Cap1 & CCA return

[Jeff2000]

Right, here you go, then;

 

yep at the end I walked away it was cancelled and I havent had to pay anything to them again

 

 

 

 

Ditto!

[enoughisenough]

and it's a dead certain that crap one were around 2000.

 

Morning peeps and thanks for this excellent thread. In respect of the above quote I dealt with the vicious capquest who refuse to answer the very simple question - have you purchased the debt or are you acting as collection agents?

 

They want 28 days to sort themselves out. They can have it as far as I am concerned. In the meantime cap one have sent me a perfectly pristine copy freshly printed copy of wait for it....their terms and conditions. Not even an application form with my signature on it.

 

In terms of next steps.

 

Do I even bother dealing with capquest or just go back to cap one? I got the standard letter from Crap 1 saying this is your original agreement etc, obviously nothing of the sort.

 

Also they say that under s.78:

 

"We are notrequired to provide a copy of the default notice and statement of default.

 

This is baloney, right? Doesn't matter though because I've got it somewhere.

 

The offence of not providing upon request.

 

Can someone clarify whether this offence is a civil or criminal offence? I think civil but had read somewhere that it is a criminal offence. I just want to be sure.

 

thanks...looks like I've got them already, but obviously a couple of more letters.

 

Finally, if it turns out to be unenforceable and I end up going to court over this to get the defaults removed, can I get back everything I've paid in? Not looking at this yet but would just like to know one way or the other.

 

Keep the faith. EiE.

[car2403]

This is the usual process of dealing with these requests from Cap 1 - suggest you have a read through the Cap 1 forums and search for others that have gone before you, as we're well versed in this one...

[SteveH2508]

Also they say that under s.78:

 

"We are notrequired to provide a copy of the default notice and statement of default.

 

This is baloney, right? Doesn't matter though because I've got it somewhere.

 

The offence of not providing upon request.

 

Can someone clarify whether this offence is a civil or criminal offence? I think civil but had read somewhere that it is a criminal offence. I just want to be sure.

 

They are correct re S78 and the DN.

 

The 'offence' of not providing a copy agreement under S77/78 was repealed a couple of years ago.

[car2403]

If they intend on taking you to Court, they must have the Default Notice and Termination Notice to satisfy s.87/s.88 or their claim will fail.

 

Try using CPR to uncover what they do/do not have, exactly.

[enoughisenough]

Thanks guys.

 

Ive paid them 10 grand plus on what looks like being an unenforceable agreement. If I ask for this back (ha ha!) am I making a big mistake?

[car2403]

I think you need to read through this thread, EIE;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/84285-ccas-dave-against-world.html

 

It's a long one, but talks about restitution and the dangers and pitfalls of seeking it.

 

I personally think it's very dodgy, but there are members that believe it's possible (there's even some caselaw to back it up) but I wouldn't go for it myself.

[enoughisenough]

Thanks Chris

 

have read like a demon. It is indeed an excellent thread. I noticed the fraud act creeping in around page 20 but didn't get past about page 28. There's extensive debate on another thread about the fraud act in relation to mortgage securitisation. I was just wondering whether the wholesale absence of the original CCAs could be due to selling consumer debt on in the form of CDOs? Is the fraud act worth a mention or is it too risky in your eyes.

[car2403]

It all depends what you want to achieve.

 

I'm no consumer champion, believe it or not, so I'm happy with an unenforceable debt being written off.

 

If you feel you want to go for damages to credit reputation, or restitution, as you've suggested, then I wish you luck with it and will be interested to see the outcome. I do feel, though, that a Judge would have a hard time awarding that, despite the fact he can - and probably should - so I would leave well alone.

[Onslowette]

Hi,

Im nopt sure if Im posting on the right thread or not... so apologies if Im in the wrong place!

 

Id appreciate some help/advice as still quite new to all this!

 

I sent a CCA request letter and £1 payment to Marshall ward. They cashed cheque and applied the £1 as a payment to my account. Received a letter dated 19 June saying they were "looking into my complaint." On 13th July I wrote to them and sent the time up letter and informing them account is now in dispute. I then received a letter on 21st July stating "Thank you for your letterof 13.07.09 concerning your complaint in relation to your signed credit agreement. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused you." Then goes on to say they will be in contact once a full investigation of my concerns has been made.

Since then I have recieved yet another monthly statement.

