Can I appeal my dismissal after admitting gross misconduct? Police officer

[advice_needed]

Hi, I'm obviously trying to go through other channels but really would appreciate some advice from anyone who can help.

 

Up until recently I was a Police officer (PC) - This does not mean I know every bit of the law inside out and certainly not employment law.

 

I've recently been dismissed at a misconduct hearing after admitting gross misconduct.

 

I feel I have grounds for appeal but It's been indicated to me that due to the fact that I admitted gross misconduct, I now CAN'T appeal the sanction of dismissal to the Police appeals tribunal. IS THIS CORRECT???

 

I've copied below a part exert from the Police appeals tribunal rules 2008 - The bit in red is what I'm interested in because there is a part where it says 'A police officer may not appeal to a tribunal against the finding referred to in paragraph(2)(a), (b) or © where that finding was made following acceptance by the officer that his conduct amounted to misconduct or gross misconduct (as the case may be).

 

The bit in red lists 3 circumstances (the grounds for appeal under this rule are) 1. where the sanction was unfair, 2 new evidence has come to light or 3 a breach of procedures -

 

I believe that the sanction was unfair and also that there was a breach of process so my question is ..

 

CAN I APPEAL THE SANCTION on those 2 grounds even after admitting gross misconduct???

 

Circumstances in which a police officer may appeal to a tribunal

 

4.

 

 

 

 

—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), a police officer to whom paragraph (2) applies may appeal to a

 

tribunal in reliance on one or more of the grounds of appeal referred to in paragraph (4) against—

(a) the finding referred to in paragraph (2)(a), (b) or © made under the Conduct Regulations;

 

or

 

(b) the disciplinary action, if any, imposed under the Conduct Regulations in consequence of

 

that finding,

 

or both.

 

(2) This paragraph applies to—

 

(a) an officer other than a senior officer against whom a finding of misconduct or gross

 

misconduct has been made at a misconduct hearing; or

 

(b) a senior officer against whom a finding of misconduct or gross misconduct has been

 

made at a misconduct meeting or a misconduct hearing; or

 

© an officer against whom a finding of gross misconduct has been made at a special case

 

hearing.

 

(3) A police officer may not appeal to a tribunal against the finding referred to in paragraph

 

(2)(a), (b) or © where that finding was made following acceptance by the officer that his conduct

 

amounted to misconduct or gross misconduct (as the case may be).

 

(4) The grounds of appeal under this rule are—

 

(a) that the finding or disciplinary action imposed was unreasonable; or

 

(b) that there is evidence that could not reasonably have been considered at the original

 

hearing which could have materially affected the finding or decision on disciplinary

 

action; or

 

© that there was a breach of the procedures set out in the Conduct Regulations, the Police

 

(Complaints and Misconduct) Regulations 2004(

 

 

 

 

a), Schedule 3 to the Police Reform Act

 

2002(

 

 

 

b) or other unfairness which could have materially affected the finding or decision

 

on disciplinary action.

 

 

 

THANKYOU very much for taking the time to read this any quick responses would be unbelievably appreciated.

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Wel it certainly seems from the wording that you can't appeal.

I find that this is extrordinaliry unfair because it doesn't allow for degrees of misconduct or for the circusmatnces to be taken into consideration.

It fetters discretion and removes the right of appeal which I would have thought was a human rights issue.

 

Therefore, I would be contacting the union to see if there are other ways of dealing with it.

 

I don't know what the rules are for the police. Are you prevented from going to an Industrial Tribunal?

If your dismissal is unfair then an IT would have th power to make its own decision regardless of the internal police rules.

I can imagine that if the police thought that their inernal rules were coing to be criticised by an IT, that they would pay out rather than contest it. However it wouldn't prevent your dismissal.

If the jurisdiction of an IT was excluded by some statute or other, then I have noe idea what further action you could take

[Emmzzi]

This is not a human rights issue.

 

The police have several clauses which do not apply to general public roles and this is one of them. Falls under "you had the right to research it before you took the job or committed the offense."

 

Your problem is that having admitted a gross misconduct, and one of the common sanctions for a gross misconduct being dismissal, that falls within the range of "reasonable things an employer would do." So unless half a dozen other PCs in identical circumstances were given a lesser sanction and your union knows about this and will support you - you are not going to get anywhere. And there are very rarely identical circumstances.

 

(they are also now called ETs not ITs)

[Emmzzi]

ps if you did not do it why did you admit it?

 

if you did do it why do you feel you should not be sanctioned?

[lbruk]

You can always appeal, the ACAS guidelines to Disciplinary and Grievance procedures allow you to appeal in all circumstances.

