Imminent Charge on property Lloyds bank Business Loan pse help someone...

[Muffintop]

I have been on here bank wise for a while really really need some help.

Husbands company went into insolvency after he was taken for a lot of money from company that went bust. As a result he owes Lloyds 23k and he signed an agreement to say that if his company went into insolvency then he would be responsible for the debt... happy days.. now Lloyds have a solicitor negotiating with husband by e mail! and given him 7 days to accept a charge is applied for on our property which has equity or he goes to court and then he will have to pay maybe 40k in costs and the loan and get a charge... How true is this,,, the fact that if we dont accept the charge we will have to pay all costs etc wont the judge be anyway sympathetic.. husband has offered to pay back at a rate of 250 a month but they wont have it.. really need advise caggers

[andrew1]

Ouch - sorry to hear that muffintop. I take it this was an overdraft Directors guarantee was it?

 

Can you give us a little more information about this at all? What was the debt for - a loan? an overdraft?

 

Have you got a copy of the agreement your husband made you can post up?

 

You say that Lloyds have a solicitor 'negotiating' what exactly does that mean and how was this solicitor introduced into the equation and when.

 

I've negotiated with Lloyds in the past and there is a knack, but I had to play some considerable artful dodger tactics to win and it depends exactly how good your husband is at these kinds of bluff cat and mouse games. It can be done, but I have acute hearing on the phone (or had) and played on every word.

 

Has this gone to their Debt Management or enforcement department - is the solicitor a Lloyds solicitor or an outside firm?

 

Sorry for so many questions but I'll need that to help. I doubt this will cost 20 odd k in legal costs - for what? They are just trying to scare him into accepting it. He needs to get into a stalling mode

 

He can only apply for a charging order through the courts I believe so I'd wait for the application for the charging order and defend it if it's that late in the day, go to the court if your up to it if it becomes that urgent and once you've done an income and expenditure for the court you may well have the judge agree to your £250 a month following which we can start to strip their agreements to bits.

 

Give me some more background and I'll try and help.

[Muffintop]

Firm of solicitors in Leeds working for Lloyds have basically filed claim n1 in court and husband has responded without speaking to me first and admitted the debt... I can all paperwork the original loan agreement and his responses by e mail and the solicitors taking out any personal details.

Im thinking husband has been forced to take out this loan or the threat was the bank manager was taking away his business overdraft and at that stage it would have seen husbands business go under.

Loan was due to an business overdraft which was 15k I believe, basically the small bank branch manager said to husband over and over that they were going to reduce the overdraft unless husband took out a loan against his company.. then when it was reduced to 10k manager said he was going to reduce it again and again so on so on. Bank manager came to husbands work premises with the loan paperwork and almost hassled him until he agreed to take out the loan.

Husbands business was hit hard (small business) couple years ago when a major player took him for a large amount of money when going bust.

This impacted on my husbands business going into liquidation as well... the loan was in the companys name and my husband had at the time of sigining the paperwork agreed that if his business went into liquidation then he became the person that has to pay loan. Now the bank via solicitors are coming after both of us in that they are threatening charge on the house, or all their costs paid which will come to more than the original loan and we will get a charge anyway. I have just said to husband tonight STOP how do you know a judge would say a charge would go on property expecially after you have agreed to make payments to Lloyds in respect of the loan, how do you know we would have to pay their costs. surely a DJ would think that we are trying to negotiate with Lloyds and they are just set on the charging order. stand by for more posts of e mails sent and received.

[Muffintop]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE SAVE AS TO COSTS.

 

E MAIL FROM SOLICITOR

I have now received your admission from court and your offer to pay £ per month. I have taken my client's instructions and they have confirmed that they would be prepared to accept the sum of per month subject to a six monthly review. Please note that payments should be increased at each six monthly review. Please advise by return if you are happy to accept this offer and I will draft up the relevant paperwork so that the court proceedings are not taken any further and the agreement is recorded with the court

[Muffintop]

As you can see from the above e mail my husband didnt appear to defend himself with the N1 claim he admitted owing the loan... now I feel there are mitagating circumstances in that he was sold this loan under duress to consider should we file something else at court and quick?

advice pse greatly appreciated.

