CCJ - defence due - please help!

[Chipmeister]

Hi folks, sorry for the delay in responding, work has been hell today. I will read, digest then comment further.

[wycombe]

CM - just popping in for a quick look. You seem to have got well on top of things and have generated a lot of expert attention to your thread. Fluffystuff's success today shows that it can be done - she has won the first part of her battle:-) - so there is hope for us all!!

[Chipmeister]

Hey Wycombe, how are you doing?

 

Just been reading Fluffystuff's thread - there are many parallels as CB observed. Always great to hear a CAGer succeeding!!

 

Having digested the various pieces of information I have been provided with, I am in the process of drafting a response to Optima - need to get a 31.15 out methinks.

 

I have spent a lot of time following links and reading info, but already I am more clued up than I was an hour ago and understanding each step and the reason I am taking it will make the ultimate destination (ie the court) much easier to get to and defend!

 

Draft letter will follow for advice and comments.

[Fluffystuff]

Hello Chipmeister and welcome to the fold!

 

I see you have been directed to my thread, I hope you will find it useful. It's always good to refer to another that has gone before you.

There were times when I allowed myself to be intimidated by a creditor's or solicitor's response but I have learned so much from my friends here.

I say read, read and read again all the information you can; like me, you'll be surprised at just what you are able to achieve.

 

Best wishes

 

F x

[Chipmeister]

Hi emandcole, thanks for your input. A copy of my drafted response to Optima is attached. I think my points and back up are ok but I can't afford to make a silly slip up at this stage so would be grateful if CAGers could review and comment before I send it, many thanks.

 

Typical Optima games. Keep that letter won't you, show it to the judge, think they'll be quite interested in that .

:grin:

 

As you've used CPR 31.14 I presume the claim has been started against you but has not yet been allocated to a track? This would make sense given what you've added above.

Yes, the claim has begun and I have filed an embarrassed defence at this stage.

 

You have every right to ask for copies of documents. Send them the 31.15 now (ask if you need it or can't find it) and if they fail to respond follow it up quickly with an application to the court for an order forcing them to respond.

How important is it for me to send the 31.15 request at this stage, as I am concerned that I may have to find £40 for an application to court. By the time the attached draft letter gets to Optima the 31.14 deadline of 16 July will have expired, but the CPR 18 isn't due until 23 July so can I deadline this as I have currently in my draft letter?

 

Include a copy of their snotty letter in support of your application so the judge can see what you're having to deal with, sure it will give the judge a great deal of pleasure approving your application :grin:.

Not impressed with that letter, but I can see from it that they are not impressed with me! :grin:

 

If they want to play games with the court use it to your advantage. With your application also submit a draft order that basically says unless the claimant provides the documentation needed the claim should be struck out and wasted costs awarded against the claimant.

Presumably this would happen only if they ignored the 31.15 request, or would it still happen if they further refused to comply with the 31.14 request?

 

That should wake Optima up a little.

 

Thanks again for all help and advice Here is the letter - originally I posted a password protected Word document which wouldn't have helped any of us!

 

Re: MBNA Europe Bank Limited v Chipmeister

Case Number:

CPR 31.14 & CPR 18 Requests

 

I refer to my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests sent to you on 8 July 2010 and your response dated 9 July 2010 which states that both my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests “are inappropriate at this time”.

 

These requests do not come later under disclosure, as stated in your letter. They are requests for information which may be made after proceedings have started, and can continue up until any court hearing. Therefore, as your client has issued legal proceedings against me I have every right to make these requests – indeed, should I so wish, I would be perfectly entitled to ask for physical inspection of the documents with 7 days, as I am sure you are aware. I am not, at this time, making this request.

 

In addition, the documents requested in my CPR 31.14 have already been disclosed by yourselves by virtue of your mentioning them in your Particulars of Claim. I am not asking for disclosure, I am requesting copies of documents that you have already disclosed and should therefore have to hand.

 

I understand that the limitations of issuing a claim out of the Bulk Processing Centre means that any substantiating documentation does not have to be served with the claim form, but as you sent your Particulars of Claim separately without copies of the documents requested in my CPR 31.14 request you are in breach of Part 16, Statements of Case, Rule 16.4.