 

What do I do now? Pay now and sit and wait to hear something or send another letter......if so what do I put as I cant seem to find a template letter (or am I just being dim?). Im also receiving default charges whilst this is going on.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Liz Southern]

Right, here you go, then;

 

yep at the end I walked away it was cancelled and I havent had to pay anything to them again

 

 

Hi Peeps,

 

Amex, me too. Circa £19,000 unenforceable.

 

Regards

Liz.

[Liz Southern]

Thanks guys.

 

Ive paid them 10 grand plus on what looks like being an unenforceable agreement. If I ask for this back (ha ha!) am I making a big mistake?

 

Hi Enoughisenough,

 

You have two choices. Add up all your payments for the lifetime of your account plus 30% interest on each payment from when it was made to today (or just before you send your letter off to them). You can get a spreadsheet to do this. OR; add up all their charges during the lifetime of your account and add 30% on each charge, from when it was made to today (etc).

 

Pick whichever is the larger amount. If the charges and interest is the larger sum, add this to your payments (without interest on your payments) and write a letter to the creditor. "As this agreement was unenforceable from inception, you should not have applied charges thereto. I require in reparation (or you can put 'restitution') for harassment, stress and intimidation the amount of £ (total amount you are claiming). I also require that you delete any negative entries you have made on my credit reference account, and confirm that your file is now closed."

 

 

If the amount you paid is the larger sum, add this plus interest plus their charges without interest together, and ask for that.

 

Okay, EIE?

 

Regards

Liz

Edited August 2, 2009 by Liz Southern
punctuation

[Liz Southern]

Hi,

I sent a CCA request letter and £1 payment to Marshall ward. They cashed cheque and applied the £1 as a payment to my account.

 

They had no right to do that. The £1 was for no other purpose. You need to write and tell them that.

 

Received a letter dated 19 June saying they were "looking into my complaint." On 13th July I wrote to them and sent the time up letter and informing them account is now in dispute. I then received a letter on 21st July stating "Thank you for your letterof 13.07.09 concerning your complaint in relation to your signed credit agreement. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused you." Then goes on to say they will be in contact once a full investigation of my concerns has been made.

 

Did you write the word "complaint" in your letter? If you did you have to wait for them to reply to your complaint. If you didn't, and it was purely a CCA request then look at my reply to Enoughisenough above, and do the same.

 

Since then I have recieved yet another monthly statement. Just add up their charges plus 30% interest.

/quote]

Regards

Liz

Edited August 2, 2009 by Liz Southern
spacing

[enoughisenough]

Hi Liz

 

I take your advice in good stead. However I'm puzzled and undecided what I want to achieve.

 

I've added up everything I paid into the account and it's actually colossal. Just shy of 20K rather than the 10K I stated yesterday. Even at statutory this comes to a whopping 28k and doesn't even include all the unlawful charges that have been levied.

 

if I divide 27.9% by 365 and put the resulting figure into the spreadsheet is that the correct way of doing it? If it is the figures are staggering. They are surely not going to just hand that over are they?

 

I originally did say I wanted 28 grand back but have baulked at that because other caggers have said that I might be entitled to ask for all the interest applied instead. Also isn't there a case that they could argue that I enjoyed use of the card and deduct all payments/usage out from the figure? Any idea of the lawfulness of such an argument. I mean the whole agreement is uneneforceable and I think common law seeks to put both parties back to where they were. Is this right?

 

I'm just trying to get this clear before I proceed. It's one thing having it written off. It's quite another ball park stiffing them for tens of thousands. (Nice thought though considering they don't give a stuff for ruining people's lives). They'd surely fight this all the way and the costs could be enormous. Are there any high court or Court of Appeal authorities on this?

[enoughisenough]

if I divide 27.9% by 365 and put the resulting figure into the spreadsheet is that the correct way of doing it? If it is the figures are staggering.

 

For example a couple of hundred quid paid 8 years ago amounts to a staggering 44K. This surely can't be right. I must be doing something wrong here.

 

Anyone got the formula or actual daily percentage rate for compound so I can put that in instead.?

[car2403]

EIE, you're stepping outside the realms of CCA's there, so I'd suggest a new thread for your particular case where you can keep it altogether.

[Onslowette]

[quote=Liz Southern;2335172

Hi Liz, Many thanks for the advice. In my last letter to them informing them account was in dispute I did state that the £1 was for no other purpose. At no point have I said to them I was making a complaint....

 

When I write back to them do I again state that account is in dispute & enclose copy of previous letter? This all gets very complicated!

