PCN Code 07: Meter Feeding in Camden

[bengaltiger]

Hello

 

I received a PCN for making two separate payments whilst parking my car. Apparently, you are only allowed to insert payment once, and any subsequent ticket purchases are invalid. Here are some details of the PCN:

 

Issued by Camden

Contravention: Parked with payment made to extend the stay beyond initial time

Code 07

 

Firstly, it just doesn't make sense to issue a PCN whilst a valid pay and display was visible. I understand there was a sign stating "Maximum Stay: 2 Hours" and for this reason I assumed it would be ok to park within this time frame. The pay and display tickets were for:

 

First ticket: 1 Hour 1 min, Second ticket: 37 mins (Total parking time 1Hr 38Mins)

 

Because I parked within the maximum permissible time frame, and a valid pay and display was shown, is there anyway I can get this PCN cancelled? I have already appealed this decision, but they maintain the small prints on the machine stated their rules.

 

This seems to be a money making scheme for local councils, I see no purpose of this rule and would only make sense if I had exceeded the maximum stay of two hours. Surely they can't get away with this? I genuinely paid around £4 to park the vehicle, and it seems unfair for them to issue a PCN!

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[green_and_mean]

Its a shame you din't ask advice before making your informal appeal if you had asked for all the relevant information regarding the contravention from the Council there may have been grounds for appeal, have you still got the discount period or are they asking for the full amount?

[bengaltiger]

They have extended the discount period by 14 days - But I plan to make a formal appeal in which case the normal charge of £80 applies. Can you provide any further advise?

[green_and_mean]

They have extended the discount period by 14 days - But I plan to make a formal appeal in which case the normal charge of £80 applies. Can you provide any further advise?

 

There are two ways to issue a 07 PCN a wrong way and a correct way...

 

Wrong:

CEO wanders down street sees car with 2 consecutive P&D tickets and issued PCN.

 

Correct:

CEO sees car notes valve positions and ticket details and returns after expiry of first ticket to see if you have metre fed, issues PCN

 

If its the wrong way you have grounds for appeal you need to get the CEOs notes and also are there observation times on the PCN?

[bengaltiger]

Hello green_and_mean

 

Thanks for your comments, really appreciated.

 

So basically I arrived at my car with one minute remaining, saw the CEO and gestured to him to allow me some time while I buy another ticket. He remained in the area, saw me purchase a new ticket, allowed me to replace the new ticket with the old ticket, patiently waited for me to leave the scene and then issued the PCN!

 

If it was wrong to purchase another ticket, he should have told me so!

 

Yes, there are observation times.

 

PCN issued at 13:19

CEO observed from 13:08 to 13:19

First ticket expiry: 13:15

Second ticket expiry: 13:53

 

On the letter I received from Camden, it says "Civil Enforcement Officers do act for the council and as such are expected to offer a high level of customer service"

Yeh Right! They are money hungry thieves who'll do anything to ensure a PCN is issued!

Edited September 30, 2011 by bengaltiger

[green_and_mean]

Hello green_and_mean

 

Thanks for your comments, really appreciated.

 

So basically I arrived at my car with one minute remaining, saw the CEO and gestured to him to allow me some time while I buy another ticket. He remained in the area, saw me purchase a new ticket, allowed me to replace the new ticket with the old ticket, patiently waited for me to leave the scene and then issued the PCN!

 

If it was wrong to purchase another ticket, he should have told me so!

 

Yes, there are observation times.

 

PCN issued at 13:19

PCN Observed from 13:08 to 13:19

First ticket expiry: 13:15

 

On the letter I received from Camden, it says "Civil Enforcement Officers do act for the council and as such are expected to offer a high level of customer service"

Yeh Right! They are money hungry thieves who'll do anything to ensure a PCN is issued!

 

If he observed the vehicle at 13.08 before you returned at 13.14 it sounds like they have you I'm afraid.

[Jamberson]

The logic behind it is that your are only allowed a fixed period of time. If you were able to replace one ticket with a subsequent one, you could stay forever, always having a current ticket on show. That's why there is a rule - one ticket then you have to move. Even though you did not overstay, the rule still has to be applied to prevent this type of thing happenening generally.

[green_and_mean]

The logic behind it is that your are only allowed a fixed period of time. If you were able to replace one ticket with a subsequent one, you could stay forever, always having a current ticket on show.

 

Not strictly true they could chose to only use the contravention if the driver exceeds the maximum stay I know where I live its Council policy not to issue unless they have done so. The CEO could have logged the vehicle and waited to see if he bought a 3rd PD taking him over the 2 hours.

[TheBogsDollocks]

Did the traffic sign mention anything about not being allowed to stay beyond initial time?

[bengaltiger]

With regards to the signs, there was a big sign board saying Maximum stay 2 hours.

 

On the Pay & Display Machine, there were small prints of which number 7 read the following:

 

"Tickets should be purchased only at time of parking. Subsequent ticket purchase is a contravention"

 

This in my opinion is quite ambiguous. The above still indicates to me that parking within the two hour limit is permissible, but any subsequent tickets purchased to extend beyond the maximum stay of two hours is a contravention. A more clear sign would probably read DO NOT PURCHASE MORE THAN 1 TICKET

 

Would you not agree the information on the Pay & Display machine is quite confusing?

[my-spirit-soars-free]

To me, that means you can only buy a ticket at the time you park the car, so meter feeding is not permitted.

 

Of course the interesting question there is how anyone can comply - is it really possible to buy a ticket while parking the car, as this rule suggests the driver must do? Surely we would normally park the car, get out of the car, then buy the ticket, which would be a contravention under this rule?

[bengaltiger]

To me, that means you can only buy a ticket at the time you park the car, so meter feeding is not permitted.

 

Of course the interesting question there is how anyone can comply - is it really possible to buy a ticket while parking the car, as this rule suggests the driver must do? Surely we would normally park the car, get out of the car, then buy the ticket, which would be a contravention under this rule?

 

Yes, this is quite interesting because time of parking is not clearly defined. Could I not argue that my time of parking was between 12:16 to 13:53? In which case I did purchase my P&D tickets within "time of parking"

 

And yes, my actual time of parking was probably a few minutes before this time, which therefore indicates that a contravention had already occurred (under their rules).

 

Now I am thinking if councils are actually allowed to apply this rule under any circumstances - Is it actually legal for them to do this? Because there is no valid reason for this rule except to generate funds.

 

I still maintain the wording on the machine is quite confusing, but the council is having none of it. Any further suggestions?

[my-spirit-soars-free]

There could be valid reasons for the rule - for instance, the council wants to keep it as a very short stay car park, and is using a very cheap first hour, then an expensive second hour, to do that.

 

Even if that is not the case in this car park, they may have the same T&Cs in all their car parks to keep it simple for their enforcement staff. Have you worked out how much you paid for parking, in total, and how this relates to the cost of a single ticket covering the full two hours?

 

 

 

How far have you gone in the appeals process? Have you got to the formal appeal, or just the informal?

 

 

I

[bengaltiger]

Hello

 

The cost of purchasing one or two tickets is the same. You essentially pay for the time you stay so it doesn't matter how many tickets you actually purchase.

 

I've also read up somewhere on the internet that councils are using a legal loophole to apply this rule. Because actually the rule was set up to ensure no one stays beyond the maximum permissible stay - They are now using this to their advantage and now issuing PCN's for purchasing multiple tickets.

 

I have only just heard back from the informal appeal - So my next step is to write a formal appeal.