 

I would also refer you to the Practice Direction relating to Pre-Action Conduct, from which it would appear that I did not receive a proper letter of claim from yourselves before legal action was commenced against me.

 

Finally, you advise in your letter that my request for documentation under s 77-79 is being dealt with. May I remind you that you are in default of my original request dated 15 June 2010, having not provided the information requested within the recognised time limit of 12 + 2 days, and that, in my letter of 30 June 2010, I had to refer you to your obligations under S175 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Only then did you advise that you had notified your client of my request, and told me that you would require a further 21 days in order to comply.

 

I respectfully request that you respond to both my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests within the next 10 days. After this time I will inform the court of your inactions and apply for the claim to be struck out.

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

Chipmeister

Do I need to send a copy of this letter to the Court?

Edited July 15, 2010 by Chipmeister
added info

[Chipmeister]

Hello Chipmeister and welcome to the fold!

 

I see you have been directed to my thread, I hope you will find it useful. It's always good to refer to another that has gone before you.

There were times when I allowed myself to be intimidated by a creditor's or solicitor's response but I have learned so much from my friends here.

I say read, read and read again all the information you can; like me, you'll be surprised at just what you are able to achieve.

 

Best wishes

 

F x

 

Hi there, thanks for coming to visit my thread! I certainly have found your thread useful, and hope I can be as brave as you when the time comes! I have learnt so much over the last few weeks, people here are friendly and kind and so helpful!

 

All the best,

CM

[Chipmeister]

bumped please

[wycombe]

Hi emandcole, thanks for your input. A copy of my drafted response to Optima is attached. I think my points and back up are ok but I can't afford to make a silly slip up at this stage so would be grateful if CAGers could review and comment before I send it, many thanks.

 

 

 

Thanks again for all help and advice Here is the letter - originally I posted a password protected Word document which wouldn't have helped any of us!

 

Re: MBNA Europe Bank Limited v Chipmeister

Case Number:

CPR 31.14 & CPR 18 Requests

 

I refer to my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests sent to you on 8 July 2010 and your response dated 9 July 2010 which states that both my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests “are inappropriate at this time”.

 

These requests do not come later under disclosure, as stated in your letter. They are requests for information which may be made after proceedings have started, and can continue up until any court hearing. Therefore, as your client has issued legal proceedings against me I have every right to make these requests – indeed, should I so wish, I am perfectly entitled to ask for physical inspection of the documents within 7 days, as I am sure you are aware. I am not, at this time, making this request.

 

In addition, the documents requested in my CPR 31.14 have already been disclosed by yourselves by virtue of your mentioning them in your Particulars of Claim. I am not asking for disclosure, I am requesting copies of documents that you have already disclosed and should therefore have to hand.

 

I understand that the limitations of issuing a claim out of the Bulk Processing Centre means that any substantiating documentation does not have to be served with the claim form, but as you sent your Particulars of Claim separately without copies of the documents requested in my CPR 31.14 request you are in breach of Part 16, Statements of Case, Rule 16.4.

 

I would also refer you to the Practice Direction relating to Pre-Action Conduct, from which it would appear that I did not receive a proper letter of claim from yourselves before legal action was commenced against me.

 

Finally, you advise in your letter that my request for documentation under s 77-79 is being dealt with. May I remind you that you are in default of my original request dated 15 June 2010, having not provided the information requested within the recognised time limit of 12 + 2 days, and that, in my letter of 30 June 2010, I had to refer you to your obligations under S175 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Only then did you advise that you had notified your client of my request, and told me that you would require a further 21 days in order to comply.

 

I respectfully request that you respond to both my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests within the next 10 days. After this time I will inform the court of your inactions and apply for the claim to be struck out.

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

Chipmeister

 

Do I need to send a copy of this letter to the Court?

 

Good morning CM - made a couple of minor alterations to your missive in red. As you have submitted your defence then do send a copy to the Court with a covering letter as it shows the Claimant is deliberately frustrating you. All extra ammunition that will show them in a very poor light in the eyes of even the most jaundiced judge. You are showing them as being totally unreasonable and obstructive.

[Chipmeister]

Morning Wycombe!