[enoughisenough]

Hi Chris

 

EIE, you're stepping outside the realms of CCA's there, so I'd suggest a new thread for your particular case where you can keep it altogether

 

Fair point. I'll do this later.

 

Cheers.

[Liz Southern]

Hi Liz

 

I'm puzzled and undecided what I want to achieve.

 

Then let me decide for you!! ha ha. MONEY!! Your own back!!!

 

I've added up everything I paid into the account and it's actually colossal. Just shy of 20K rather than the 10K I stated yesterday. Even at statutory (Forget statutory.) this comes to a whopping 28k and doesn't even include all the unlawful charges that have been levied. And why is "colossal" a problem? The agreement is unenforceable and they've had your money. Don't you want it back?

 

if I divide 27.9% by 365 and put the resulting figure into the spreadsheet is that the correct way of doing it? Your columns are, amount of payment, date made, interest rate, today's date (updateable). You obviously need to multiply your daily rate by the number of days you are owed each payment amount.

 

If it is the figures are staggering. They are surely not going to just hand that over are they? It now becomes a question of compromise so you don't take them to court. They are now in the defensive position. Every time they sent you a default notice or telephoned you or wrote you a letter that was harassment. You have to believe that you are entitled to this. You state your figure, and they will settle on a lower figure, in agreement with you, but if you stick to your guns, they will settle!

 

Also isn't there a case that they could argue that I enjoyed use of the card and deduct all payments/usage out from the figure? Look at my comment above re a compromise settlement figure.

 

I mean the whole agreement is uneneforceable and I think common law seeks to put both parties back to where they were. Is this right? Forget common law. (Not often you will hear me say that.) And anyway, how can one party be put back to not having had the stress and harassment put upon them by another party? Defence: restitution. Financial settlement out-of-court.

 

It's one thing having it written off. As soon as it is unenforceable, the position is that the account/credit card/loan shouldn't have operated at all and they therefore shouldn't have taken your money.

 

stiffing them for tens of thousands. Stop thinking like this. You're still thinking like a victim. Start remembering all the nasty phone calls and letters and threats.

 

They'd surely fight this all the way. No, because you are going to make them see by negotiation that settling is going to be far less costly for them than attempting to defend a case through the courts.[/quote]

 

For those of you who I have told, I am so-oo enjoying my new job!!

 

Regards

Liz

PS And of course it's your decision, EIE - if I sound a bit bossy!:grin::grin::grin:

[Liz Southern]

[quote=Liz Southern;2335172

When I write back to them do I enclose copy of previous letter? This all gets very complicated!

No, don't make things easier for them. You don't work for them. If they're confused that's their problem.

 

Regards

Liz

[Liz Southern]

EIE

 

You are not working out compound interest. It's simple interest. number of days owed x payment amount x interest rate.

Ok?

Regards

Liz

[alisindebt]

YOU dont have to wor out anything.

 

Send this:

 

Account In Dispute

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated **DATE**, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated **DATE**. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. The supplied documentation does not constitute a true copy of a credit agreement and that which you sent doesn't even contain all the prescribed terms and is not 'properly executed'. The statements sent do not correspond to the amount stated in your earliest correspondence and therefore they do not satisfy the requirement to supply me with a statement of account.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until **12 days DATE** to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation. . You entered into a default on **12 Days DATE**

 

Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to hold a consumer credit license in the future.

 

Take further note that continued telephone calls after the receipt of a request not to call may constitute a criminal offence under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

 

Communicate in writing and ONLY in writing, your telephone calls will NOT be answered.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

So that's and opener.

 

EIE

 

You are not working out compound interest. It's simple interest. number of days owed x payment amount x interest rate.

Ok?

Regards

Liz

[Liz Southern]

YOU dont have to wor out anything.

 

So that's and opener.

 

Hi Alisindebt,

 

This advice is for Onslowette, yes, not EIE whom you have quoted?

 

EIE's matter is at the tail end and he does need to work out the final amount he may or may not decide to chase.

 

Problem is, the thread is dealing with two caggers at the same time.

 

Regards

Liz:)

[Onslowette]

Just wanted to say thank you for the help. Im still getting to grips with all this - plus Im a new mum and think lack of sleep makes things more complicated than they are!! Thank you again!

[alisindebt]

Hi Liz

 

Yes, well spotted. This is the problem with multiple issues in the same thread. Thanks for pointing it out.