Ingeus

[jasta11]

Further update.

 

Attended my first induction/group meeting and we had an overly-nice and enthusiastic advisor, who basically led the group to believe that the streets were paved with gold now they are on the work programme with Ingeus. And to be honest, anybody without any insight into what Ingeus and other work programme providers are like, would easily swallow up the positive spin. There was lots of, "We are on your side guys." "We only want you off benefits and back in work." Or in other words, we only want to make a quick buck off your own work finding a job. As for the CV, I took it along but wasn't asked for it. They asked me to provide a copy of my CV for my next appointment, but I take it I don't have to if I don't want? My first one-on-one session with my advisor is on Monday, so I'll be back with another update.

 

Just a few more thoughts. Today went better than I expected, but something still really annoyed me. I think it was how the advisor running the introductory session painted Ingeus in oh so many pretty colours. At times it was nauseating, and the other people there were really drawn into it all. I did notice another thing which concerned me - they offered courses/workshops on dealing with depression, anxiety and mental health issues. I have suffered from such issues recently and in the past. I am rather a suspicious as to why a company that makes profits out sending (or forcing) people back to work would offer such a service? Perhaps to convince you there is really nothing wrong with you and it's all down to being unemployed?

 

Yes, my first couple of meetings were all nice and jolly too - they're sussing you out to see if you're someone they can talk down to and intimidate, or whether you're someone who knows the rules, isn't afraid to complain and won't take any sh*t off them. I was told that 'Ingeus would be different to other WP courses' but it isn't..though it's marginally better than A4e but that's no recommendation!

 

Read the DWP rules which the WP have to abide by and don't let Ingeus get away with anything. Show them that you're wise to them and they'll back off quite a bit. Here's the link again for the DWP guidance;

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/work-programme-provider.shtml

 

As for the 'health courses', it's just another way for them to show the wonderful government that they're doing great things and helping us poor unemployed lead richer lives. I'm sure some people may genuinely need and benefit from such courses, but at the end of the day it's really all about image and looking good in the eyes of the DWP, who contract them.

[Mr.P]

They asked me to provide a copy of my CV for my next appointment, but I take it I don't have to if I don't want?

 

I did notice another thing which concerned me - they offered courses/workshops on dealing with depression, anxiety and mental health issues.

 

Re: CV - You do not have to provide them with a copy unless you really want to. If you do, ask "Why does Ingeus want a copy and what will they do with it ?"

If it is to tout around to countless (potential) employers for jobs that you are neither qualified or capable of doing, giving them a copy does you no favours. Beware the white man bearing shiny trinkets, for he speaks with a forked tongue.

 

Re MH courses - Chances are, they could refer you to a local charity that can provide genuine support. But this would be the same type of thing you could access via your GP or Council advice center.

Or it could be one of those NLP sessions run in house by an unqualified quack - Best thing to do is to ask who provides these workshops and take it from there.

[Ih8Ingeus]

I've received a 'doubt' from the JC saying Ingeus said I never turned up to my workshop. lol

[Chester6]

I wouldn't use them or anyone recommended by them for mental issues etc - I would use someone I knew could be trusted, any Ingeus advice is always going to be tainted by the source,

in the news there's people who actually believe that being unemployed is their fault

 

I am gay and I sometimes tell advisers but regardless of drone they all answer like they've read the answers from a book so it would be worse if you was someone who was vulnerable talking to them as they would FCUK with your head terribly

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Paulo83]

Yes, my first couple of meetings were all nice and jolly too - they're sussing you out to see if you're someone they can talk down to and intimidate, or whether you're someone who knows the rules, isn't afraid to complain and won't take any sh*t off them. I was told that 'Ingeus would be different to other WP courses' but it isn't..though it's marginally better than A4e but that's no recommendation!

 

Read the DWP rules which the WP have to abide by and don't let Ingeus get away with anything. Show them that you're wise to them and they'll back off quite a bit.

 

As for the 'health courses', it's just another way for them to show the wonderful government that they're doing great things and helping us poor unemployed lead richer lives. I'm sure some people may genuinely need and benefit from such courses, but at the end of the day it's really all about image and looking good in the eyes of the DWP, who contract them.

