£20 fine unfairly given, advice appreciated!

[zeospeed]

Hi,

 

Just would appreciate some advice regarding a fine I received today.

 

I boarded a train at Station A to get to destination C whilst changing at station B (unfortunately, my credit card was not working on the machine at station A).

 

Usually in this scenario I would pay for my ticket at destination C. When I arrived at destination C, I was confronted by a ticket inspector who said that because I didn't pay at destination B, I would be fined (despite the fact I boarded at destination A). I was happy to pay for my fair at C, but the ticket inspector refused this and fined me instead.

 

The fine notice states that I failed to pay a fare from destination B to destination C (despite the fact I boarded at A).

 

My question is could I appeal against this? In my appeal letter if I state that at station B I was advised to pay for the ticket at station C, would this suffice to win an appeal? I'm not sure exactly how the process works, but I think it is unfair that I am being fined.

 

Any Help appreciated

 

Cheers

[MrGates]

Is station A a penalty fare station? Who advised you to buy a ticket at station C when you changed at B? How would you of been able to pay if your c/c was declined at station A?

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I have to say Mr Gates is smarter than me at following the ABC parts of your post. Is there any chance you could tell us which stations please? It may help the guys here to advise you.

 

As Mr Gates has hinted, was it a fine or a penalty fare please? My understanding is that only a court can impose a fine.

 

My best, HB

[RPI]

If you travelled from a Penalty Fare station then the PF was correctly issued.

[zeospeed]

Station A: Where I boarded (this is where the ticket machine would not accept my credit card, I wanted to buy a zone 1-6 travelcard)

 

Station B: Station that I changed in order to get to my final destination (Station C).

 

Station C: My final destination. This is where I was confronted by the Ticket Inspector.

Edited October 27, 2011 by zeospeed

[MrGates]

What stations are A,B and C? You mention again you were advised at station B to purchase ticket at C, who or what advised this?

[honeybee13]

2. In my appeal can I state that I was advised at station B to pay for the fare at station C (I know this was not the case, but in an appeal would it not be my word against there's?)

 

Hello again. I fear you may have misunderstood the purpose of this forum and CAG. We're not here to help you bend the rules. It could be that you were caught bang to rights, although we may not have enough information to tell you that.

 

My best, HB

[zeospeed]

My point is, in this scenario, where I couldn't buy the ticket at my boarding station, where does it state that I have to purchase the ticket at change-over. I have never heard this rule before. If it was the case that I had to buy the ticket at change-over, there was no clear advice regarding this, and that doesn't really make any sense as this would involve me getting out of a station that I am not planning on going to. Moreover, I don't see how this is any different to purchasing a ticket at the final destination.

 

Is this correct?

Edited October 27, 2011 by zeospeed

[MrGates]

If there was an opportunity to purchase a ticket at B then you should have taken the opportunity, although if your card failed at A it would have more than likely failed at B and C aswell.

[honeybee13]

Hello again. What time of day did you travel please? I'm just wondering if you could have bought a ticket from a person instead of a machine.

 

My best, HB

[zeospeed]

I managed to purchase the ticket fine at Waterloo. It was just at Sutton Common that there was a problem.

 

There was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at Wimbledon (B), as there were no ticket inspectors on the train. I would have had to leave the station in order to purchase a ticket, and I certainly wouldn't class that as an opportunity. Is there any small print/guideline that states this law?

[zeospeed]

@HB

 

630pm today. No ticket office as far as I could fathom (and according to the National rail website it has no ticket office)

 

 

I attempted to use the permit to travel machine, but the red light was on i.e. not issuing permits to travel at that time.

 

It was a penalty fare (NOT a fine, apologies)

[Engelbert]

The rules for interchange from the Penalty Fares Policy:

4.29 When a penalty fare cannot be charged.

The instructions must make clear to authorised

collectors when they can charge a penalty fare and when they can’t. In particular, the

instructions must remind authorised collectors of situations where passengers are not liable

to a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules, for example in circumstances where the

National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare. The

instructions must cover the following instances.

•

Interchange

. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station

may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange

station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing

onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of

Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who

started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these

circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station

if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not

possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the

passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a

penalty fare should not be charged.

[zeospeed]

Sorry to sound extremely naive, but what I gather from this is that, given that there was no possibility for me to buy the ticket at Sutton Common, I technically should not have been given a penalty fare at Waterloo. Also, I had less than a 2 minute window for the interchange as I literally changed platforms and almost immediately boarded the connecting train.

[Engelbert]

If there were no facilities at Sutton Common for you to buy a ticket (and I don't think a machine that only accepts cards counts) then that seems to be the case. I suggest you quote the relevant part of the penalty fares policy I pasted above in your appeal. Do not "state that I was advised at station B to pay for the fare at station C" as that is a lie and lying is wrong.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Engelbert

[zeospeed]

Duly noted, thanks so much for your kind help.

