train fines and wrong addresses

[AvAn]

I've been worrying about a situation that happened the other day.

 

I got a train from the west country to the midlands(the main part of my journey).

 

I had bought return tickets for this.

 

I had to change over and get a half hour long journey to another destination.

I only had a four to five minute change-over time to catch this train(from the same platform that i had just got off the last train onto.)

I did not have a ticket for this final part of the journey but was confident that i'd be able to get one on board as i have bought one from this station on the train many times with no problem.

 

On getting aboard the train, as soon as it started to leave i was approached by ticket collectors.

On asking how much the fare was I was told that i was not allowed to buy on the train and would be issued a fine.

I was not told the amount of the fine and was informed it would be by post.

 

I had nightmare images of it being hundreds of pounds and panicing gave not one but 3 false addresses

(the last was the house i previously lived in where i knew i would be able to collect the post as friends live there -- they accepted this address.)

 

I had not seen any signs detailing what the standard penalty is on the station or the train, despite the conductor claiming they are 'everywhere'.

 

I was read my rights for giving false addresses and told i would recieve a letter detailing what would happen 'in a few weeks'. I signed the notebook.

 

I did not receive any paperwork from the ticket person.

Now I am worried about extent of fine, conviction etc...

.would I have any success in appealing due to the fact i had intended to buy on train rather than dodge the fare

and i had valid tickets for the majority of my journey plus a very brief changeover train time,

or have I completely shot myself in the foot by giving false addresses?

(including the last place, which i moved out of a year ago)

[Stigy]

Unfortunately you've done yourself no favours here and have dug yourself something of a rather large hole!

 

It wasn't a fine or a Penalty Fare you were issued, and the Train Operating Company (TOC) won't be issuing you one through the post directly. For a fine to be imposed you'll have to be convicted at a Magistrates' Court, which I'm afraid is quite likely in this case if the TOC decide to prosecute. You'll likely be prosecuted under Section 5.3(b) and 5.3© of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The former relates to you only paying for part of your journey, with the intent to defraud the TOC of the cost of the remainder. The latter relates to the false details. The former offence depends of what can reasonably be proved to be honest, and will have been bottomed out during questioning under caution. Offences under RRA 1889 are recordable on the Police National Computer and tend to mean a heftier fine at Court (about £350 plus costs etc usually depending on means). If prosecuted under a railway Byelaw, it wont be recorded on the PNC and the fine will be a lot less. Either way you'll obtain a criminal record though.

 

You can't really do anything until the TOC write to you at one of your addresses, but when they do, give them all the info they request and express how sorry you are. I suggest offering to meet all their reasonable admin charges to remain out of court, as this could severely affect your future job prospects etc. Tell them it's the first time you've ever done such a stupid thing (assuming it was of course!) and you've truely learned your lesson. They don't have to accept this offer, but it'll save you a lot of grief on the long run if they do, I'm sure!

 

Unfortunately the initial correspondence could take several weeks to arrive (often around 8-weeks!), so don't panick if you don't receive anything, although it doesn;t help that the TOC has 3 addresses to potentially confuse with one another! One question though, did you give the final address so as to avoid further corresponce, as it too, by your own admission, is false, although you knoiw who lives there? Just seems rather strange to me.

 

To sum up; I believe you were cautioned, questioned and reported as the RPIs suspected that you might have committed offences. It's not a Penalty Fare matter and you were reported by them, hence the caution. The RPI will submit a report (form MG11) and it will be forwarded to the relevant Prosecutions Dept.

[AvAn]

Thanks Stigy, so will I receive a criminal record even if I manage to settle out of court? It is quite important as I work on a self-employed basis (for pretty much minimum wage as well- can this affect the fine?) in the legal system. I could be sacked if receive a criminal record from this and also will affect career prospects...all for a ticket that I was intending to buy in the first place!

Also is it standard practice for the conductors not to inform of the cost of the fine when they initially go to fine you. No figures were once mentioned during the whole incident. It was this that caused me to panic and supply the false details- if i had been told the standard fine is only £20 I wouldnt have paniced and got myself into more trouble.