 

After you have admitted the gross misconduct, I would not expect the appeal to be successful unless you have some major mitigating issues. I am guessing that you are appealing the decision rather than the circumstances that led to a disciplinary meeting. If you can argue that what you did was wrong, but the wrong decision was made to dismiss you and you believe you should have been given a warning or something etc.

 

The Police still have to abide by the employment laws, I would speak to ACAS to get the decision "from the horses mouth" so to speak. Meanwhile - i do not believe you have anything to loose by sending an appeal in?

[elche]

Hi advice needed,

 

Sorry to hear about your dismissal. I must admit I thought it was very rare (mainly discrim issues) that a police officer could complain to an ET .

 

This is because a PC, "...is not an 'employee' within ERA 1996; he is not even a 'worker' within TULR©A 1992 or other recent legislation. But by special enactment a police officer is deemed employed by his chief constable or by his police authority for the purposes of the SDA 1975 (s 17) and the RRA 1976 (s 16).. "

 

I would contact your Union.

 

Best of luck

 

Che

[madari]

Hi

 

The best thing to do would be to seek Independend legal advice and also get your local Parliamentary MP involved.

 

Also ,If you were paying subscriptions to the Police Federation then they should provide all legal assistance including representation.

 

I suggest that you also contact the Independent Police support group on:

0844 504 1832

 

Good luck

Edited June 21, 2012 by madari

[advice_needed]

Hi all,

 

Thank you very much for your constructive comments. Yes I it the decision/sanction of dismissal that I wish to appeal and not the circumstances.

 

Bascially I have received a criminal conviction (I do not wish to go into details) but it is not a conviction that would automatically preclude me from being a police officer i.e. It not a matter of dishonesty, serious violent crime etc. In my Police force alone, I know that there are roughly around 40 officers in the last 6 or so years that have received the same conviction and kept their jobs & received lesser sanctions, written warning, final written warning and pre 2008 reduction in rank, fine. Again pre 2008 there were some officers required to resign and also officers that did appeal to the relevant police authority after dismissal who got their jobs back, surely some of these officers admitted to misconduct or gross misconduct? There are also officer that have lost their jobs over this matter or who have resigned.

 

The bottom line is that at a Police misconduct hearing you are always most likely to lose your job but I would hope at and idependant appeal, they would be more considerate to all of the individual circumstances and previous good character.

 

If I can appeal then I need to do this within 10 working days.

 

If you will, would you please have a look at these 2 links as I now believe I am on to something, from the wording it looks as if I can't appeal against the finding of gross misconduct as I admitted it but I can appeal against the disciplinary outcome/action/sanction (in this case dismissal)

 

Please let me know if you agree??

 

LINK1

CAN'T POST LIINK! This is a link to The Police appeals tribunal rules 2008 some of what I posted in my orignal post and it is mainly point 4 which makes it looks as if I have an impossible task of being able to appeal in the first instance??

 

LINK2

CAN'T POST LINK - The relevant part is the first or top attachment at the bottom of the page (ANNEX C) it is home office guidance on the police appeals tribunal and again the wording suggests that I can appeal against the outcome?

 

To save time for you, I've past the relevant part of the 2nd link below.

 

2. Scope

2.1 A police officer has a right of appeal to a Police Appeals Tribunal against any disciplinary finding and/or disciplinary outcome imposed at a misconduct hearing or special case hearing held under the Police (Conduct) Regulations 2008. Senior police officers, in addition, have the right to appeal to a Police Appeals Tribunal against any disciplinary finding and/oroutcome imposed at a misconduct meeting. A police officer may not appeal to a tribunal against a finding of misconduct or gross misconduct where that findingwas made following acceptance by the officer that his or her conduct amounted to misconduct or gross misconduct (as the case may be).

Please let me know your thoughts?

 

EMMZZI - I've admitted gross misconduct by virtue of the fact that I've received a criminal conviction, I do believe I should be sanctioned but I do not believe dismissal is fair given due regard to all of the circumstances and that is what I'd like to appeal/argue.

 

I've just got a message stating that I can't post a link as I'm a new users with less then 10 posts but have posted the relevant section anyway. If anyone is interested, it will take a couple of mins to go to the home office website and go to circular 26 of 2008

 

Thanks very much

[madari]

The best thing to do is do what I suggested earlier [above] and lodge an appeal on the grounds that you have stated above.

 

What have you got to lose???

[Emmzzi]

have you exhausted the entire pre-tribunal options open to you?

[advice_needed]

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by 'pre-tribunal options,' please explain?

