Car towed from unclear suspended bay with sign not visible

[Jamberson]

Your letter is absolutely crazy. Do you understand it? I don't. You seem to be saying there was no sign, but if there was it was facing the wrong way, and it was covered up and it was non-compliant. So did you see the sign or not? It's there in the photos.

 

If you decide to carry on with the appeal, I would suggest writing in plain language. Just tell them why you are appealing and forget all this pseudo-legal jargon.

[tgls]

Too late, the pseudo-legal jargon was already sent and yes I did understand it before I sent it.

 

I never claimed there was no sign. I said it wasn't seen due to its location as the approach was from the road before it. Also, the sign was 2-3 spaces away from the suspended area and not close enough to the suspended area for it to be seen. And finally, the sign facing the road was non-compliant and the compliant sign was facing away from the road as in there were two different signs. All that is clear in the representation. The signs are also in my photos that I took but that's not the issue here.

[Jamberson]

Understood. What you just said makes perfect sense. It's a shame you didn't write something like that in your letter to the council, but as you say - what's done is done.

 

Others will no doubt advise what you do from here. If your arguments are correct, you still have a good case to fight.

[HYMN AND MI]

Personal is always best as they do not attend and you can argue your case. Please post up the NOR as there may well be something wrong with it.

[tgls]

The NOR is in the same pdf above. Last 2 pages before the photos they sent

[HYMN AND MI]

Yes, sorry, just noticed that after I posted but cannot these days seem to edit anything!

[HYMN AND MI]

Well I have quickly read and it is obvious they have not responded to all your points especially 3(2)(b).

[HYMN AND MI]

Register Kept Under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators)(London) Regulations 1993, as amended or Paragraph 21 of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, as applicable

 

 

 

Case Reference:2090397156 Appellant:Mr Graham William Stubbs Authority:Westminster VRM:R802ETX PCN:WM55857032 Contravention Date:14 Jun 2009 Contravention Time:00:50 Contravention Location:Rathbone Place Penalty Amount:£120.00 Contravention:Failing to comply with a sign indicating a prohibited turn Decision Date:31 Oct 2009 Adjudicator:Andrew Harman Appeal Decision:Allowed Direction:cancel the Penalty Charge Notice. Reasons:The Appellant appeared before me today accompanied by Ms Campbell.

He had in his Representations in response to the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) made submissions concerning whether or not the PCN was compliant.

The Appellant submitted that the Authority had not in its Notice of Rejection addressed what he had said.

I was satisfied that this was so. I was not therefore satisfied that the Authority had considered the Appellant's Representations as in law it is required to do.

On hearing the Appellant on the point I was not satisfied that the information given on the PCN as to the date by which Representations should be made was correct. Paragraph 1 (3) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that, in effect, the recipient of a PCN has 28 days from the date of service of the PCN in which to make Representations. The PCN in this case stated that the 28 days commenced with the date of notice thereby I found shortening the time period in which Representations could be made. The penalty charge was not therefore I found for this reason enforceable.

The appeal was for the reasons given allowed.

[tgls]

Excellent.

 

I think the following is sufficient then?

 

Firstly it is necessary to bring to the adjudicator’s attention that the council did not give proper consideration to my formal representations. My representations raised 4 reasonable and comprehensive points. The council’s consideration wholly ignores the substance of these 4 points. I feel the authority in its Notice of Rejection had not addressed anything I’d said. I therefore feel that the authority did not consider my representation as in law it is required to do. The council’s Notice of Rejection appears to be a generic template. Had the council given proper consideration then perhaps adjudication would have been unnecessary. The lack of attention towards the representation is evident in the Notice of Rejection not only with no consideration to my points but also in my name being spelt incorrectly.

 

That's it really.

 

If there's anything else in anyone's experience that I should add or leave out, please let me know as I'll probably complete this tonight and post it tomorrow. Thanks again to those who took out time for me. You're heroes

[HYMN AND MI]

Quote the case number.

[HYMN AND MI]

You do n ot need to go into detail - just register your appeal to PATAS and give full details later i.e. in P.I. box.

[tgls]

Thanks. case reference 2090397156 will be quoted.

 

Sorry about this but do I simply put it like: "I therefore feel that the authority did not consider my representation as in law it is required to do (please see case reference 209039715)."

[HYMN AND MI]

I think what you have written is fine, just add the case number for extra punch in your own style.

[HYMN AND MI]

I would leave out the name issue.

[TheBogsDollocks]

You should make it clear in your appeal to the adjudicator that you want them to consider those points raised in your formal representations otherwise he/she may only consider the improper consideration point as that is the only gripe you bring to their attention.

[HYMN AND MI]

When is the deadline to appeal to PATAS?

[tgls]

Hi,

 

@H&M, NOR date: 02/04/2012 so 28 days would be end of this month.

 

@tbd: Does the following not cover this? As in the fact that I didn't get any response to the points made in my formal representation?

 

Firstly it is necessary to bring to the adjudicator’s attention that the council did not give proper consideration to my formal representations. My representations raised 4 reasonable and comprehensive points. The council’s consideration wholly ignores the substance of these 4 points. I feel the authority in its Notice of Rejection had not addressed anything I’d said. I therefore feel that the authority did not consider my representation as in law it is required to do. The council’s Notice of Rejection appears to be a generic template. Had the council given proper consideration then perhaps adjudication would have been unnecessary. The lack of attention towards the representation is evident in the Notice of Rejection not only with no consideration to my points but also in my name being spelt incorrectly.

 

Unless I didn't understand what you mean?

[HYMN AND MI]

May 1st. You count day one as the 4th. Deemed date of service.

[tgls]

Update:

 

After receiving the rejection letter to the initial detailed appeal that they completely ignored, I wrote to PATAS with the enclosed form by the help of this and another forum.

 

I've attached the appeal letter here as well as the recent reply from Newham Council saying THE FULL AMOUNT of £265 WILL BE REFUNDED.

 

They started with "After further investigation..."

 

What?????? So do you ever check ANYONE's appeal?

 

I strongly believe they have a generic template that they first send back as a default response and so many must fall for it as it sounds air-tight. Then as we took it further, PATAS then send it back to the council to see if they agree of wish for it to be taken further at which point they actually read it. Beware of the Newham Council Legalised Daylight Robbery [problem].

 

I am posting this to thank everyone who replied to this thread. You're all part of the victory. Then again, the money isn't back in my hands yet so I don't even trust the letter fully as it says "Newham London" at the top.

 

Edit: Forgot about the stupid image resizing

(click for letter)

PCNtowing-adjudication.doc

Edited May 24, 2012 by tgls

[pfozz]

Hi TGLS, Congratulations on your victory. I was wondering if you would mind taking a quick look at my post as we are fighting what looks like a very similar case:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?426853-Car-Towed-Suspended-Bay-Sign-Unclear&p=4555626#post4555626

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. e.g. would you mind sharing your appeal letter?

 

Thx.