 

This is the first I've been on Jobseekers for a prolonged period of time, so it's all a new experience to me. I know A4e have a shocking reputation so it's not really hard to be better than them! Yeah, they told us that Ingeus are not like the other WP providers, that they are on "our" side and they don't force people to work voluntarily (I thought they used Poundland and others? OR has this policy changed?).

 

Thanks for the rules. I have already read them but I think I will note down what I think are the most important so I can have them handy.

 

As for the MH stuff, I would never consider using them. I was just curious as to why they were offering them. I'd much rather use my local GP and get a referral to a charity if I ever had to.

 

Thanks to everyone else for the replies. I have my first one-on-one interview on Monday, so I'll post again with details how that went.

[Mr.P]

I have my first one-on-one interview on Monday.

 

I've said it many times before, but it is worth repeating:

 

Record all conversations if you have the equipment to do so (many mobile phones have the option). Always insist on copies of all paperwork (record keeping is slapdash with many of these outfits). Never volunteer personal information and query the reason why if they ask.

[Bakatcha]

Drop a quick e-mail to your MP about the lies being told by Bunkum Smith and the fraudster Schapps.

Details here:

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/please-help-hold-dwp-to-account-for-stats-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-12062

[dyfed]

It can take up to 12 years to be a licensed clinical psychologist.

Yes the third sector can offer support and counselling but really these should be addition to care available from the community MH team.

 

In no way should anyone with a two weeks introduction to MH course be let lose on any individual suffering with MH issues.

Its also worth mentioning that many "service users" experiance fluctuating degrees of MH in any given time period. So I might feel a bit better after recieving the limited help they, Ingeus, can offer for a few weeks then self harm or try to commit suicide.

[Paulo83]

It can take up to 12 years to be a licensed clinical psychologist.

Yes the third sector can offer support and counselling but really these should be addition to care available from the community MH team.

 

In no way should anyone with a two weeks introduction to MH course be let lose on any individual suffering with MH issues.

Its also worth mentioning that many "service users" experiance fluctuating degrees of MH in any given time period. So I might feel a bit better after recieving the limited help they, Ingeus, can offer for a few weeks then self harm or try to commit suicide.

 

Firstly, let me make this absolutely clear, I would never consider seeking help for mental health issues with WP providers or any private company for that matter.

 

With that cleared up, I raised the issue because I thought it was worth doing so. I find it worrisome that a WP provider could be allowed to offer such a service, especially considering how mental health issues are so poorly understood by most employers, and certainly by other companies hired by the government, like ATOS. I also thought it was worth mentioning for anybody who reads this thread and has been assigned to Ingeus. Don't use the service. Don't give them any ammunition to use against you. Go to your doctor, who you can probably trust a hell of a lot more.

 

I got a leaflet about all the services they provide. I will scan it and upload it tomorrow.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Firstly, let me make this absolutely clear, I would never consider seeking help for mental health issues with WP providers or any private company for that matter.

 

With that cleared up, I raised the issue because I thought it was worth doing so. I find it worrisome that a WP provider could be allowed to offer such a service, especially considering how mental health issues are so poorly understood by most employers, and certainly by other companies hired by the government, like ATOS. I also thought it was worth mentioning for anybody who reads this thread and has been assigned to Ingeus. Don't use the service. Don't give them any ammunition to use against you. Go to your doctor, who you can probably trust a hell of a lot more.

 

I got a leaflet about all the services they provide. I will scan it and upload it tomorrow.

On this subject, it was reported some time ago that A4E had mandated candidates to attend baloneous courses of dubious intent based on Neuro Linguistic Programming.... however, I am not sure whether other Work Programme Providers (such as Ingeus) have incorporated such dubious practises yet.