 

Thanks for the corrections - my head was spinning a bit by the time I'd finished putting all that together!

 

I wanted to put all my points across to Optima validly without coming across as stroppy or unreasonable. If I have acheived this (as well as quoting correct rules!) I will be happy.

 

I'm still not certain whether to proceed with the 31.15 though, as Optima have not technically refused to honour my requests, merely advised that they are inappropriate.

 

Glad you agree that I should copy the court in on the letter.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Chipmeister
extra info

[citizenB]

Wycombe beat me to it. Yes, always wise to send a copy for the attention of the court manager, with a covering letter advising what is going on.

 

Just one other thing...

 

I would also refer you to the Practice Direction relating to Pre-Action Conduct, from which it would appear that I did not receive a proper letter of claim from yourselves before legal action was commenced against me.

 

 

I think that should read, "Letter before Action"....

[Chipmeister]

Thanks CB, will amend to "letter before action".

 

After these amendments, do you think the letter is ok to be sent please?

[citizenB]

Thanks CB, will amend to "letter before action".

 

After these amendments, do you think the letter is ok to be sent please?

 

Sorry, yes the letter with amendments is good to go.. and should pop Optima back in their place

[Chipmeister]

Sorry, yes the letter with amendments is good to go.. and should pop Optima back in their place

 

Thanks CB! I'm sure that Optima will be delighted to see that I am also wasting the court's time with unnecessary documentation!

 

Letters will go out to Optima and Court today.

[Chipmeister]

One more quick question please - when cc'ing the court on my letter to Optima, should I enclose copies of all correspondence relating to my s77-79, CPR 31.14 and 18 requests, or simply a copy of the letter from Optima to which I am responding?

[angel_1]

hiya

 

just found your thread and subbing if i may please, and wishing you lots of luck and positive vibes,

 

laters angel x

[citizenB]

One more quick question please - when cc'ing the court on my letter to Optima, should I enclose copies of all correspondence relating to my s77-79, CPR 31.14 and 18 requests, or simply a copy of the letter from Optima to which I am responding?

 

Just their letter to which you are resonding and A covering letter along the following lines.

 

 

Court Manager

Court (am assuming this is still at Northampton) take address off claim form

Claim Number

MBNA v Chipmeister

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Please find enclosed a copy of a letter I have received from the solicitors acting for the above claimant and also my response.

 

Having sent requests for information not included with, but mentioned on the Claimants claim form. I have been advised by the acting solcitors that they are not obliged to send me this information until disclosure rules apply. That my requests are in fact inappropriate.

 

It is my belief that they are not only attempting to frustrate my ability to submit a fully particularised defence, but are misleading me.

 

It is my understanding that CPR requests are in place to enable the over riding principles to be observed.

 

Yours faithfully

 

etc

 

Does that help ??

[emandcole]

Hi Chipmeister,

The CPR's are there to ensure either side play ball using common ground if you like so the fact that its inconvenient for the claimant (for whatever reason) is of no concern to you. Simply because they return a letter advising that you are sending inappropriate requests does not make that true.

 

You've sent the 31.14 and to date the response you've had seems to indicate they have little intention of providing you with copies of vital documentation. As such I would not hesitate now to step it up a little and issue the 31.15. It seems clear they have no intention of respecting the 31.14 and waiting for more days to pass merely adds pressure on you, which is not acceptable.

 

Give them the time needed to respond, if you hear nothing (having confirmed via recorded delivery that they've received the letter) then go ahead and make the application to the court. Yes it will cost some money but will be cheap as there is no need for you to attend.

 

Importantly you may find it heads the claimant off and by attacking at this early stage they will quickly learn you are not going to be mucked about. Depending on the strength of their claim this could result in them re-considering their position, which they should do anyway if they only have the usual array of bumpf.

 

Your decision of course

[Chipmeister]

hiya

 

just found your thread and subbing if i may please, and wishing you lots of luck and positive vibes,

 

laters angel x

 

Hi Angel,

 

Hope the thread is of help to you, and thanks for the good wishes and vibes!

 

All the best,

CM

[Chipmeister]

Please see responses in red below!

