@santanderbankgb Santander Consumer Finance Issued Termination After Defective Default Notice - car finance

[BelstarBomb]

Sorry CB, only just noticed your other post.

 

I received the DN, wrote to them with a customer complaint, heard nothing and then got the Termination Notice.

 

Credit Style then contacted us and said that they would get SCF to confirm in writing what he had just told me. We assumed that it would also respond to our complaint but it hasn't.

 

SCF have another 4 weeks to respond to our complaint but the letter received today states that if we don't pay the amount now (arrears and fees), they will ask Credit Style to return the case to them and start legal action for the return of the car.

 

My feeling is to write to them stating that from the statements we have received that we still feel that the discount they have given us (good will gesture or otherwise) is incorrect as there many months where more than one fee was levied. In the same letter ask for a response to our letter of complaint sent and received by them as well as enclose a SAR.

 

If SCF were 100% sure of their position I find it hard to believe that they would happily waive 50% of fees that they feel are/were legitimate???

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

CB what you say makes perfect sense - thank you.

 

I've also noticed on the letter received today that they are stating that the arrears are now £250 less than that shown on the DN and verbally by Credit Style so something is not adding up here.

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

Hi Guys,

 

Finally have some movement and wanted to get your advice before we now right to the FOS.

 

We decided to pay the outstanding arrears at the time as we thought that if we were correct in that the DN and subsequent TN were incorrect, we would be in a better position to argue our position if it goes to court.

 

SCF still did not officially acknowledge or respond to our first complaint or confirmed in writing that the agreement was 'un-terminated' and we heard nothing until about a month ago, when we had another default notice for the balloon payment.

 

We wrote saying we were still waiting for a response and acknowledgement to our original complaint but here's another complaint letter for you anyway. We again laid out our reasons as to why we believe the two DN's they sent were incorrect and the subsequent TN unenforceable. We made our payment for the SAR and also requested a CPR 31.14 as legal action was threatened.

 

We got our acknowledgement and a week or so later got a response simply confirming the basics of what had logistically happened. There was no response to or evidence to back up why they were right and we were wrong on the defective DN's. Further, they wrote in their response that we had asked them if we could pay half the fees which is a downright lie. They did not state the letter was their final response so we wrote back asking them to answer our questions fully by investigating our concerns properly. We also stated that the agent who said we had made the offer was lying and we wanted that investigated in full too. We pointed out that the DCA was at pains to say that all calls are recorded and that any transcript will be able to confirm what actually was said.

 

We have yet to receive a reply to that letter, but in the meantime, we have received another termination notice and today a letter saying we have 5 days to pay otherwise collection action will start.

 

The letter received today broke the amount down as £10000 + £500 fees owing. yet the DN and TN both show a combined figure of £10,500

 

The SAR is not complete and does not include the information we asked for which was copies of the DN's and original TN. Nor does it include a copy of the communication between SCF and CSL as well as the requested recordings/ transcripts.

 

The screen printout supplied only shows one DN, no subsequent DN or TN at all which I find most surprising as if neither were issued, why was the account passed to CSL. Again, transcripts of the phone calls and communication between SCF and CSL would show this.

 

It also showed late payments of £20 and £25 - same description but different figures sometimes twice in a month. Having looked through our pile of documentation, there's nothing in there from SCF saying that they were upping/changing the fees.

 

If I didn't know better, I'd think that information was being doctored! Is there something that I can ask for for them to double check and let me know?

 

I am about to write to SCF again asking them to supply ALL the information that was asked for as per my SAR and will also enclose a copy of the letter to the FOS which is what is leading me to my question.

 

From experience, I know that the FOS will only give you the answer that you want, if ask them to become involved to decide on a particular aspect of your complaint. I suppose a focussed request is the term I'm looking for.

 

I believe that SCF has messed up on so many points that they have no legal right to take further action to take back the car.

 

What should I be asking the FOS to strengthen my position so that they agree with me?

