Making an FOI request to Council regarding Bailiff's help

[caledfwlch]

Hello!

 

I have no specific issue, but I want to make an FOI request to my council to find out what bailiff firm they use, what the contract is etc, fees, what processes the council has in place to deal with complaints regarding bailiff's and so on.

 

Is there a guide on here on what exactly to ask for to maximise the information returned?

 

I am going to try doing it through the what do they know site, to see how well it works/save postage

[the_shadow]

Just keep the requests clear and tailor the questions as to the data you think they will hold.

 

The act states:-

 

The Act gives a right of access to information that is recorded in any form at the time of the request. Public authorities are not required to create new information in order to answer a request. However, in some cases the distinction between creating new information and compiling it from different sources or extracting it from a database may not be clear

 

S.

[caledfwlch]

FOI request made to the Council, all 19 questions!

 

Also made an FOI request to the local Police Force, to discover what training is given when called to situations involving Bailiff's.

 

Are Bailiff firms covered under the FOI legislation, or are they completely exempt as commercial businesses?

[the_shadow]

Exempt as not a public organisation

 

S.

[caledfwlch]

The FOI request I have made is as follows:

 

 

1 Does the Council have a bailiff Code of Conduct in place and if so what is it?

 

2 Does the Council have a service level Agreement with the bailiff and if so what is it?

 

3 How many Liability orders did the Council obtain for the year 2010/2011, up to the date this request is received

 

4 How much does each Liability Order cost the Council?

 

5 How much does the Council add in charges to the Debtors for gaining a Liability Order?

 

6 Do the Council check before issuing the account to the bailiff to see if its debtors may be included in the "vulnerable" category as defined by the National Standards for Enforcement Agents?

 

7 If so, what checks are made, and what guidelines exist for these checks

 

8 If checks are not made, why not?

 

9 Are Council employees trained in the correct procedures of the lawful fees that bailiffs may apply

 

10 Do the Council check regularly to make sure their appointed Bailiffs are carrying out their duties correctly and within the law

 

11 Do the Council have a Complaints procedure in place for those debtors who have a grievance/issue over the Bailiffs actions other than referring them to the Bailiff Company?

 

12 Are council staff trained to negotiate payment plans, when a bailiff has already been assigned, or are they required to refuse, and to tell the debtor to contact the bailiff company

 

13 How many Liability Orders resulted in Bailiff action in 2010/11?

 

14 Of these, how many Liability Orders were successfully collected by Bailiffs, and how many were returned “Nulla Bona”

 

15 How many arrest warrants were issued for non payment of Liability Orders in 2010/11

 

16 Which Company is currently contracted to Ceredigion Council for the enforcement of liability orders

 

17 How many complaints were made to Ceredigion Council in 2010/11 regarding Bailiff’s

 

18 How many Bailiff related complaints in 2010/11 were upheld

 

19 What checks does Ceredigion Council make to ensure that Bailiff’s acting under it’s authority are correctly certified, by a court to work within Ceredigion

[the_shadow]

Hmm you should be aware that there is a threshold limit of £450 I believe on retrieving all this information, if they deem that it would cost more than this to respond they might write back and ask you to make a contribution or tell you how much it'll cost and then you'll need to decide whether to proceed.

 

S.

[caledfwlch]

Hmm you should be aware that there is a threshold limit of £450 I believe on retrieving all this information, if they deem that it would cost more than this to respond they might write back and ask you to make a contribution or tell you how much it'll cost and then you'll need to decide whether to proceed.

 

S.

 

Cut it in half, and then request the rest in a couple of months?

 

Most of it should be "on tap" like contracts and whether staff are trained etc.

[the_shadow]

Cut it in half, and then request the rest in a couple of months?

 

Most of it should be "on tap" like contracts and whether staff are trained etc.

 

 

Yep sounds good to me, like you say they should be able to answer most of it easily

 

S.

[caledfwlch]

Amazingly, the Council have replied, and not requested any money!

 

Its not exactly a surprise, but they confirm that official council policy is to "blame it all on the bailiffs" and put their legal duty of care etc onto the Bailiff firm. You may also be interested to note, that with Ceredigion County Council, it IS official policy to refuse to discuss repayments and to tell the victim to speak to the bailiff!

 

Dear Ceredigion Council,

 

Please provide information for the following questions:

 

1 Does the Council have a bailiff Code of Conduct in place and if

 

so what is it?

 

Yes. The Council has an agreed Code of Practice for Bailiffs as

Schedule 1 of our Agreement with our Bailiffs.