The first two addresses I gave were variations on a place I lived at when I was younger, they worked out this was false. The third addressis a house I moved from a year ago but it is near my street and still have good friends there. My thinking was I wanted to receive the letter but have space to think at a distance removed, if that makes sense.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks Stigy, so will I receive a criminal record even if I manage to settle out of court? It is quite important as I work on a self-employed basis (for pretty much minimum wage as well- can this affect the fine?) in the legal system. I could be sacked if receive a criminal record from this and also will affect career prospects...all for a ticket that I was intending to buy in the first place!

Also is it standard practice for the conductors not to inform of the cost of the fine when they initially go to fine you. No figures were once mentioned during the whole incident. It was this that caused me to panic and supply the false details- if i had been told the standard fine is only £20 I wouldnt have paniced and got myself into more trouble.

The first two addresses I gave were variations on a place I lived at when I was younger, they worked out this was false. The third addressis a house I moved from a year ago but it is near my street and still have good friends there. My thinking was I wanted to receive the letter but have space to think at a distance removed, if that makes sense.

 

NO, you only get a criminal record if you are convicted of a criminal offence by a Court

 

You should not give details that you can be identified from in posting here, but it is important which train operating company (TOC) you were travelling with in order to dispel possible misunderstandings that you seem to have.

 

Firstly, not all TOCs have Penalty Fares schemes and secondly, any Penalty Fare is not just £20.00

 

Which train company were you travelling with and where were you travelling to and from? It will help determine how you might be dealt with and by whom.

 

A penalty fare is at least £20.00 and is the greater of that minimum or twice the single fare for the journey being made, so, if the single fare would have been more than a tenner, the penalty would be twice that.

 

If you were travelling on Cross Country there are NO penalty fare notices and it is likely you will have been reported for prosecution.

 

Given that you did not receive any paperwork, I assume that you have been reported for a similar process, whichever TOC you were travelling with.

 

When your friend receives the letter at your old address, the worst thing that you can do is to ignore it.

 

.

[Stigy]

Thanks Stigy, so will I receive a criminal record even if I manage to settle out of court? It is quite important as I work on a self-employed basis (for pretty much minimum wage as well- can this affect the fine?) in the legal system. I could be sacked if receive a criminal record from this and also will affect career prospects...all for a ticket that I was intending to buy in the first place!

Also is it standard practice for the conductors not to inform of the cost of the fine when they initially go to fine you. No figures were once mentioned during the whole incident. It was this that caused me to panic and supply the false details- if i had been told the standard fine is only £20 I wouldnt have paniced and got myself into more trouble.

The first two addresses I gave were variations on a place I lived at when I was younger, they worked out this was false. The third addressis a house I moved from a year ago but it is near my street and still have good friends there. My thinking was I wanted to receive the letter but have space to think at a distance removed, if that makes sense.

Firstly, No you won't receive a Criminal Record if you settle out of Court. This counts as the case being closed.

 

Secondly, you seem to be mistaken. As I have said, the RPI did not fine you, only the court can do that. I think you are mistakening a fine for a Penalty Fare anyway, although you were not Penalty Fared either. You were reported for the consideration of prosecuting you for offences. The reason no 'fine' levels were mentioned was because it was irrelevant as you were NOT Penalty Fared.

 

And finally, the level of the court fine should you be prosecuted does depend on your means. You will have to fill out a means form which states how much you earn, along with how much you spend etc. You need to fill it out accurately, especially if as you say, times are tough, as if this doesn't show, you could be fined a lot more!

[Old-CodJA]

Whether or not an opportunity to settle out of Court is allowed is entirely up to the TOC.

 

Once you failed to pay the correct fare before travelling and then gave false details to the ticket inspector, you are very likely to be reported and the case listed for prosecution. By giving false details you provided rail staff with good cause to report you for intending to avoid payment. By repeating that on more than one occasion you compounded this, making the likelihood of prosecution much more likely.

