Alfa Romeo - 3 issues in 9mts - now floor is flooded - want help crap car!

[moel]

Ok this is a slightly pre-emptive post but let me tell you a tale.

 

In february this year I purchased from an Alfa dealership, a nice tidy 159 57 plate 2.4 diesel. I bought it, and I went about my merry way. I noticed an occasional stutter, and occasional 'warm start' issues. Informed the dealership by e-mail, but work was busy so didn't have an opportunity at the time to take it down.

 

Then I developed a coolant leak. Fine, i thought i now need to book it in. So booked it in, and got a phone call 'hello mr robinson, yes sorry to say that the coolant pipe isn't covered, but if you pay for the part the sales department will pay for the labour as a goodwill gesture. Brilliant thats good..and we've also replaced the egr and the faulty injectors under the warranty. Brilliant I thought

 

Not a great outcome but not a bad one either.

 

Then, the chief engineer called me following the weekend and said, Hello Mr Robinson i'm not happy with the running of your car...and alfa tech have said to take the head off, to check that. But in case what we find isn't covered by the warranty (but it should be) we need you to authorise that to happen.

 

Resigned I did so, thinking well it's not like theres anything in there that I could have damaged, it has to be covered by the alfa care premier warranty which I received with the car.

 

I then rang this week to see where we were and the chief engineer was 'yep we can see that the exhaust valves are coked up and sticking'. But alfa want us to check the oil control rings on the piston, which is a 10 hour engine drop and then put the engine back. That was going to happen yesterday. Then Dave thought, why the hell are we doing this, we can see what the problem is, Alfa just want data...and we really don't want to drop the engine when we can test it by simply filling the cylinder with oil. So rang up the warranty engineer who popped in today on his way to Hull to say 'no we won't cover that, we'll cover the egr and the injectors but not the problems caused by the failure of those components'

 

So i'm now in the position, whereby I can't do anything till tomorrow lunchtime once the engineers report is showing up on Alfacares system.

 

But it seems ludicrous to me that I have a policy that reads

 

Every Alfa Romeo Approved Car sold has a minimum of 12 months warranty included and a customer option to increase the duration of cover is available. Level 1 Premier cover is available for vehicled between 0-4 years and up to 60,000 miles.

 

What is covered :

 

Most mechanical and electrical components of the Insured vehicle:

 

Examples : Engine; Timing Belts ; gear box; torque converter; diff; FWD; RWD; Propshaft; Wheel bearings; Engine cooling system; air con; turbo. fuel system ; fron and rear suspension ; steering; brakes; electrical system; ecu;

 

Working materials components also included are oil seals and any oil seal of gasket where removal of the engine gearbox diff system is essential to effect repair. Casings: Damage caused to the casings and to other mechanical and electrical parts as a direct result of the failure of covered components is included.

 

The following components are specifically excluded: bodywork, door locks, brightwork, pain, glass, trim, air bag, entertainment, sat nave, batteries, exhaust systems and catalytic converters, normal wear and tear or service items and other components subject to routine maintenance or periodic repair or replacement.

 

Now a little explanation of why the problem occurs. The EGR is a known weak point on the engine...basically because it's from a 1.9 diesel vauxhall engine. So what happens is the injectors overfuel, this creates a lot of carbon..the carbon goes thru the egr, but makes the egr stick. When the egr sticks, it then redirects this heavily carbonised exhaust gas, back into the air intake which the clogs up the swirl valves in the inlet manifold (which also need replacing) and causes the exhaust valves stick, which in turn forces even MORE carbon thru the failed/failing egr, because the cylinder isn't under complete compression and therefore fuel isn't burning properly.

 

The dealership in question have e-mails dating from a little over a week after owning the car, that the engine was stuttering.

 

So basically what are my options?

 

and before anyone says it, Yes I know I bought an Alfa.

 

Also I should point out there are 3 seperate companies involved

 

The Dealership

 

Alfa UK technical support, who tell the service guys what to inspect and in what order (and are the ones that said take the head off look at the exhaust valves)

 

Alfacare (the warranty company, which is simply a trading name for Motors insurance company ltd)

 

The car as said has been in my possession for barely 3 months.