 

2 Does the Council have a service level Agreement with the bailiff

 

and if so what is it?

 

Yes. It is an Agreement between the Council and the Bailiffs and sets

out the conditions and standards of service of both parties.

 

3 How many Liability orders did the Council obtain for the year

 

2010/2011, up to the date this request is received

 

1,654

 

4 How much does each Liability Order cost the Council?

 

Summons costs: Pre 01.04.11 £37.50 (+ £3.00)

 

Post 01.04.11 £40.00

 

5 How much does the Council add in charges to the Debtors for

 

gaining a Liability Order?

 

Liability Order: Pre 01.04.11 £28.00

 

Post 01.04.11 £30.00

 

6 Do the Council check before issuing the account to the bailiff to

 

see if its debtors may be included in the "vulnerable" category as

 

defined by the National Standards for Enforcement Agents?

 

The Council will only send L.O to bailiff if there is no other option.

As soon as the Bailiff comes across a' vulnerable' case they will refer

it back to the Council in order for the Council to take appropriate

action.

 

7 If so, what checks are made, and what guidelines exist for these

 

checks

 

Please refer to 6. above

 

8 If checks are not made, why not?

 

Please refer to 6. above

 

9 Are Council employees trained in the correct procedures of the

 

lawful fees that bailiffs may apply

 

The Council will check with the bailiffs what charges have been

incurred.

 

10 Do the Council check regularly to make sure their appointed

 

Bailiffs are carrying out their duties correctly and within the law

 

The Bailiffs have a complaints register which is examined by external

BSI auditors. Any issues picked up by the auditor will be brought to the

company's attention and remedial action will be taken.

 

11 Do the Council have a Complaints procedure in place for those

 

debtors who have a grievance/issue over the Bailiffs actions other

 

than referring them to the Bailiff Company?

 

The Council advises the chargepayer to contact the Bailiff for a

direct response.

12 Are council staff trained to negotiate payment plans, when a

 

bailiff has already been assigned, or are they required to refuse,

 

and to tell the debtor to contact the bailiff company

 

The Council staff advise the chargepayer to contact the Bailiff. In

some cases the Council will agree to an arrangement, on behalf of the

Bailiff, if the Council has details of the chargepayer's financial

position.

 

13 How many Liability Orders resulted in Bailiff action in 2010/11?

 

554

 

14 Of these, how many Liability Orders were successfully collected

 

by Bailiffs, and how many were returned "Nulla Bona"

 

40 to date

 

15 How many arrest warrants were issued for non payment of

 

Liability Orders in 2010/11

 

None

 

16 Which Company is currently contracted to Ceredigion Council for

 

the enforcement of liability orders

 

Excel Civil Enforcement Ltd.

 

17 How many complaints were made to Ceredigion Council in 2010/11

 

regarding Bailiff's

 

There were some unofficial complaints.

 

18 How many Bailiff related complaints in 2010/11 were upheld

 

None by the Council

19 What checks does Ceredigion Council make to ensure that

 

Bailiff's acting under it's authority are correctly certified, by a

 

court to work within Ceredigion

 

The Agreement stipulates that the Bailiff company is responsible for

ensuring that all Bailiffs employed by the company are certificated as

defined in Regulation 45(6A) of the Council Tax (Administration and

Enforcement) (Amendment) Regulations 1998. The bailiffs operating in the

Ceredigion area are certificated and when there is a change we are

informed by the company of the change of personnel. We can at any time ask

for copies of the Bailiff's certification. The bailiff company knows that

the Council's Agreement can be terminated if they operate outside the

terms of the Agreement.

[caledfwlch]

And Dyfed Powys Police Force replied, pretty speedily with:

 

Under the Freedom of Information Act, please may I request the following information:

 

1. Please could you provide information on what training and guidance is given as standard to Dyfed

Powys Police Officers for dealing with issues such as when they are called to attend a dispute or

disturbance involving Bailiff's? Also, a copy of any guidelines that are issued regarding these matters

as standard.

 

2. If the information is stored or kept, please also provide figures for how many times during 2010:

 

a) Officers attended incidents involving bailiff's and,

b) Whether they were called by the bailiff or by the debtor and,

c) How many of these incidents ended with an arrest.

 

3. If there is no training or guidelines in place, is Dyfed Powys working to rectify this?

 

 

Responses 1 & 3:

 

The Development Services Department has confirmed that Police Constables, Special Constables and

Student Officers receive regular mandated Personal Safety Training which includes a module on Conflict

Management. The training does not specifically involve a dispute involving bailiffs, but applies to any

incident where a breach of the peace might occur.