 

Hi Chipmeister,

The CPR's are there to ensure either side play ball using common ground if you like so the fact that its inconvenient for the claimant (for whatever reason) is of no concern to you. Simply because they return a letter advising that you are sending inappropriate requests does not make that true.

Indeed.

 

You've sent the 31.14 and to date the response you've had seems to indicate they have little intention of providing you with copies of vital documentation. As such I would not hesitate now to step it up a little and issue the 31.15. It seems clear they have no intention of respecting the 31.14 and waiting for more days to pass merely adds pressure on you, which is not acceptable.

I would agree.

 

Give them the time needed to respond, if you hear nothing (having confirmed via recorded delivery that they've received the letter) then go ahead and make the application to the court. Yes it will cost some money but will be cheap as there is no need for you to attend.

Is it about £40? And please can you confirm what court form I would need to send?

 

Importantly you may find it heads the claimant off and by attacking at this early stage they will quickly learn you are not going to be mucked about. Depending on the strength of their claim this could result in them re-considering their position, which they should do anyway if they only have the usual array of bumpf.

Yes, I can see how this will assist in moving things forward.

 

Your decision of course

Maybe the 31.15 is indeed the way to go, I will put it in with my letter and send the whole jolly lot to Optima, with a cc to the court.

Is this draft 31.15 request ok please:

Dear Sir,

 

Rexxxxxxxxxxxxxx v xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Case No: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

CPR 31.15 Request

 

Further to the above case number, I have sought a copy of the original agreement that you mention in your POC . Despite my request under CPR 31.14, you have failed to supply this document, stating that it is not appropriate at this time.

In an attempt to resolve this issue, I now require sight of the original executed agreement, as I am allowed to do under CPR 31.15.

 

You will note that under this rule, you must allow me inspection or the original document within 7 days of the date of this letter.

 

I look forward to your urgent response.

 

Yours faithfully

 

c.c. Northampton county court Manager.

Obviously I will need to amend my covering letter to Optima, I will do this and post up for review a little later.

[Chipmeister]

Hi CB,

 

Thanks for your covering letter to the Court.

[Chipmeister]

Evening all,

 

I have tweaked my response to Optima. Any comments welcome before it heads off by good old recorded mail tomorrow!

 

CPR 31.15 Request

 

I refer to my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests sent to you on 8 July 2010 and your response dated 9 July 2010 which was received on 13 July 2010.

 

These requests do not come later under disclosure, as stated in your letter. They are requests for information which may be made after proceedings have started, and can continue up until any court hearing. Therefore, as your client has issued legal proceedings against me I have every right to make these requests to allow me to prepare a proper defence.

 

In addition, the documents requested in my CPR 31.14 have already been disclosed by yourselves by virtue of your mentioning them in your Particulars of Claim. I am not asking for disclosure, I am requesting copies of documents that you have already disclosed and should therefore have to hand.

 

I understand that the limitations of issuing a claim out of the Bulk Processing Centre means that any substantiating documentation does not have to be served with the claim form, but as you sent your Particulars of Claim separately without copies of the documents asked for in my CPR 31.14 request you are in breach of Part 16, Statements of Case, Rule 16.4.

 

I would also refer you to the Practice Direction relating to Pre-Action Conduct, from which it would appear that I did not receive a proper letter before action from yourselves prior to legal action being commenced against me.

 

You advise in your letter that my request for documentation under s 77-79 is being dealt with. May I remind you that you are in default of my original request dated 15 June 2010, having not provided the information requested within the recognised time limit of 12 + 2 days, and that, in my letter of 30 June 2010, I had to refer you to your obligations under S175 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Only then did you advise that you had notified your client of my request. Had my request been acted upon within the time limit, I would have had a basis to begin a proper defence, and yet, having already defaulted on the 12 + 2 days, you advised me that you would require a further 21 days to comply with my request, thus frustrating me further.

 

Despite my request under CPR 31.14, you have failed to supply the necessary documents within the required timescale because, quoting from your letter of 9 July 2010, “the requests are inappropriate at this time.”

 

It is therefore my right, under CPR 31.15, to advise you that I require sight of the original executed agreement. You will note that under this rule, as the party who disclosed the document you must permit inspection not more than 7 days after the date on which you received this notice.