 

SCF have also suggested that I refer my complaint to the Finance & Leasing Association. If I do, can I simply copy the letter I write to the FOS or will that need to be written from a different perspective?

 

Would really welcome your insight to this as I feel they are doing their best to shaft me, trying to hide their mess ups and want to make sure that at the very least, I'm armed well enough to give them a good bop on the nose!

 

many thanks,

 

Bel

[citizenB]

Ok, you wont received "copies" of the Default or Termination Notices - these are templated letters where variables are then inserted. These should show as being sent on their communications logs. The main problem I have with this method is that, when faced with the questions.. did you enclose the OFT fact sheet (mandatory), did you allow the mandatory 14 days (with allowance for posting) to remedy the breach - what was the sum asked for to remedy the breach, they cannot be answered honestly.

 

Unless the debtor has a physical copy of the notice, the company can (upon knowing where they might have screwed up) amend the information to make it compliant !

 

I would say that you could use the same information for both the FOS and the FLA as the outcome required by you will be the same whoever you make the complaint to IYKWIM.

 

Yes, if there were any material changes to the terms and conditions - eg increase in charges - you should have been informed at least 30 days before they were put into effect.

 

 

So.. back to the SAR - do not expect to receive copies of the DN and TN. However, you should be able to obtain transcripts/copies of the recorded calls - IMHO, the company knows there is a dispute and to have destroyed any call recordings would look a bit suspicious.

 

If you made an official complaint - they are obliged to respond within 8 weeks or advise if they require more time. If they cannot or will not address your complaint, then you should be given a Final Response letter.

 

I do not understand why they have issued a further Default Notice - is this because you made payment and as such would have remedied any breach !

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks CB,

 

In writing to both bodies, do I ask them to get SCF to answer all my points fully and completely and leave it at that or do I ask them to confirm my belief that that as they terminated on a defective DN, as we paid the arrears and fees at the time of the TN, they have no recourse to claim any further payment for the car?

 

They said that if we paid the arrears, they would let the agreement continue however, we had nothing in writing to confirm that the agreement was un-terminated or that it was running again. But they still haven't answered my question as to how a terminated agreement can be un-terminated. If they could do that willy nilly, everyone would surely be shafted all the time.

 

Further, the new DN that they have sent includes late payment fees as does the TN.

 

I think the main point that I need to be sure on is the re-instatement of the agreement after a dodgy DN and TN and see if there are already any legal cases that can be used as an example. Do you know of any!??!

 

Thanks,

 

bel

[BelstarBomb]

To clarify, the arrears were paid AFTER the agreement was terminated

[citizenB]

Hmm, dunno the the answer to your question then BB. I will ask for you

[citizenB]

Thinking about it a bit more - if the agreement was terminated.. then there is nothing to issue a Default notice against. Unless of course they believe the agreement endures.. when it obviously doesnt !!

[BelstarBomb]

My thoughts and contention exactly. Logically, it doesn't stack up.

 

Even if they did try to un-terminate, to do so would need our agreement/signature on a new credit agreement surely???

 

But hard cold facts are what will win this so I will await your response!

 

Thanks again CB

 

Bel

[42man]

Have a read of this - you will find this interesting - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?170345-A-Tale-of-a-Dodgy-DN

[BelstarBomb]

Have just taken a quick read and it is very interesting.

 

My main question though is this. In paying the arrears as requested by SCF after termination have I agreed to it's reinstatement?

 

Or is my argumentat that we paid them to stretngthen our position as we paid the arrears at termination sufficient? Hope that makes sense??

 

Also should re-instatement be formal - ie letter in writing etc to say 'this agreement has now been reinstatement. Did you know that Mr Customer, and are you aware of the ramifications of such?' or the like?

 

Thanks Bel

[citizenB]

I think that they would need to properly formalise a new agreement, which presumably you wouldnt agree to ?

[BelstarBomb]

Hi CB,

 

No we wouldn't agree to re-formalise the agreement!