 

Also it could be that the engineer thought i only had standard warranty rather than the premier one.

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

first of all, have they given you a courtesy car? If not ask for one!! As far as i'm aware, this is a known fault with this engine and Alfa have a modification for it which was to be carried out on all cars fitted with this engine during the first service. I suspect that the dealer has identified this and realised that they need to put it right so its a good job you bought the car from an Alfa dealer. I think you are jumping the gun a little because I think you will find that Alfa will be footing the bill and not the warranty company. In any event, SOGA will most certainly apply here but lets see what happens with the dealer first.

[MARTIN3030]

Yes agree with SS.

[moel]

Thanks Sam, Martin!

 

It's helped put my mind slightly more at ease. What is the process of appealing under the Sale of Goods Act?

 

I assume that your referring to the EGR restriction gaskets? Which i can happily attest weren't fitted. They also changed the design of the cylinder head in the 08 revision of the car.

 

I can't believe i never knew about this site!

[sailor sam]

I wouldn't worry about SOGA at the moment. I think you will find that between the dealer and Alfa, that it will be sorted. As it is a known problem, they would'nt want to go down the SOGA route especially as it was bought from an 'approved dealer'. Fiat (Alfa's parent company) are hell bent on improving the marque's reputation believe me, I used to work at a Fiat/Alfa dealership. Have they given you a courtesy car?? If not, ask for one! Any problems contact here; http://www.alfaromeo.co.uk/NEWALFA_UK/contact/contact_uk.html

Edited June 15, 2011 by sailor sam

[moel]

Hi Sam

 

No I didn't request a courtesy car, partly because that would probably have delayed my initial repair (and at the time I had my 40 year old backup car, which is now awaiting a tow to a garage to find a loose connection)

 

Plus as we are now in to the rebuilding part of the car, (which commences tomorrow) it seems kind of pointless.

[gbjadyy]

whilst these do have known problems with egr it is also possible that the coking up of cylinders can happen if the car doesent have chance to purge the carbon usually if driven only short journeys or only kept at low revs (slow drivers) this inturn can then clog up everthing else related including egr and pipework etc, the same can also be said if there was an oil ring issue because the oil could then be getting burtn in the cylinders and creating execcessive carbon build up with same end result, also you mention just pouring oil in the cylinders to see if it leaks??? its doesnt work like that, you have bothe compression rings and oil ring on pistons, the oil ring could be worn or broken but that would not show by pouring oil inot cylinders because the compression rings mayb perfectly ok thereby keeping the cylinder in a sealed conditon, the actual oil ring is simply a scraper ring that does what it says on the tin, it scraps the oil downwards back towards the sump when the piston is on the return stroke, even with the cylinder head still on car you can carry out a full compression test and get good results from that test but still have a broken oil ring, i think you will find that alfa are asking for the stripdown to ensure this problem hasnt resulted from a broken oil ring and really visual inspection is the only true way to do this ( even if nothing obvious found though its good practaise to replace all piston rings at this point)

[moel]

Not really looking to get into a 'weeing contest' I'm fairly handy with a spanner, but wasn't 100% on what the engineer at the dealership was telling me regarding oil pooling in the cylinder etc. (But i am aware of the difference between piston rings and oil scraper rings:thumb:)

 

Either way we know that the EGR was sticking and that the injectors were out of tolerance. Also if it was using oil due to knackered control rings, surely it would have made a difference to the oil level in 3 months...and i'd have noticed the smell.

 

Cheers for your contribution though!

 

PS i am DEFINITELY not a slow driver! (I don't brake the speed limit, but having come from an mx-5 i'm definitely in the 'drive it like you stole it' category!)

[SCARS]

Wouldn't worry till they present you with a bill, at which point refer to fit for purpose, and ask them to prove that the faults were not present when you purchased the car.

Which is basically impossible, thus you won't end up paying anything.

 

The first 6months they have to prove that any fault was NOT present when you purchased the car.