 

You can only try to avoid this outcome by being entirely honest in dealing with any correspondence and in answering, you can only ask the TOC to consider allowing an out of Court resolution. The final decision is theirs.

[AvAn]

The journey was only £5 ticket, seems extreme to potentially ruin my livelihood for that! Is there not any grounds for appeal if it goes to court? i know the false addresses was a stupid impulsive action but does the fact that it was a short journey, there was only a brief train time change-over, I intended to pay from the outset and had a ticket for the first large part of my journey count as any kind of mitigation?

[Wriggler7]

'Mitigation' are any factors which will make the 'crime' seem less bad. If you try to think like a Magistrate, or 'the man on the Clapham omnibus', and look at what you think is mitigation, do those things make it less bad or more bad?

 

The warning for anyone trying to reduce the impact of being found guilty, or pleading guilty, is that if your mitigation varies enormously from the truth, the prosecutor, and in some circumstances, the defence counsel, may leap to his or her feet and tell the Court that they are being misled.

[Wriggler7]

Whether it is 'extreme' to potentially ruin lives/careers and so on over a £5.00 fare, you need to remember that it is the actions of 'the offender' that are being examined, not the choices of the prosecuting authority.

[honeybee13]

The journey was only £5 ticket, seems extreme to potentially ruin my livelihood for that! Is there not any grounds for appeal if it goes to court? i know the false addresses was a stupid impulsive action but does the fact that it was a short journey, there was only a brief train time change-over, I intended to pay from the outset and had a ticket for the first large part of my journey count as any kind of mitigation?

 

Hello there. I don't know what the others think, as I have no experience of court, but the argument over a fiver could work against you. A lay person like myself [and I believe magistrates are lay people] might argue that it it's not much money, you should have paid it.

 

Also, it is the passenger's responsibility to seek out a ticket inspector on the train and buy a valid ticket if they don't have one.

 

My best, HB

[Stigy]

Hello there. I don't know what the others think, as I have no experience of court, but the argument over a fiver could work against you. A lay person like myself [and I believe magistrates are lay people] might argue that it it's not much money, you should have paid it.

 

Also, it is the passenger's responsibility to seek out a ticket inspector on the train and buy a valid ticket if they don't have one.

 

My best, HB

Absolutely. Also, all these £5 fares add up! I've reported people for £1.90 fares and succeded quite easily at court!

 

AvAn, you can always appeal the Magistrates' decision, but I believe the appeal will be heard by the Crown...

[Maxwell TM]

Yep, I once reported an habitual offender for a £1 evasion between the 2 Worcester stations. Not a happy bunny

[SRPO]

I dont think its about the amount of the fare avoided, its to show that people who 'steal' journeys will be dealt with robustly.

There is an attitude at the moment that trivial things should be ignored, in my experience if you can nip minor offences in the bud they wont grow into serious offending.

Im all in favour of zero tolerance for minor offences like speeding, shoplifting, public order, criminal damage & fare evasion, it will set the boundaries that parents & teachers fail to give young people.

There are a lot of victims of crime & offenders in jail that wouldnt be there if someone had just said 'No, you cant do that'.

[AvAn]

RE: SRPO's reply_

we truely are living in a Tory country arent we if you class this 'crime' as the same as criminal damage etc and I am not a 'young person who needs boundaries'. The fact is that on this particular journey there has previously seemingly been a policy for years where conductors go round the train selling tickets from a small machine to those who do not have one, not once have they previously said 'you should have bought one at the station' etc. Why should I be criminalised due to the double standards of the railways? ( I hasten to add that it is the exact same rail company that usually dish out tickets on board that have done this.) If you see things in black and white this much then you have a very simplistic view of the law and have led an extremely sheltered existence.

I was fully intending to pay and asked the conductor for a ticket as they approached me as soon as the train left the station, i had the money there, I would have paid a penalty fare etc...I came here for advice (and granted have received it from some helpful people) not ridiculous and patronising self-righteous put-downs

[Wriggler7]

Ladies, gents, are we at risk of 'personalising' this thread?