 

As I see it, we have absolutely nothing to lose so might as well go for it - just want to make sure that we have everything stacked up to go in our favour as much as possible.

 

Thanks again for you and 42man's help.

 

Will write tomorrow and keep you posted with the outcome.

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

One quick one - is there a specific part of the CCA that relates to what can and can't be included in the calculations when creating a DN notice?

 

As my whole argument rests on this, I would like to quote the act specifically if I can.

 

Cheers,

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

Just had a brainwave.

 

SCF have agreed that on numerous occassions they duplicated late payment fees on more than one occassion. Having checked our paperwork, including the last time it's been at least 3 times.

 

They refunded the over charged amount but it dawned on me that they had calculated interest on the whole amount which included the fees. They have never refunded me the interest that was charged on the late payment fees.

 

Therefore, the amounts quoted on the DN and TN include incorrect fees so as far as I can see, there is no issue as to the fact the original DN is defective.

 

What do you think?

 

Bel

[citizenB]

BB, I will try and find andyorch for you.. he might be able to assist with the legal stuff.

[citizenB]

I dont know why.. but I thought there was a court hearing tomorrow.. I think I must have seriously lost the plot.

 

Before you start firing off letters.. can you hold tight until I can find some information regarding the DN.. please

 

Ta

[BelstarBomb]

Will do!

 

Thanks again CB,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

i'd p'haps put in a reclaim for all the PENALTY charges too

 

dx

[dx100uk]

One quick one - is there a specific part of the CCA that relates to what can and can't be included in the calculations when creating a DN notice?

 

As my whole argument rests on this, I would like to quote the act specifically if I can.

 

Cheers,

 

Bel

 

try this

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks DX,

 

Could you just clarify the following for me?

 

• As I have been refunded the duplicated late payment fees how/why should I claim back all the fees? Or do you mean the interest that wasn't refunded on the overpayment?
  
• What are your thoughts on my contention that as the interest charged on the duplicated late payment fees wasn't refunded, on its own make any DN incorrect?
  

 

Many thanks,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

whether or not they refund the 'fees' the dn is still invalid on atleast that front

there might be others too.

 

i thought you have 'lots' of fees dating back over a longer period too?

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Hi DX,

 

Have written to the FOS and also sent a copy of the letter to SCF.

 

In it I have pointed out the interest on the duplicated late payment fees that were never refunded and the implications on the overall balance, the adding of the late payment fees including them as arrears (double checked and went boss eyed on the calculator - they 110% have added everything together, put it on the DN and called it arrears!). I mentioned the ICO's pdf that you referred me to as well as the CCA 1978 and Woodchester & Swain

 

I also stated that SCF should have done more to ensure my rights were properly protected if they felt the agreement was to continue by formalising something in writing or advisiing me to get additional legal advice, something which they obviously didn't.

 

I finished off by asking for the return of the interest on the duplicated payments +8%

 

Having just received a letter giving me 5 days to pay up or else, I have also asked the FOS to get SCF to halt any legal action whilst this is being investigated.

 

So we will see what comes out in the wash!

 

I am more than happy for this to go to court as I know I am right and that if keep on digging, I'll uncover the cock ups that I believe SCF to be trying to cover up.

 

Thank you for your help and advice as well as 42man and CitizenB - I'll keep you posted.

 

Bel

[BelstarBomb]

Hi All,

 

Hope you all had a good summer - don't quite know where the time has gone!

 

Anyway, the FOS wrote to us in August that they would need at least 12 weeks to investigate our complaint and write back to us with their decision and we haven't heard anything else since from either them or Santander.

 

However today, we received from Santander a Notice of Arrears sums showing the balloon payment for the car.

 

Does this mean the FOS have given them a heads up on their decision?

As we instigated the complaint, should we be the first to be notified of their decision?

Is this a computer generated letter?

 

Thanks guys,

 

Bel

[AndyOrch]

Notice of Arrears is sent auto Belstar in line with the CCA2006 amendments.Its a legal requirement if they intend to charge interest.

 

Andy