[Muffintop]

2nd pushy e mail from solicitor for Lloyds

I refer to your recent email and confirm that my client is prepared to proceed on the following basis:-

1. My client will accept current monthly payments of £ which will be reviewed and increased every six months.

2. You provide my client with equitable charges over your insterest in as security for the amount owing from time to time in respect of the guarantee dated 4 June 2006 in favour of company. The joint owner of our house will be required to give authority for the equitable Charge but her share in the property will not be affected. Provided that the payments referred to above are maintained, no enforcement action will be taken in relation to the Equitable Charge and following receipt of the final payment the Equitable Charge will be removed from the property. If the property is sold in the meantime then my client will be entitled to repayment of any balance then outstanding.

3. If you fail to maintain the payments referred to above my client will then be entitled to take steps in relation to its Equitable Charge if it so wishes.

4. You agree to withdraw any allegations made against my client and agree not to resurrect them at any future date.

5. The terms of this agreement shall not be disclosed to any third party other than to the parties legal advisors or as required by law.

Please confirm whether you are happy to proceed with this agreement, if so I will provide you with documents to sign which I will lodge with the court and the Land Registry.

[Muffintop]

3rd pushy e mail from solicitor for Lloyds

I refer to you my email below and now look forward to hearing from you during the course of the next seven days, failing which I will have to reject your offer with the court and request permission to apply for a charging order over your property.

We havent responded to above e mail yet this was the point i became involved and quickly came on here to get advice from some old caggers who helped me many times back in 2008 anyone subbing and advising would be greatly appreciated.

[andrew1]

STOP is extermely good advice, grab him by the ears and let him look at the screen - STOP Matey, sit down, gather the information and start this like you would a business plan. This has to executed with precision. Lloyds can't just dump a charging order on you willy nilly. You need to have a copy of the agreement, the t & C's, the guarantee document and some legal advice which tells you they can do this on a loan guarantee made by you only on a home which is in both names - HOLD IT! get yourself a pen and paper and start a list. I've been there, liquidations, overdraft guarantees, Lloyds forcing my O/d into a term loan, sold PPI I didn't need or couldn't claim on even if i tried, pressurised by a twit of a manager who couldn't have the guts to manage a tea party.

 

Sit back and take a breath for a second and gather all these documents. If you haven't got them then write to the solicitors asking for them and explaining that without them you cannot put up a proper defence to this and you will seek a time order from the court so that their client can comply (Lloyds) and that you are going to defend this claim. I would write to the court and explain you submitted an acceptance of the debt due to undue pressure from these solicitors and before you had taken professional advice, beg leave of the court to put a stay on any action until you have ALL the full facts to defend yourself otherwise this will not be a fair judgement to give..

 

Get breakdowns of the whole story, start to finish of their involvement and what they did, there are certain CCA issues here I can spot already. Was there any PPI on your loan? - I was forced to buy that as a condition of the loan despite them forcing me just like you were. You do need advice on this, but get someone who knows what the heck he/she is doing on this.

[andrew1]

well I posted the above having not seen the emails, but the sentiments remain the same. having seen this:

 

4. You agree to withdraw any allegations made against my client and agree not to resurrect them at any future date.

5. The terms of this agreement shall not be disclosed to any third party other than to the parties legal advisors or as required by law

 

Nonsense, you reserve your rights to do what ever you want and you'll take whatever advice is deemed necessary whenever and where ever you can as injustices have been incurred.

 

Get all the documentation together as I say and lets take one step at a time. Bed now I'm afraid - lets hope some other caggers come along too...

[Muffintop]

Ouch - sorry to hear that muffintop. I take it this was an overdraft Directors guarantee was it?

 

Can you give us a little more information about this at all? What was the debt for - a loan? an overdraft?

 

Have you got a copy of the agreement your husband made you can post up?

 

You say that Lloyds have a solicitor 'negotiating' what exactly does that mean and how was this solicitor introduced into the equation and when.

 

I've negotiated with Lloyds in the past and there is a knack, but I had to play some considerable artful dodger tactics to win and it depends exactly how good your husband is at these kinds of bluff cat and mouse games. It can be done, but I have acute hearing on the phone (or had) and played on every word.

 

Has this gone to their Debt Management or enforcement department - is the solicitor a Lloyds solicitor or an outside firm?