 

If you do not comply with my reasonable request before this date I will inform the court of your actions and make an application for the claim to be struck out.

 

Yours faithfully

Chipmeister

 

 

Cc Northampton County Court Manager

Edited July 15, 2010 by Chipmeister

[Chipmeister]

Covering letter to Court enclosing the above letter to Optima:

 

Dear Sirs

Re: MBNA Europe Bank Limited v Chipmeister

Case Number:

Dear Sir or Madam

Please find enclosed a copy of a letter I have received from the solicitors acting for the above claimant, along with a copy of my response.

Having sent requests for information not included with, but mentioned on the Claimants’ claim form, I have been advised by the acting solicitors that they are not obliged to send me this information until disclosure rules apply and that my requests are inappropriate at this time.

It is my belief that the Claimants’ solicitors are not only attempting to frustrate my ability to submit a fully particularised defence, but are misleading me.

It is my understanding that CPR requests are in place to enable the overriding principles to be observed.

Yours faithfully,

Chipmeister

Is there anything else I need to do at this stage please?

[Chipmeister]

Made an edit to Optima letter earlier - hope it's ok?!

[Chipmeister]

bumped!

[emandcole]

Evening all,

 

I have tweaked my response to Optima. Any comments welcome before it heads off by good old recorded mail tomorrow!

 

CPR 31.15 Request

 

I refer to my CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests sent to you on 8 July 2010 and your response dated 9 July 2010 which was received on 13 July 2010.

 

These requests do not come later under disclosure, as stated in your letter. They are requests for information which may be made after proceedings have started, and can continue up until any court hearing. Therefore, as your client has issued legal proceedings against me I have every right to make these requests to allow me to prepare a proper defence.

 

In addition, the documents requested in my CPR 31.14 have already been disclosed by yourselves by virtue of your mentioning them in your Particulars of Claim. I am not asking for disclosure, I am requesting copies of documents that you have already disclosed and should therefore have to hand.

 

I understand that the limitations of issuing a claim out of the Bulk Processing Centre means that any substantiating documentation does not have to be served with the claim form, but as you sent your Particulars of Claim separately without copies of the documents asked for in my CPR 31.14 request you are in breach of Part 16, Statements of Case, Rule 16.4.

 

I would also refer you to the Practice Direction relating to Pre-Action Conduct, from which it would appear that I did not receive a proper letter before action from yourselves prior to legal action being commenced against me.

 

You advise in your letter that my request for documentation under s 77-79 is being dealt with. May I remind you that you are in default of my original request dated 15 June 2010, having not provided the information requested within the recognised time limit of 12 + 2 days, and that, in my letter of 30 June 2010, I had to refer you to your obligations under S175 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Only then did you advise that you had notified your client of my request. Had my request been acted upon within the time limit, I would have had a basis to begin a proper defence, and yet, having already defaulted on the 12 + 2 days, you advised me that you would require a further 21 days to comply with my request, thus frustrating me further.

 

Despite my request under CPR 31.14, you have failed to supply the necessary documents within the required timescale because, quoting from your letter of 9 July 2010, “the requests are inappropriate at this time.”

 

It is therefore my right, under CPR 31.15, to advise you that I require sight of the original executed agreement. You will note that under this rule, as the party who disclosed the document you must permit inspection not more than 7 days after the date on which you received this notice.

 

If you do not comply with my reasonable request before this date I will inform the court of your actions and make an application for the claim to be struck out.

 

Yours faithfully

Chipmeister

 

 

Cc Northampton County Court Manager

 

Hi,

Not wanting to be pedantic but ideally the 31.15 should be sent just as the 31.15 with no other info or issues amongst it. The 31.15 is clearly a very powerful tool and as such it should be given the space and seperation from other requests/issues etc.

 

If you can perhaps seperate the 31.15 from the rest of the letter that would be great. Certainly feel fre to send the two letters to the claimant in the same envelope but keep the 31.15 seperate from the other bits where you're detailing their failings etc.

 

As for the court letter yes, keep them advised as this will be useful in future and documents your efforts nicely. As for content it's short and sweet and as you're wisely enclosing a copy of the letter from wiseguys Optima I'd let that speak for itself. No need to complicate matters at this point.

 

Good job i think .