[Helpyourself]

This thread strikes me as very odd. There's a group of people sharing strategies to thwart the main aim of a company that has the same goal as them - namely, to assist you into employment. Given that being on the work programme means you have suffered unemployment for an extended period, it would seem obvious that you should take any help going. But instead, you seem to be wanting to make life as difficult as possible.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, Govt schemes of any measure tend to be inefficient & the rationale of some processes seem rather obtuse. But frankly, it's their scheme and you are only on it because you are accepting benefits from them. Therefore, I'd say that they have a right to decide how it goes, who runs it & how. Let's just say you were in a different position & a family member was in your current position. You lend them some money to get them by until they find work - would you accept that it's good manners to let them know what you are doing to find work in order to pay them back? How would you feel if, after accepting your money, they started telling you what jobs they would accept and whether they would share information with you? Or when they will come round and update you?

 

The extreme side of this is the individual who has added to their CV, "I do not give authority to share information with the DWP etc...." to their CV & cover letter. No employer in their right mind would interview you. That strategy is beyond self-defeating.

 

You will get good Ingeus advisors and bad advisors but I'd argue that your experience is worse because of the approach you take with them. The taxpayer is ultimately paying them to be there, their offices, their IT equipment etc... They offer training courses - some good, some bad. What should they do? Offer nothing?

 

But everyone here seems to have a clear opinion on what they shouldn't be doing, given that, I'd guess you have a clear idea of what they SHOULD be doing to help you. No-one has mentioned what that is (although I haven't read all the thread).

 

I'm happy to engage in this thread & offer ideas for you but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised that people are prepared to understand a different point of view.

 

I'm not in love with the Govt or Ingeus and have never worked for either. I've seen first hand some of the damage that the disability benefit changes have caused.

 

So, is anyone prepared to discuss how this thread can help them? Share ideas & strategies for helping each other into work?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

This thread strikes me as very odd. There's a group of people sharing strategies to thwart the main aim of a company that has the same goal as them - namely, to assist you into employment. Given that being on the work programme means you have suffered unemployment for an extended period, it would seem obvious that you should take any help going. But instead, you seem to be wanting to make life as difficult as possible.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, Govt schemes of any measure tend to be inefficient & the rationale of some processes seem rather obtuse. But frankly, it's their scheme and you are only on it because you are accepting benefits from them. Therefore, I'd say that they have a right to decide how it goes, who runs it & how. Let's just say you were in a different position & a family member was in your current position. You lend them some money to get them by until they find work - would you accept that it's good manners to let them know what you are doing to find work in order to pay them back? How would you feel if, after accepting your money, they started telling you what jobs they would accept and whether they would share information with you? Or when they will come round and update you?

 

The extreme side of this is the individual who has added to their CV, "I do not give authority to share information with the DWP etc...." to their CV & cover letter. No employer in their right mind would interview you. That strategy is beyond self-defeating.

 

You will get good Ingeus advisors and bad advisors but I'd argue that your experience is worse because of the approach you take with them. The taxpayer is ultimately paying them to be there, their offices, their IT equipment etc... They offer training courses - some good, some bad. What should they do? Offer nothing?

 

But everyone here seems to have a clear opinion on what they shouldn't be doing, given that, I'd guess you have a clear idea of what they SHOULD be doing to help you. No-one has mentioned what that is (although I haven't read all the thread).

 

I'm happy to engage in this thread & offer ideas for you but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised that people are prepared to understand a different point of view.

 

I'm not in love with the Govt or Ingeus and have never worked for either. I've seen first hand some of the damage that the disability benefit changes have caused.

 

So, is anyone prepared to discuss how this thread can help them? Share ideas & strategies for helping each other into work?

There is absolutely no need for you to be so obstinately defensive on the subject of the Welfare To Work Sector in general, or the competence of Deloitte-Ingeus in particular - after all, if the Quality of Service offered by the Welfare To Work Sector was any good, then the success rate would be closer to 90-95% (in terms of facilitating access to sustainable employment), whereas the success rate according to the audited figures is closer to 2.5%-3.5%.

[osdset]

You will get good Ingeus advisors and bad advisors but I'd argue that your experience is worse because of the approach you take with them. The taxpayer is ultimately paying them to be there, their offices, their IT equipment etc... They offer training courses - some good, some bad. What should they do? Offer nothing?

Well yes, it would be better if the providers were out of the equation altogether. The tax payer might well be paying them to provide dreadful offices with out of date computers and no one sufficiently skilled to provide any assistance whatsoever. Just because a scheme is tax payer funded does not mean that it's effective.