 

Thanks

[Emmzzi]

We have established that police guidelines say you cannot go to tribunal

 

Are there any appeal options open to you before tribunal? Like a "stage one appeal"?

[advice_needed]

I will look into it but after dismissal, I don't believe there are any options available other the police appeals tribunal, certainly nothing in between. There may well be options after a tribunal or failed appeal at some higher level or MP involvment which I'm also looking into

 

Post #8 of this thread, I've stated that I now believe that the police guidelines will allow me to appeal the disciplinary outcome (dismissal) but not the finding of gross misconduct, from the bit I've pasted in post 8 which is 2. scope, do you agree?

 

Cheers

[lbruk]

I honestly would just appeal and see how they reply for now.

[Emmzzi]

you need help from someone versed in this very specifc bit of HR. Unlessa police HR person or lawyer is here (unlikely) you really are better off with madari's suggestion above.

[Ell-enn]

Surely if there are instances of other police officers keeping their jobs after the same gross misconduct then the police force are not being consistent in their treatment - you could appeal on those grounds perhaps ?

[stu007]

Hi

 

This PDF is the explanatory memorandum Police:

 

Also I know you probably dont want to name what force you are on an open forum so just type you force with disciplinary procedures into a search engine and see what that brings up as done this myself and was confronted with virtually all the different forces individual procedures.

Edited June 21, 2012 by stu007

[gaznat123]

Hi

 

been there and still going through it, I was dismissed in April 12 and currently appealing to the PAT. I didn't admit anything (nothing to admit to), had no previous misconduct (20 years), off duty incident, never suspended, no days sick in 7 years initially assessed as NFA only for senior management in PSD to change it and a subsquent hearing in which I was instantly dismissed by the ACC whom wasn't the chair but more like the prosecutor! Barristor stated in 20 yrs he has seen nothing like it. I and many others in total shock and believe this was nothing more but to help balance the books.

 

It does appear since 2008 regs have come into Force it makes it much harder to appeal or at least get an appeal, we are not employees and have little on our sife. If they want to make it stick they will, budget cuts = more dismissals!

[advice_needed]

Hi,

 

Thanks for replying to my post, am fairly new to this forum so am unable to private msg you as my post count is only 5 but just wondered if I could ask you what force you were dismissed from and what grounds you are using at the PAT, are you being funded by the fedration? I've just put in my notice of appeal (within 10 working days of written confirmation of dismissal) and am awaiting the transcript before submitting my grounds for appeal.

 

Also wondered what reasons were given for your dismissal and what reading you blew on the EBM?

 

 

 

Would be interested in talking to you.

[gaznat123]

Hi

 

I have tried to send you private email address so we could speak private but post wont let me, dont really want to discuss my reasons for appeal on line etc. My barrister has put grounds in for all 3 areas, and I was not covered by the fed as I was off duty, but I had Group accident scheme via ARC legal that covered the hearing cost (£5000+). I have had to pay £600 for advice on my grounds to the barrister as this was not covered but if I get a PAT this will be covered. I was not drink drive, the force is the Northest one in England!

 

cheers

[papasmurf1cx]

Hi

 

What has the Federation said about it all? Normally if there is an element of unfairness about the sanction they will help out.

 

The post of Constable is deemed to be an 'office holder' which is why there are separate regulations governing Police. In my experience sanctions can be different from case to case even if the actual disciplinary offence is the same. In your case the mere fact that you were convicted of a criminal offence in the magistrates court, the disciplinary offence is the fact you were convicted. They could not do you for the facts around the act of criminality so they make the act of conviction for that act the reason they discipline you.

 

All that means is that story behind that conviction becomes relevant to the matter of sanctions, hence why one officer keeps his job but you have lost yours. Obviously the facts around your story is relevant, and that might actually just mean that your CC has toughened his stance against his staff that err. As gaznat says you are an easy target when the CC has to find budget cuts.

 

My advice, if the Federation are not backing you, get out and devote your energy into your own business. You will be amazed with what you can achieve.

[gaznat123]

ps - after 6 months and Northumbria police throwing thier might at trying to fight my appeal, I have one!!

[Sidewinder]

Good news - let us know how it goes!

[gaznat123]

update - believe it or not still waiting for PAT, 4 months after agreed with no set date!!

[billybobynumeroduo]

Hi Gaznat123,

 

just wondering how you managed to extract £5k out of Arc legal?

 

I have another thread on here, questioning their limit on claims. the policy wording states upto £50k cover, so when my employment claim was accepted by arc they only gave me a £1500 limit, which is pretty useless really.

 

Just wondering how they calculated £5k for your claim, be interested to know.

 

Cheers

 

BB