 

Sorry for so many questions but I'll need that to help. I doubt this will cost 20 odd k in legal costs - for what? They are just trying to scare him into accepting it. He needs to get into a stalling mode

 

He can only apply for a charging order through the courts I believe so I'd wait for the application for the charging order and defend it if it's that late in the day, go to the court if your up to it if it becomes that urgent and once you've done an income and expenditure for the court you may well have the judge agree to your £250 a month following which we can start to strip their agreements to bits.

 

Give me some more background and I'll try and help.

Hi yes was originally an business overdraft which was forced into a loan. It appears to be outside firm of solicitors for Lloyds can name in PM.

Think letter came in from Lloyds and he rang then to negotiate and it had been passed to a firm of solicitors in Leeds He sent an income and expenditure and a humble letter of circumstances how the debt arose. I can see he was sent a formal letter in June 2010 stating bank requires repayment proposals for consideration and they even offered him the opportunity of full and final settlement.I dont know why but husband does not seem to have responded at this stage. Another letter received this time from solicitor who Lloyds instructed dated October 2010 asking for

balance to be paid

reasonable proposals for repayment

why he believes that he is not liable

Im going to scan all this in tomorrow.

 

Can see that he had letter to say this would be fast tracked case I feel we should submit an allocation questionnaire and request a stay perhaps whilst we get advise re a complaint that he was sold under duress from bank manager and speak to fos... what do you think

He has sent an acknowledgement of service and on it admitted to owing the amount

[Muffintop]

Want a big thankyou to andrew.. Bed for me too now but i feel that now there is some hope of getting somewhere with this.

I believe he was misold this loan through duress and want to defend as such.

I believe a solicitor will find something in this agreement that doesnt stack up and can be defended

first off he needs to do tomorrow what you suggest im going to scan all paperwork at work and e mail over to myself so that i can post up.x

[car2403]

So, there's potentially a case here where you could defend the claim by admitting that you didn't consider the legal implications of entering an early admission and that, having fully researched the claim now, that you believe you admitted the debt in error and should be given the opportunity to defend the claim.All fine and well, right, but you will need to show that you have a realistic prospect of successfully defending the claim, so - just as pointed out above - now is not the time to ignore this and apply 'ostrich syndrome' to it. (Sorry, but tough love, and all that needs applying here)Even if you can show realistic prospect, a Judge may not agree to admonish your admission and allow you to defend, but I think you have to give it a go at least.The question is, then, on what basis could you defend AND go on to win with? If you are allowed to defend, then lose, that is going to be MUCH more expensive than dealing with the Charging order threat you have right now, IMHO.As for the CO, there must be reasons for it not being granted - have a look around CAG, as there's plenty of examples of this. Prejudice to Lloyds over other debtors - all debtors should be considered by the Court when awarding a CO, as how can they prioritise one over the other. Is this a family home? They shouldn't apply a CO to a property that is in joint names, where a family resides, as that's against the wishes of the parties to the property. (Them BOTH having a JOINT and EQUAL share of the equity) Is this account in hubby's name, only? Then they should be enforcing using other means than a CO.In brief, there's a lot more info we need here to be able to help, there's a lot you need to get your (and more importantly, hubby's!) head around and there's a lot more help we can offer you along the way.Personally, I wonder why they are pushing for a CO by consent, if they are so convinced that they can go to Court, win, you default and then they can enforce in this way.

[Muffintop]

Car so grateful to have your input thankyou.. yes husbands debt his name only, it was a business overdraft that he was pushed into taking out a business loan to pay it off and had to put his name down as a guarantor if his company was to fail... think its called a directors loan... the bank manager wouldnt let up, he was always ringining my husband and turning up at his work paperwork and pen in hand literally pushing him to sign. Alternative was husbands business would ahve gone under at that point if he had to pay the overdraft facility off there and then as he couldnt pay his suppliers, he was forced into taking the business loan and didnt realise the implications. Surely the bank manager had a duty not to push someone into a loan by threatening them in a way all the time? Husband was then taken by large restaurant chain that went bust took him for 20k and it finished him off, so his business was disolved and everything handed over to the administrators. When letters were sent from Lloyds threatening he hadnt kept up payments for the business loan, it was because he wasnt allowed to have anything to do with the old company the disolved company and he forwarded anything to do with it to the administrators.