[gbjadyy]

in most cases i should ahve thought you would experaince some drop in oil level over a 3 month period so i agree on that one but i think that was what the engineer was refering to when he wanted reason to inspect the oil ring though ( thats what alfa asked at least anyway), the above post is quite correct though so let them carry on with anything they want to do and then dispute at time of collection under soga if they havent already footed the bill

[heliosuk]

Wouldn't worry till they present you with a bill, at which point refer to fit for purpose, and ask them to prove that the faults were not present when you purchased the car.

Which is basically impossible, thus you won't end up paying anything.

 

The first 6months they have to prove that any fault was NOT present when you purchased the car.

 

Assumptions, assumptions again!!!

 

How many miles moel now and when you bought it?

[SCARS]

Assumptions, assumptions again!!!

 

If you'd bothered to have read the original post, you'd have realised that Alfa have already replaced faulty injectors, and an egr valve under warranty, any knock on effect from these failed components would have to be rectified under the same complaint. Therefore the poor running "stuttering" that the op commented on happening less than 2 weeks after taking delivery still stands. The op is still under warranty, and I'd be very suprised if they present him with a bill at the end of all this. That being said they've charged him for a coolant pipe, even when they cover "Engine cooling system" as part of their warranty!

 

Unless of course you think that the following statement is correct:

 

"We've replaced the injectors on your car because they were faulty, however whilst they were faulty they dropped too much fuel into the engine, damaged the inlet/exhaust valves so you'll have to pay for a head rebuild..."

[sailor sam]

If you'd bothered to have read the original post, you'd have realised that Alfa have already replaced faulty injectors, and an egr valve under warranty, any knock on effect from these failed components would have to be rectified under the same complaint. Therefore the poor running "stuttering" that the op commented on happening less than 2 weeks after taking delivery still stands. The op is still under warranty, and I'd be very suprised if they present him with a bill at the end of all this. That being said they've charged him for a coolant pipe, even when they cover "Engine cooling system" as part of their warranty!

 

Unless of course you think that the following statement is correct:

 

"We've replaced the injectors on your car because they were faulty, however whilst they were faulty they dropped too much fuel into the engine, damaged the inlet/exhaust valves so you'll have to pay for a head rebuild..."

 

Knowing how Alfa deal with these matters, i would be very suprised if the OP finds himself being presented with a bill at the end of this. In anyevent, they will realize that to defend a claim for a damaged engine caused by 'faulty injectors' or the EGR valve, will be very difficult especially as its a known defect with this engine. Perhaps this is why they have taken the initaitive by not only investigating but carrying out the necessay work without the normal hassles of a customer having to make numerous calls or return trips in other cases we usually see every day!

[heliosuk]

Which is why I say assumptions!

 

The reality is that many manufactuers supposed warranties are not in fact warranties from them but in fact insurance polocies against a failure. This is why the OP will have been charged for the hose. The OP needs to look at his warranty policy as such. Another thing to remember is that he reported the issue early on but for various reasons did not pursue it. This will not go down well with any judge.

 

The point here is that Alfa UK are looking at the issue and have requested various tests, be they right or wrong, but they do this for a reason.

 

Essentially, on a car this old through the dealer system, Alfa UK sign up to a co who operates an insurance system which is marketed as Alfa Warranty. A lot of other manufactuers do. When they have a big failure presented the insurance co will have the right to refer to Alfa UK which is what I believe has happened here. Alfa UK in turn need to look into it as they might have a claim against Alfa Italy who in turn will claim against the supplier responsible for the failure subject to the commercial agreements in force at the time of sale.

 

Whichever way you look at it, the current employed process, be it right or wrong, is the way things are done.

 

My belief is that the OP will get all that is necessary done under the warranty/insurance policy he/she bought with the car. But the fact that Alfa seem to be looking at it suggests they either have suspicions there is something wrong with the claim or that they are trying to work out what has gone wrong.

 

To assume that under SOGA the OP has rights for six years is not correct. as I understand it. Had the OP owned the car from new then this might apply.