 

Things are never 'black and white'. 'Fare dodging' must be considered, if in the same spectrum, lesser than criminal damage, the prosecution of fare dodging is 'summary only', shoplifting (theft) is 'triable either way'. That is to say, fare dodging is only heard in the Magistrates Court, theft can be heard in either 'Mags' or the Crown Court.

 

Under the old rules of whether a country is socialist or not, it is normally considered that if a 'state' spends more than 25% of GDP, the country is socialist, and my own view of world history is that socialist countries are the ones where petty crimes are punished most severely. That is just a personal view.

 

However, minor crime is often an indicator of a propensity to commit crime generally. (often, not always) As such, it may well be that paying attention to minor crime is very sensible. In one of my local Courts yesterday was a man I know well. He was there for 'bunking' a £2.10 fare. He had in his possesion at the time property which was probably shoplifted, and was 'committing offences whilst on bail'. I know him well, the Court is very familiar with him, and whilst he was there, a passing policeman asked me 'what is he here for?' as he too knows him well. It may well be that he has his liberty removed as a result of a prosecution by the local railway whilst currently on a 'suspended sentence' for theft and also on bail for another theft. It follows that the areas he lives and steals (incidentally, they are the same) will be a better place without him.

[Old-CodJA]

I was fully intending to pay and asked the conductor for a ticket as they approached me as soon as the train left the station, i had the money there, I would have paid a penalty fare etc...I came here for advice (and granted have received it from some helpful people) not ridiculous and patronising self-righteous put-downs

 

I hope that you don't see this as a 'put-down', it isn't mean to be, it is an explanation of why a prosecution would be deemed appropriate

 

You say that you fully intended to pay the fare, but your action in repeatedly giving false details suggests otherwise. In this case as in virtually all others, the amount of the fare is irrelevant.

 

It is on the evidence of your action that the prosecutor's decision is most likely to be made.

 

.

[Grotesque]

AvAN- Curious as to why, if you bought return tickets for 'the main' part of the journey before travelling, why not just buy them point-to-point, for the whole journey, which if nothing else may have worked out cheaper?

 

All the best.

[RPI]

and then ask yourself, if there had been no inspector, would your fare have been paid?

[Maxwell TM]

The only 'criminalising' to have been 'done' here is by the OP, who has potentially raised the stakes from a (Civil Matter) Penalty Fare to a criminal conviction for giving false details.

 

Legislation is by its nature, black and white. It is for the courts to apply the (broader) interpretation. The OP will quite possibly have the opportunity to witness this process in action.

[AvAn]

Nice, Maxwell- more subtle patronising. I have seen court processes in action many times and not from the obvious stand point that you are assuming. I take point with the 'personalising' Wriggler but it seems you are doing exactly that with your unhelpful anecdote- how does this relate to my situation in any way? if anything it should support it- the fact that you list a load of assumptions about a guy the courts know 'only too well' means that I should be at least considered for not possessing stolen goods,not being known in a bad way to the courts, willingly wanting to buy a goddamn ticket etc.....

 

re:Grotesque- I was travelling a journey I often do and always buy tickets for. My friend was going to pick me up from the station i normally get off at but couldnt due to work so I had a quick changeover on the next platform on a journey where prior to this the ticket guys always dished em out on the train with no problem(and for those who are claiming it is a dodged journey etc I have taken this journey many times,never had a 'free' ride, always paid on the train, always had a conductor give tickets). I instantly offered to pay and was rebutted , fined etc....I concede that the false addresses part is where i paniced and went wrong but for various self-righteous dickheads to try and slot me in a bracket with various people they consider habitual offenders/**** is ridiculous. These people are the same kind of sheep that brought Hitler to power. In my eyes the offence was the false addresses which i obviously regret whole-heartedly, can people leave their Daily Mail judgements to themselves. If anyone has anything helpful to say rather than judgements on class/'crime' etc it would be appreciated, the fact is it is me asking for insight, not judgement(again, apologies if this is 'personalising')

[SRPO]

As this is a public forum you have to take the rough with the smooth, there is no point getting upset because no-one has given you a 'get out'.