 

When the solicitor contacted him working on behalf of Lloyds,, he did do an osterich for a while, I think he thought like the unsecured bank credit card debts they would just leave him alone.. wrong as this is effectively a secured loan. What really upsets me is the only thing I have is equity in the house, thats our future, thats everything I have worked for since I was 16.. Im 50 this year and this is my future. If Lloyds are successfull in obtaining a charging order that effects my share in the property as well, in any case its our future as we planned to sell when I retire and buy something smaller outright. I have started scanning paperwork and putting the first lot up tonight and the agreement tomorrow. I rang a solicitor today but they want 200 an hour and an account of 600 up front.. we cant afford that.

I feel that we must at least try to defend we were misold something and pressurised into it, so have today done the N244 and a request to the judge to allow husband (or me on his behalf) to allow us to defend our case, I have also writtend for a sar request to see if they have any details of meetings with the bank manager and find out if there was ppi insurance sold as well, I have also done written complaint to bank about the way he was sold loan and hoping this will stall things at court in order for me to get advice and for the judge to allow a stay until all this investigation is done.. Also hoping that even if it does go to court that the judge will see that husband has tried to negotiate a figure of payment to them of a substantial amount a month and they turned it down unless we agree to sign a charging order.. please keep with me.

[Muffintop]

Struck a problem scanned all docs from work adobe pdf but cant copy it to thread.. any ideas how to do it, tried cut copy paste but that doesnt work in adobe.. used to use photoshop few years ago..

[andrew1]

Just Pm'd and emailed..

[car2403]

Upload to photobucket and stick the [ IMG ] tags in here

[Guest]

Hi

 

Yes lets have a look at the agreement.

 

Chin up

Peter

[Muffintop]

Thanks guys I have a really strong team of you on my thread now that makes me happier.. Andrew has helped unbust the claim form but the agreement needs to be scanned and its huge to check enforceability, I did have photobucket but it went a bit funny when I changed laptops and think may have to reinstall.. a question though, are business directors loans with a guarantee my husband! after his business was disolved, open to the same ccas and being properly executed in the same way other loans are?

[Muffintop]

These are the POC, not easy to read as scanned in wrong format and gone a bit haywire in the transition. I will do next lot in photobucket if i can sort it out.

 

 

 

Please note that your Part 7 claim is subject to an Automatic Orders Pilot Scheme effective from 1October 2009 pursuant to Part 51 of the Civil Procedure Rules. Further information can be found in the Practice Direction at

http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/practice_directions/pd_part51 b.htm or on the

 

 

HM

Court Service website at

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk.

The following automatic orders apply:

 

 

1.

Where any party fails to file an Allocation Questionnaire within the time period specified the Court

will automatically issue a notification that the defence/claim/counterclaim will be struck out automaticallyif an Allocation Questionnaire is not filed within 7 days of service of that notification.

 

 

2.

Where a party in a Fast Track case (where there is only one claimant and one defendant) and

upon expiry of the date for filing a

Pre Trial Checklist the Court will automatically issue a notification

that

the defence/claim will be struck out automatically if a Pre Trial Checklist is not filed within 7 days

service of that notification.

3.

Where all parties indicate on the Allocation Questionnaires N150 and N151 that they request a

fi

rst stay on a claim, the court will automatically issue a stay for one month.

Yo

urs faithfully,

 

admission (specified amount)

PARTI

CULARS OF CLAIM

Th

e Claimant is a bank carrying business at its head office in London, and offi ces and *

b

ranches throughout the United Kingdom. At all material times,

(the Co

mpany) was a customer of the Claimant.

On or

around , the Claimant advanced to the Company the sum of £ upon

Bus

iness Loan Account Number ..th e Business Loan).

3 Un

der the terms of the Business Loan, the Company agreed to repay the Claimant the outstand ing

ba

lance in monthly in stalment payments. The interest rate payable under the Business Loan was

1

1.7?% per annum. The Company fa iled to make the required monthly instalment payments.

4 B

y a letter dated , the Claimant made available to the Company a busin ess

o

verdraft on account _i n the sum of (th e First Business

Over

dr aft). A copy of the First Busi ness Overdraft is attached.