 

Perhaps SCARS should be renamed "L" cars.

 

Mileage when bought and current from the OP would enable a better perspective perhaps???

[heliosuk]

Forgot to add, even with a brand new car where the dealer should ask you to sign any job card, I think you will find squirreled away is a clause that you are liable for any repair not covered/reimbursed by the manufactuer.

 

The next thing is, as suggested, always ask for a courtesy car but remember you are not entitled to one under any circumstance and relies on the goodwill of the company involved. A point often overlooked. Get one then great but you have no legal redress if they don't.

[SCARS]

To assume that under SOGA the OP has rights for six years is not correct. as I understand it. Had the OP owned the car from new then this might apply.

 

Perhaps SCARS should be renamed "L" cars.

 

Is it playground time again?

 

SOTG gives rights on every sale that it applies to for upto 6 years from date of purchase, even on a used item. There is a rather large grey area, about fit for purpose, and of satifactory quality with regards to used cars, which greatly supports the consumer.

[moel]

Well there was no charge no quibbling and the dealership in question was really helpful

 

Thanks for all the super useful info tho!

[sailor sam]

Well hate to say it (NOT) but I told you so! Now this should serve as an example to all other manufacturers and dealers... in particular VX please note, THIS is how to treat your customers. And the thread is less than 20 posts long!

 

A massive pat on the back for Alfa Romeo and of course the dealer who hasn't been mentioned. Please let us know who wins the 'CAG dealer of the year award' as well Moel!

[moel]

So, aside from the fact that I may have bought a bit of a pup, some of you will remember my thread from a few months ago which regarded my car needing a new inlet manifold and egr, following an egr failure before I bought the car. As well as a popped water pipe, which was why it had initially gone in.

 

Next up on the agenda - Another water leak! From a metal pipe, cost = £575ish

 

Well to be technical, my leak is from a plastic screw within this metal pipe, but they have replaced the plastic screw with the metal updated version...and it's still weeping. This was a modification made by Alfa Romeo, but not retrospectively fitted to all 159's

 

Warranty excludes all pipes. Obviously if I've got to pay it i've got to pay it, but 3 flaws inside 6 months?

 

Hmm....any suggestions gladly welcome.

 

I was wondering if the sales of goods act, could come into play here. But obviously I can't say prove that the fault wasn't on there when I bought the car, otherwise it would have shown up last time the system was pressure tested, when it was repaired in June.

[sailor sam]

Are you referring to an issue which Alfa and the dealership between them rectified for you without any of the usual 'difficulties'? If so, have you re-approached the dealership explaining that the modification is 'weeping'?

[moel]

No.. this is a part on the vehicle that has not been touched since the car was purchased.

[sailor sam]

Sorry, i'm confused... you said originally; "Well to be technical, my leak is from a plastic screw within this metal pipe, but they have replaced the plastic screw with the metal updated version...and it's still weeping". Then you say; "No.. this is a part on the vehicle that has not been touched since the car was purchased". So i'm assuming that this was done before you purchased the car? In anyevent, have you contcted the dealer? If so, what have they said?

[moel]

Ahh apologies I should have explained more clearly..

 

The car went into the dealership yesterday morning, they traced my water leak, to this metal pipe with the plastic screws.

 

They then replaced the plastic screws, with metal ones they had in stock (an updated part) But the pipe is still leaking from said hole. Thus necessitating new metal pipe @ £600

[sailor sam]

As you say, the leak should of shown itself during the pressure testing. Have you asked the dearler about a compromise over the bill? Although the said pipe may not be covered under the warranty, it may be considered as something which would be covered under the SOGA. Problem is that the dealer can possibly prove that the defect wasn't present at the point of sale. I would see what the dealer says and possibly contact Alfa customer service again due to it being an approved car. The service you had before seemed to be satisfactory without the usual problems we see from other makes so I don't see why they won't help you again.

[grahamengineering]

An alfa with only 3 flaws in 6 months. Your getting off lightly. Those vehicles should be driven straight from the factory straight to the scrapman. Never seen a reliable alfa yet.