[SRPO]

The relevant issue is whether or not there were ticket issuing facilities at the station you boarded (Sutton Common).

You state your card would not work in the machine, I suggest you make an appeal on this basis. They can check whether it was your card or all cards that were being rejected, if there was a machine fault your appeal should be accepted.

If you lie they will find you out & may pass the PFN to the prosecution dept of the issuing TOC.

[Old-CodJA]

You should still make your appeal, the relevant part of the Penalty Fares Rules are referred to by Englebert is of course correct, but SRPO has a valid point. What the information about Sutton Common station says in relation to ticket facilities is as follows:

 

Self-service machines - Yes

Collect from counter - No

Collect from machine - Yes

 

Self-service machines invariably take cash & card payments.

[Engelbert]

If there is no ticket desk and no machine that accepts cash then I think that counts as no facilities to purchase a ticket. If there is a machine that takes only cards and other people's cards work but yours does not you still have grounds for an appeal. There is no legal requirement for you to have a credit/debit card as a means of paying, indeed some people do not and only use cash.

 

Leighton Buzzard station used to have a ticket machine that accepted cash and cards. It has recently been replaced with one that only accept cards. When the ticket office is closed a notice is attached to the machine instructing people with only cash to purchase their ticket on the train. They should not receive a penalty fare. When the ticket office closes on an ad-hoc basis (such as for assisting disabled people to cross the tracks, there is no lift on the bridge across the platform) the RPIs on the trains are not notified of such closures, in breach of the Penalty Fare Rules.

 

So the key issue is, did the ticket machine at Sutton Common accept cash?

Edited October 28, 2011 by Engelbert
typo

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, that's the point exactly and if it did accept cash, but the traveller did not use it, it is likely that this may be the grounds on which an appeal might be rejected.

 

The point about 'no legal requirement to hold a payment card' is well made, but on the other hand, there is no legal requirement to accept card payments either, though I have to say that in this day and age it would seem perverse not to do so.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[zeospeed]

Hi just to update you regarding the situation.

 

I have received a letter back saying they cannot uphold the appeal. There is no justification to my argument written in the letter all they have written is:

 

"I understand that the notice was issued as production of a valid ticket or authority to travel was not possible on the date concerned.

 

Consequently I must advise that in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Penalty Fare Rules, the office is unable to uphold this appeal.

 

As detailed in the National Rails Conditions and Carriage, it is the responsibility of the rail user to purchase a valid ticket or other authority to travel before boarding the train. Train companies operating a penalty fare scheme display statutory warning notices at these stations which advice rail users of their responsibilities and the potential consequences in failing to meet these"

 

This is rubbish as this penalty notices contravenes the other part of the Conditions of Carriage that states that inadequate ticketing facilities at the boarding station and inadequate time to buy a ticket at the interchange mean that a penalty fares notice cannot be upheld.

 

What do you think the next best step would be? I'm not sure if you can re-appeal, or if you can escalate it to someone more senior?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Many Thanks in advance.

[Old-CodJA]

You can write to IPFAS (the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals service)

 

For what my opinion is worth, you will not win the appeal and if the penalty remains unpaid, they will more than likely cancel the penalty fare option and issue a Summons as allowed by the legislation in force.

[zeospeed]

The money is not an issue to me, it is the principle of it. I would like them to explain the precise reasoning behind the fine (not just spout the same "you didn't have a ticket" garbage) or at least acknowledge that they are breaking their own code in order to push the fine.

 

Is it possible to pay the fine and appeal simultaneously?

[Nystagmite]

and inadequate time to buy a ticket at the interchange mean that a penalty fares notice cannot be upheld.

 

It's your responsibility to ensure you have plenty of time to buy a ticket. This is pretty much why I buy my tickets (aside from 2 - but one I had plenty of time and the other, I got an open single and could therefore, use any train) in advance.

[zeospeed]

But if that is the case then why do they have this spiel:

 

 

4.29 When a penalty fare cannot be charged.

The instructions must make clear to authorised

collectors when they can charge a penalty fare and when they can’t. In particular, the

instructions must remind authorised collectors of situations where passengers are not liable

to a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules, for example in circumstances where the

National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare. The

instructions must cover the following instances.

• Interchange. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station

may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange

station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing

onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of

Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who

started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these

circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station

if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not

possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the

passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a

penalty fare should not be charged.

 

 

This implies if you can't buy a ticket in your boarding station, you are not expected to buy a ticket at an interchange station if it is going to delay your journey i.e. just the opposite of what you said, you are NOT Expected to make time to buy your ticket at an interchange if it's going to delay your journey.

 

This is my main grievance, the fact that they have rejected the appeal with no justification whatsoever.