5

The terms and conditions of the First Business Overdraft requ ired the Company to repay any

overd

ra\\ n amou nts on demand. The interest rate payable under the First Business Overdra ft was

i

nitially 14.\ 6% per annum, and was decreased to 10.56% per annum by the Claimant

6

The Claimant provided the Company with a second business overdraft fac il ity under account

n

um .(lhe Second Busi ncss Ovcrdraft).

7

The terms and conditions of the Second Busi ness O\'erdraft required the Company to repay any

o

verdrawn amounts on demand. The imerest rate payable under the Second Business O\·erd raft

was

10.56% per annum.

8

In consideration for the Claimant providing the Company wi th fi nanc ial faci lities, on -l June

, the Defendant entered into a guarantee (t he Guarant ee), limited to a princ ipal amount of

£

plus imerest and costs. Pursuant to the Guarantee, the Defenda nt guaranteed the

lia

bil ities oflhe Company to the Claimant. A copy of the Guarantee is attached

9 Pursuant

to c lause 2.2 of the Guarantee, the Defend an t agreed to make payment on demand and

the

Claimant was entit led to demand payment from the Defendant , even if it had nol tried to

o

btain paymenl from the Company before hand.

1

0 Pursuan t 10 cla use 3 of the Guarantee, interest was payable on sums due under the Guarantee

from th

e date of demand for payment, at the highest rate of interest paya ble by the Company on

a

ny oflhe Company's liab ilities to the Claim ant.

1

1 The Com pany failed to maintain the payments due ,.

O

verdraft, and the Second Bus iness Overdraft. On b

.

the Business Loan, the First Business

_ t

he Claimant fonna lly demanded

from th

e Company the sums due, which stood at £ 16,399.70 under the Busi ness Loan, £6 ,29 1.69

u

nder the First Business Overdraft and £37.73 under the Second Bus iness Overdraft.

1

2 On I~, the Claimant fonnally demanded from the Defendant the sum due under the

Guarant

ee, the amount of £

13

The Defendant fa iled to comply with the Cla imant's formal letter of demand and the sum due

und

er the Guarantee rem ains due and owing.

14 As a

t 13 October 20 10, the sum outstanding from the Defendant to the Claimant pursuant to the

Guarantee

stood at

15

Interest is accruing on the sum olltsta nding under the Guarantee from the date of demand at a rate

of

10.56% per annum, a present dai ly rate of £6.82. (: t

AND THE

CLAIMANT CLAIMS

•

pursuant to the Guarantee;

•

Interest upon the £rrom at a rate o r 10.56% per annum, a present

dai

ly rate of £6.82, until judgment, payment or a change in the interest rate payable under the

Gua

rantee.

• Costs

STATEMENT OF

TRUTH

The

Claimant be!ie\'cs that the contents of these PaJ1iculars of Claim are true. I am duly authorised by

[Muffintop]

No news from the court today, still not managed to get this agreement up as bin offering other caggers advice... am I correct that cca isnt covered in business indemnities and therefore we cannot request cca as there isnt one only this indemnity agreement which was signed but not dated at same time. Does this mean that prescribed terms and conditions do not apply on this and we cannot use this stance as unenforceable.. Still going along the misold loan route though pressurised into taking it out and not given proper advice.. I presume Lloyds must be overseen by OFT?

[Muffintop]

THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE WITH ME... CAN SOMEONE TAKE A LOOK AND TELL ME IF THIS IS COVERED BY CCA LEGISLATION, OR ANY LEGISLATION AS GONNA HVE TO DO A DEFENSE SOON.

 

GUARANTEE AND INDEMNITY AGREEMENT

 

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00007-1.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00006.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00005.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00004.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00003.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00002.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00001.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo137/skeggs885/LLOYDSJAZZYJ/CCF25052011_00000.jpg

 

PAGE 10 OF 10 IS SIGNED BUT NOT DATED AND WE DONT RECOGNISE THE NAME OF THE WITNESS.

[Guest]

My ears man

 

Looking as we speak

 

Peter

[Muffintop]

Thanks Peter,, btw dont know why I keep getting a twitter page inbetween my posts

[Guest]

Sorry M, I am notg going to be of much help to you with thiis , to far aout of my sphere of knowlege. perhaps the business section, i will have a look around the forum for you.

Peter

[Muffintop]

aghhh what happened to the rest of my posts?