 

Please find detailed below a hyperlink to the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) website

detailing Guidance on Personal Safety Training:

 

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2009/200907UNPST01.pdf

 

Response 2 (a-c):

 

The Citizen Focus Department has confirmed the following information has been retrieved by searching

for all incident logs (STORM) recorded during 2010 which contained the words “bailiff” or “bailiffs:”

 

a) There are 56 incident logs (STORM) relating to officers attending incidents involving bailiff’s.

 

b) Attendance due to request from bailiff: 27 incident logs (STORM)

Attendance due to request from debtor: 27 incident logs (STORM)

Attendance due to request from third party: 2 incident logs (STORM)

 

c) I can confirm that none of the above incident logs (STORM) ended with an arrest.

[outlawla]

......The bailiff company knows that

the Council's Agreement can be terminated if they operate outside the

terms of the Agreement.

 

Judging by the response to FOI request number 11, it's highly unlikely that the council will get to know if their thugs operate outside the terms of the Agreement.

 

11 Do the Council have a Complaints procedure in place for those

 

debtors who have a grievance/issue over the Bailiffs actions other

 

than referring them to the Bailiff Company?

 

The Council advises the chargepayer to contact the Bailiff for a

direct response.

Edited April 27, 2011 by outlawla

[the_shadow]

Yes, shows the complete lack of oversight of what could potentially be very vulnerable people, shameful but I suspect a similar picture countrywide

 

S.

[caledfwlch]

Yes, shows the complete lack of oversight of what could potentially be very vulnerable people, shameful but I suspect a similar picture countrywide

 

S.

 

I might hit a few more councils with the same, just some welsh ones, to see what sort of picture emerges, but I suspect you are correct.

 

What is a disgrace is the way Ceredigion council tries to wash its hands with regards the vulnerable etc "its up to the bailiffs" I wonder if a court would see it that way if a joint claim was put in for mistreatment.

[the_shadow]

I might hit a few more councils with the same, just some welsh ones, to see what sort of picture emerges, but I suspect you are correct.

 

What is a disgrace is the way Ceredigion council tries to wash its hands with regards the vulnerable etc "its up to the bailiffs" I wonder if a court would see it that way if a joint claim was put in for mistreatment.

 

Hmm I think your correct again the courts would expect the council who are after all just sub contracting out or using a traded service as they like to call it and hence are responsible overall for the actions of the sub contractor.

 

S.

[caledfwlch]

Hmm I think your correct again the courts would expect the council who are after all just sub contracting out or using a traded service as they like to call it and hence are responsible overall for the actions of the sub contractor.

 

S.

 

Aye. I think the website I linked to, for automating/making easier these requests is a bit of gold, and could come in handy for many a Cagger. It also has plenty of stuff others have requested on Bailiff's and so on.

[hallowitch]

I might hit a few more councils with the same, just some welsh ones, to see what sort of picture emerges, but I suspect you are correct.

 

do wrexham council please

[caledfwlch]

I might hit a few more councils with the same, just some welsh ones, to see what sort of picture emerges, but I suspect you are correct.

 

do wrexham council please

 

Done Link to monitor the request below - their should be an acknowledgement of receipt from Wrexham Council first, in the next few days.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/foi_request_for_bailiffs_and_cou

[hallowitch]

Thanks very much for that nice one

 

I made a formal complaint to them last year on behalf of someone

I handed the letter in on the Monday morning addressed the envelope FTO Mr xxxx xxxx Bailiff complaint enclosed

on the Wednesday the person got a letter asking them to phone xxxxxx £300 bailiff fees returned alleged debt still outstanding £250+ gone account closed

 

That was the second one addressed to the same person and i have to say he does seem to do a good efficient job when you make a formal complaint

 

Or it could have been that fantastic letter

[brassnecked]

All the North Wales Councils need to be asked imho, but very interesting reply from Ceredigion, basically pass the buck at all stages back to the bailiff trapping someone vuilnerable who slips through the net in an unending circle of debt and uncertainty. With no access to releif.

[caledfwlch]

All the North Wales Councils need to be asked imho, but very interesting reply from Ceredigion, basically pass the buck at all stages back to the bailiff trapping someone vuilnerable who slips through the net in an unending circle of debt and uncertainty. With no access to releif.

 

I will do some more.