[Maxwell TM]

Nice, Maxwell- more subtle patronising. I have seen court processes in action many times and not from the obvious stand point that you are assuming. etc etc

 

re:Grotesque- I was travelling a journey I often do and always buy tickets for. My friend was going to pick me up from the station i normally get off at but couldnt due to work so I had a quick changeover on the next platform on a journey where prior to this the ticket guys always dished em out on the train with no problem(and for those who are claiming it is a dodged journey etc I have taken this journey many times,never had a 'free' ride, always paid on the train, always had a conductor give tickets). I instantly offered to pay and was rebutted , fined etc....I concede that the false addresses part is where i paniced and went wrong but for various self-righteous dickheads to try and slot me in a bracket with various people they consider habitual offenders/**** is ridiculous. These people are the same kind of sheep that brought Hitler to power. In my eyes the offence was the false addresses which i obviously regret whole-heartedly, can people leave their Daily Mail judgements to themselves. If anyone has anything helpful to say rather than judgements on class/'crime' etc it would be appreciated, the fact is it is me asking for insight, not judgement(again, apologies if this is 'personalising')

 

 

Invoking selective morality tailored to perceived circumstances is a common reaction to 'being found out'. There is nothing Daily Mailesque nor even 'Tory' in the responses from those who witness these behaviours on a daily basis; more a weary cynicism. It appears that your actions may land you in court and no amount of wriggling on the hook will change that. And whilst we are on the subject of personalising, do you not think that comments ref Hitler and 'dickheads' rather work against your argument?

[Old-CodJA]

I'm pleased that you recognise the false addresses issue, and leaving all the other comparisons and observation aside for a moment, you will need to recognise that it is this specific element that makes the matter so much more serious.

 

So much so, that the law makes the ultimate penalty for conviction for this particular offence imprisonable. I will immediately qualify this comment by saying that you shouldn't be alarmed. A fine is the usual penalty.

 

The custody option is extremely rarely applied and normally only in the cases of recidivist offenders so I wouldn't be concerned by that fact, but I hope that it illustrates why the matter is looked on in the manner that prevails.

 

How can a traveller who hasn't paid and who then gives a false name and address expect a Magistrate to believe that he didn't intend not to pay? Doing so repeatedly just makes it all the more obvious.

 

If the rail inspector had accepted the false name and address without question, how would the traveller be contacted?

 

.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[AvAn]

Thanks Codja, and apologies for offence caused to anyone from my rant, just it's stressing me out a bit (and yes, I definitely would not use the 'rant' approach in court). So my best bet is to write to the TOC when I get the letter then? What about phoning them also, is that reccomended? Is there a rough range that can be indicated of what the fine would be(I think Stigy said around £350...) as i've heard it can be up to a grand.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks Codja, and apologies for offence caused to anyone from my rant, just it's stressing me out a bit (and yes, I definitely would not use the 'rant' approach in court). So my best bet is to write to the TOC when I get the letter then? What about phoning them also, is that reccomended? Is there a rough range that can be indicated of what the fine would be(I think Stigy said around £350...) as i've heard it can be up to a grand.

 

The maximum fine for conviction on a first offence is £1000, BUT that is never the case in my experience

 

Generally, the Magistrates will impose a fine of around the average weekly income for a person in full time employment and that is assessed at £350.00.

 

If you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity and apologise, showing that you are genuinely remorseful, the Magistrates will give credit for that and reduce the fine accordingly. It is not possible to be specific, but the fine could be reduced to around £150 (it could be more or less depending on the Court) and you may be ordered to pay all or part of the prosecution costs, which are usually between £100.00 and £200.00.

 

There would also be a 'victim surcharge' imposed by the government this is a fixed charge of £15.00 applied to anyone fined by a Court. You would be likely to be ordered to pay compensation of the fare avoided.

 

In my experience it is always best to put your request to 'settle out of Court' in writing. You may try telephoning, but it is always best to write promptly when the TOC letter arrives and ensure that your apology and request is on file.

 

.