 

The evidence is clear, job seekers have a better chance of gaining employment without any intervention by profit driven interests.

[Helpyourself]

Defensive???? I've pointed out it's inefficient & made it clear I don't have much time for either the Govt or Ingeus. I totally accept the "success" rates you have quoted. As I said in my original post, no-one seems to be coming up with any answers. If you can identify that the quality of service is poor, you must surely have some ideas as to what good looks like?

 

The celebrated strategies on here only serve to defeat your own aims. I'm asking the question, can we come up with any ideas that might help everyone and you can influence your experience on the work programme for the better.

 

So any suggestions anyone?

[Helpyourself]

If you are not priviledged enough to have a computer, you'd be happy to use an out-of-date one. I'll say it again, Govt schemes tend be be inefficient, and I'll add to that, my opinion is that they aren't effective.

 

"Some" job seekers have a better chance of gaining employment without intervention, not everyone. "Some" depend on whatever support they can get. Not everyone is as eloquent or gifted in an IT sense as most posters on here.

 

As for "profit-driven." I'm not aware of any WP provider having it away with profits. Quite the contrary, many are seeking to withdraw from the scheme because they are making losses.

[ismael urzaiz]

big problem with our youngsters out of work and no proper apprenticeships the 4/5 year ones were you're a welder,joiner etc..all this money thrown at ingeus and the like could have been drip fed to employers willing to take kids on for 4/5 year apprenticeships... employers don't see much benefit from the first 2 years as an experienced man has to keep an eye on them.so the govt could have payed 50% wages for first few years to encourage firms to take extra kids on

[osdset]

If you are not priviledged enough to have a computer, you'd be happy to use an out-of-date one. I'll say it again, Govt schemes tend be be inefficient, and I'll add to that, my opinion is that they aren't effective.

If I wasn't privileged enough to own a sharp hand saw, I don't think I would be happy to struggle along with a blunt one.

 

"Some" job seekers have a better chance of gaining employment without intervention, not everyone. "Some" depend on whatever support they can get. Not everyone is as eloquent or gifted in an IT sense as most posters on here.

That statement assumes that the majority of job seekers are unable to 'self determine'. It also makes no allowance for the availability of jobs.

Being eloquent, or gifted in the use of a PC should not be a prerequisite for employment.

 

As for "profit-driven." I'm not aware of any WP provider having it away with profits. Quite the contrary, many are seeking to withdraw from the scheme because they are making losses.

News to me. Would you care to name the providers that are queuing up to withdraw?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

big problem with our youngsters out of work and no proper apprenticeships the 4/5 year ones were you're a welder,joiner etc..all this money thrown at ingeus and the like could have been drip fed to employers willing to take kids on for 4/5 year apprenticeships... employers don't see much benefit from the first 2 years as an experienced man has to keep an eye on them.so the govt could have payed 50% wages for first few years to encourage firms to take extra kids on

Given that candidates who opt for University Training may have to take out Student Loans to pay the £9K per annum Tuition Fees, ending up with Student Debt approaching £40K-£50K after 3-4 years study, with the taxpayer bankrolling this, it would be far better that, if employers do not provide sponsorship or placements, that those employers who do should not subsidise those who do not.

 

Hence, rather than a tax break (or the Government paying tax funds to businesses as a subsidy), it would be far better that the Government introduced a levy onto those SME's who do not offer any support for College/University Students based on the Debt Load of each student.

[Helpyourself]

Well, the responses so far have regrettably been completely expected. Bar Ismael (hat tip to you for coming up with some ideas).

 

I figured that I'd be tagged as some Ingeus/Govt supporter & then someone else would deconstruct one of my posts referencing aspects that have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

 

As for the WP providers withdrawing, there's more than enough information in the public domain for you to easily gather which ones.

 

Back to Ismael, unfortunately you are right. The "proper" apprenticeships you mentioned are in the manufacturing sector - and we all know how that has been decimated over the last 20-30 years and is receiving a final nail in the coffin now. Money isn't being thrown at WP providers as you'd think, firstly it is principally an outcome based model, i.e. you get job, they get paid, and even then, it's over period of time they get sustainment payments.