 

I was intruiged that Ceredigions Bailiff contract is with this Excel company - are they "known" on here? Last I knew it was a company called Menai Collect, a VERY nasty outfit, with very nasty people. A typical tactic if they knew it was a bloke they were visiting was call the police for "protection" but ask them to wait around the corner, unless needed as they didnt want to "scare" the debtor, and then as soon as the door was opened, headbutt to the nose, and a shout of "help! bailiff being assaulted" and they were in the house. Of course, charges were never pressed against the debtor for his "assault" nor was anything made of the self defence that led to the debtors broken nose.

 

I also know as fact that A Police Constable and an Inspector based at Aberystwyth Police Station are seriously, seriously bent. We are talking drug dealing and all sorts here. So the Police pliability may not have been completely due to being hoodwinked.

[caledfwlch]

The Same FOI requests have now been made of:

 

Denbighshire County

Conwy County

Flintshire County

Gwynedd County

Isle of Anglesey County

Powys County

Wrexham County

 

So thats all of the North and Mid Wales Councils dealt with.

 

Would it be very cruel of me, if I send the same requests to English and Scottish Councils, but in Welsh? 8-)

[outlawla]

4 how much does each liability order cost the council?

 

summons costs: Pre 01.04.11 £37.50 (+ £3.00)

 

post 01.04.11 £40.00

 

5 how much does the council add in charges to the debtors for

 

gaining a liability order?

 

liability order: Pre 01.04.11 £28.00

 

post 01.04.11 £30.00

 

Can the above figures be clarified? For example how do they compare with the Summons and Liability Order penalties separately payable by the resident and how they justify their costs i.e. how much they pay to the magistrate's court and what figure they have attributed to the work involved by the council.

 

14 of these, how many liability orders were successfully collected

 

by bailiffs, and how many were returned "nulla bona"

 

40 to date

 

Which of the above two questions did they answer?

 

The following quoted from another thread raises, what I think would be a useful addition to this series of FOI requests.

 

if you do end up paying the council direct you must budget for possible bailiff charges. The council are obliged to pay the bailiff before themselves. However not all councils do this and it is not clear who does and who doesn't......

[regan11]

Gwynedd council would be interesting, they are a seriously dodgy bunch. Had a few run ins with them. Got nowhere.

[brassnecked]

The Same FOI requests have now been made of:

 

Denbighshire County

Conwy County

Flintshire County

Gwynedd County

Isle of Anglesey County

Powys County

Wrexham County

 

So thats all of the North and Mid Wales Councils dealt with.

 

Would it be very cruel of me, if I send the same requests to English and Scottish Councils, but in Welsh? 8-)

 

 

NO :lol::lol:

[caledfwlch]

Can the above figures be clarified? For example how do they compare with the Summons and Liability Order penalties separately payable by the resident and how they justify their costs i.e. how much they pay to the magistrate's court and what figure they have attributed to the work involved by the council.

 

 

 

Which of the above two questions did they answer?

 

The following quoted from another thread raises, what I think would be a useful addition to this series of FOI requests.

 

As I understand the liability order figures as presented, it now "costs" the Council £40 to lodge a Liability Order with the Court, but they are only charging the Debtor £30. Which seems rather crazy - not only does £40 sound pretty high for what is almost a simple admin exercise, but I cannot believe that they are making a "Loss" of £10 per order - something is not right there, also the Nulla Bona question, needs clarifying.

 

I will have to try and bang together a new short FOI request to tackle the 2 issues - also, I wouldnt mind finding out how long Excel have had the contract/ when Menai Collect lost their contract, I wonder if complaint figures for years where MC were the contracted firm will be much higher.

 

Any suggestions/help/ideas on how to formulate and what to put in the new FOI gratefully accepted - it will also be interesting to compare when the other mentioned authorities start returning the info.

 

Ceredigion took nearly 3 weeks to a month to even acknowledge the FOI Request, and then about the same to provide the Info - in Contrast, I made the requests to the other Authorities about 5am this morning 8) and they have all responded, before 10am with acknowledgement of receipt! Flintshire though, is an automated reply - the FOI member of staff that will be dealing with the request is on holiday till the 5th of May, so a bit of a delay to the recommended time scales, but fair enough, given we are in Bank Holiday/Wedding Insanity season

 

I am wondering if there will be a difference to the Info from Ynys Môn/Isle of Anglesey Council, as they famously have been taken over by Assembly "Commissioners" due to incompetent councillors and leaders. Might be worth tailoring a second request after the reply, based around when the Commissioners took over, to see if there has been anything like a "surge" in Liability Orders being granted