pcn for overstaying ... but valid reason under police order

[tifo]

Hi,

 

I attended a sentencing court hearing for a teenage family member who was killed in a car crash some months ago. I paid for 2 hours parking as that would have been enough. However, the hearing went over slightly and I was around 15 minutes late. There was a PCN issued and it is a council car park across the court.

 

As a victim family we have 2 police liaison officers who attended court with us. During the judges determination, when he went away to decide the sentence, I asked an officer if I could leave so that I can get a new parking ticket. This was about 20 mins before the first one was due to expire. He said no I can't, as the judge may come back any time, but he will go and give the car reg to the attendant so that it does not get ticketed, which he did.

 

Arriving back at the car I had a PCN issued. The police officers asked if he can withdraw the ticket but the attendant said he cannot do anything because it is 'in the system' and that I would have to appeal under the normal procedures.

 

The police officer has said I can refer to him for any information the council may require, such as to confirm I attended court and the hearing went slightly over but that he prevented me from leaving.

 

My brother, whose son was killed, also got a PCN. The reasons are the same.

 

It states £50 within 28 days or £25 within 14 days.

 

Any advice?

[Jamberson]

You'll need to appeal both in writing. Give a factual account, like you have here, and if possible enclose a copy of something which corroborates the time and date of the court hearing.

 

I would advise against mentioning your intent to go back and add another ticket. That would probably also be a contravention and get you a PCN. If you mention that, it reads like you would have had a PCN anyway - I would just explain that you were delayed and leave it at that.

 

They really should cancel these - I hope they do the right thing. If not, you can fight on.

[tifo]

I would advise against mentioning your intent to go back and add another ticket. That would probably also be a contravention and get you a PCN. If you mention that, it reads like you would have had a PCN anyway - I would just explain that you were delayed and leave it at that.

 

Is it unlawful to buy another ticket if the first one is expiring? had I done this, I wouldn't have got the PCN as i would have renewed some 15 minutes before the expiry.

 

I understand what you mean but am confused why it's unlawful.

[tifo]

if possible enclose a copy of something which corroborates the time and date of the court hearing.

 

That's not a problem, the police officer is willing to give a statement of where we were (as he was with us at the hearing) plus it is widely reported in local media (paper and radio). I'll provide his details with the appeal letter as he's given permission for this.

[Jamberson]

Is it unlawful to buy another ticket if the first one is expiring? had I done this, I wouldn't have got the PCN as i would have renewed some 15 minutes before the expiry.

 

I understand what you mean but am confused why it's unlawful.

 

Not "unlawful" but often against the rules in pay & display. They usually work on a time-limited basis, and extending your stay is against the rules as it defeats the time limit. This may or may not be the case where you parked, but I would play safe and not mention it. Your call of course.

[tifo]

The police officer was pee'd off cos he'd asked the parking attendant not to ticket our cars because we were in the hearing. But he still did it.

 

It was a sentencing hearing for the driver, who survived with minor injuries but two of his teenage friends died from the accident. He got a short prison sentence.

[tifo]

Not "unlawful" but often against the rules in pay & display. They usually work on a time-limited basis, and extending your stay is against the rules as it defeats the time limit. This may or may not be the case where you parked, but I would play safe and not mention it. Your call of course.

 

Thanks. The max time limit would be 4 hours and we paid for 1-2 hours rather than 0-1, the next one is 2-3 and 3-4. But i'll check on their board.

[Jamberson]

Yes, that's the problem. If you were permitted to replace one ticket with a subsequent one, you could stay beyond 4 hours - in fact, forever - so they don't allow it usually. It's called meter feeding.

 

That's why I'd suggest you don't mention it. It's a small point, but the gist of your appeal is that you were delayed, not what you might have done if you were able to go outside.

[tifo]

Should I appeal for both tickets separately or as one, because the same circumstances apply, i.e. the police officer prevented us from leaving the court room so that we could move the cars, which is why he went and asked for them not to be ticketed. I don't blame him as he was trying to help which is why he was very annoyed with the tickets.

[Jamberson]

I would advise seperately. The main reason is, the appeal letters will probably be looked at by two different officers. You only need one to be cancelled to have a very strong case for the other one being cancelled too, for consistency. Appeal seperately and you double your chances of getting a reasonable result.

[tifo]

Traffic Management Act 2004

 

Powers to direct traffic officers

(1) A traffic officer shall, when carrying out his duties, comply with any direction of a constable.

 

Since our police officer asked the attendant not to ticket the cars, and later to withdraw the ticket, was there a contravention of the above?

[tifo]

Also, how long does an attendant have to observe a vehicle before issuing a ticket? In our case it was 1 minute.

[sameagle]

As a casual observer, I would have thought that if somebody was specifically asked, by a Police Officer, not to do something, and then ignores the request, he/she is liable to be charged with obstruction at the very least, and possibly several other, more serious, offences.

 

Sam

[green_and_mean]

As a casual observer, I would have thought that if somebody was specifically asked, by a Police Officer, not to do something, and then ignores the request, he/she is liable to be charged with obstruction at the very least, and possibly several other, more serious, offences.

 

Sam

 

You can get done for obstructing a Police officer from conducting his duties but I fail to see how issuing a PCN obstructed anything? You only have to follow Police instruction if its a lawfull request, its not against the law just to ignore a Police officer.

I fail to see how the Police can insist you remain in Court you were not the person being tried one of you could have left to sort out the parking and returned to hear the sentence.

[tifo]

I fail to see how the Police can insist you remain in Court you were not the person being tried one of you could have left to sort out the parking and returned to hear the sentence.

 

Yes, i know, but his reason was that since we, as a family, had waited many months for this sentence to be handed down, there was no way he was going to allow us to miss it over a small thing like parking, which is why he went outside and asked the attendant not to ticket our cars. He then later asked him to withdraw the tickets but they'd been issued so we can only appeal now.

 

Hindsight is a good thing. Maybe the police officer thinks he should have been more assertive with the attendant and we certainly think we should have got a 3 hour ticket.

 

What we did not expect is the sentencing to last so long as it was only a matter of the judge giving the sentence. We did not expect it to last over an hour with full statements by the defence and prosecutor. At the last hearing, we were out in 10 mins.

[green_and_mean]

Yes, i know, but his reason was that since we, as a family, had waited many months for this sentence to be handed down, there was no way he was going to allow us to miss it over a small thing like parking, which is why he went outside and asked the attendant not to ticket our cars. He then later asked him to withdraw the tickets but they'd been issued so we can only appeal now.

 

Hindsight is a good thing. Maybe the police officer thinks he should have been more assertive with the attendant and we certainly think we should have got a 3 hour ticket.

 

What we did not expect is the sentencing to last so long as it was only a matter of the judge giving the sentence. We did not expect it to last over an hour with full statements by the defence and prosecutor. At the last hearing, we were out in 10 mins.

 

I appreciate why you are upset and it was obviously a distressing time but ultimately I don't beleive the PC had authority to demand you got free parking.

[tifo]

it's gone to appeal now so let's see what they say.