 

The Govt is throwing money at apprenticeships. Employers get a £1500 apprentice grant after 13 weeks which isn't too bad considering the apprentice wage. There is also a Young Persons Wage incentive - best part of £2500 for an employer.

 

Overall, I think you are heading in the right direction with the idea. Rather than throwing money at unhelpful training courses (most, not all!) & legions of funded organisations set up to advise people how to get jobs or encourage them into self-employment, there's a lot to be said for allocating greater amounts to employers creating employment.

[Helpyourself]

Hence, rather than a tax break (or the Government paying tax funds to businesses as a subsidy), it would be far better that the Government introduced a levy onto those SME's who do not offer any support for College/University Students based on the Debt Load of each student.

 

At least we are starting to get some ideas through about what should be done. There might be more than a few business owners who might want a vigorous debate about that suggestion RP.

 

Anyway, this thread seems initially to be about individual issues with WP (Ingeus) providers. Anyone got any ideas as to how they can get into sustained employment? Tackling the "what the Govt should do" might take a little longer than all of us have. What can "we" do to help each other?

[antone]

Well, the responses so far have regrettably been completely expected. Bar Ismael (hat tip to you for coming up with some ideas).

 

 

What responses did you expect? Exactly the one you got, of course, which leads me to wonder why you are here. You appear to have joined this forum with the specific intention of scolding its members. Most of the time, it's considered appropriate to spend time learning about the forum culture and rules before posting inflamatory rhetoric and complaining that your pearls of wisdom are not sufficiently appreciated.

[osdset]

I figured that I'd be tagged as some Ingeus/Govt supporter & then someone else would deconstruct one of my posts referencing aspects that have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

If you managed to figure all that out in advance, it beggars the question as to why you made the post in the first place. Having posts deconstructed only happens when someone posts garbage in the first place.

 

As for the WP providers withdrawing, there's more than enough information in the public domain for you to easily gather which ones.

Hmm, either I'm a complete duffer with this surfing lark, or there actually isn't anything out there about WP providers deserting the sinking ship. Cite your sources and prove your statement.

[Helpyourself]

What responses did you expect? Exactly the one you got, of course, which leads me to wonder why you are here. You appear to have joined this forum with the specific intention of scolding its members. Most of the time, it's considered appropriate to spend time learning about the forum culture and rules before posting inflamatory rhetoric and complaining that your pearls of wisdom are not sufficiently appreciated.

 

If I see someone in the street & I think or perceive that they may be in need of assistance, I'm the one that walks over and offers that assistance. I don't walk by. I don't see the "specific intention of scolding its members," I do see having a different perspective, perhaps that may resonate with some & help.

 

As much as advice dealing with Ingeus can be offered, can a discussion on how to help each other get a job be allowed? Or how best to approach dealing with Ingeus?

 

You play a dangerous game of censorship when one of the site team appears to try & bully someone here with the clear intention of assistance (albeit from a differing perspective), off the thread.

[antone]

If I see someone in the street & I think or perceive that they may be in need of assistance, I'm the one that walks over and offers that assistance. I don't walk by. I don't see the "specific intention of scolding its members," I do see having a different perspective, perhaps that may resonate with some & help.

 

As much as advice dealing with Ingeus can be offered, can a discussion on how to help each other get a job be allowed? Or how best to approach dealing with Ingeus?

 

You play a dangerous game of censorship when one of the site team appears to try & bully someone here with the clear intention of assistance (albeit from a differing perspective), off the thread.

 

You walked in here and addressed people like they were a meeting of juvenile delinquents. As I said, the polite thing to do is to learn and understand.

 

If you wish to start a "how to help each other get jobs" thread, feel free to do so.

[Helpyourself]

The polite thing to do if someone arrives with the best intentions but perhaps not in the manner afforded by experience, is to welcome them & guide them if they are sailing close to the wind.

 

"Learn & understand." Has anyone afforded me that courtesy today - has anyone tried?

 

You can keep your big sticks & subtle censorship - I'll take my time & efforts elsewhere.

 

So much for waking up today & having the wild notion of trying to help/support others. This is why people are reluctant to do it.