Is My Agreement Enforceable - CCA request to Santander

[Essex Don]

Hi Guys,

 

Sorry to butt in on this thread but I have sent a CCA request to santander regarding a burton store card.

 

I have recieved a letter and also a orginal copy of my agreement - I am a little confused as to whether or not this is enforceable.

 

From where I am sitting it seems they have me by the short and curlys, can anyone see any different and if I can challenge this on what basis?

 

any help would be greatly recieved.

 

Essex

[cerberusalert]

I've moved your post & created a new thread for you.

 

They are too small to read, can you upload them to tinypic or photobucket & then copy and paste the URLs back here?

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Can't read them.

[Essex Don]

I've moved your post & created a new thread for you.

 

They are too small to read, can you upload them to tinypic or photobucket & then copy and paste the

 

 

 

Can anyone shed any light for me?

 

Thanks in advance guys.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Essex Don

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Don't see a credit limit or amount anywhere.

 

Yes, I misread, my apologies - it's an 08 agreement. Just I thought I'd found you something that would make it uneforceable.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Cartaphilus

[Essex Don]

Don't see a credit limit or amount anywhere. Not sure if that matters, though.

 

The figure of £300 has been scrawled on the bottom of the agreement and I believe this is the credit limit on the card - to be fair as I have been sent a photocopy whats to stop them writing this on the orginal agreement in ink and then photocopy it to send on to me to make it look like this was discussed at point of signing in store?

 

Can anyone shed some light?

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Well, I did see £300 but also wondered if that was connected to the section right at the bottom eg someone making calculations - it's not clearly defined in anyway whether they attempt to imply it was done in store anyway so I don't know how they'd get away with that TBH if they tried to argue it was the credit limit; I took it to be random scribbling TBH without any reference to what it was. However, to answer your question directly on that: nothing. Thought I don't see any credit limit or reference to what the balance is in the cover letter, it mentions a statement of account? Did they send you one or just that agreement?

 

Then there's the matter of you having this copy so if they did try that, this is the copy they have issued you as your credit agreement and presented as thus from them. So if they did do that it would probably be very easy for anyone to tell, even if it went to court. Hope I am making sense. I don't think they've obligated your request properly as there is no way for you to tell - apart from that figure which could be related to anything - what your credit limit was at the time you opened the account. I might be wrong but I am trying to see what things are missing in order to put it into dispute and that they've not fulfilled your request fully.

 

What I am trying to say is - whilst flying about on other websites as well as this one - is there are no links anywhere on that document to say that's your credit limit as written ... The OFT guidelines on unfair means were in my mind earlier and not making things clear to a debtor.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Cartaphilus

[Essex Don]

Well, I did see £300 but also wondered if that was connected to the section right at the bottom eg someone making calculations - it's not clearly defined in anyway whether they attempt to imply it was done in store anyway so I don't know how they'd get away with that TBH if they tried to argue it was the credit limit; I took it to be random scribbling TBH without any reference to what it was. However, to answer your question directly on that: nothing. Thought I don't see any credit limit or reference to what the balance is in the cover letter, it mentions a statement of account? Did they send you one or just that agreement?

 

Then there's the matter of you having this copy so if they did try that, this is the copy they have issued you as your credit agreement and presented as thus from them. So if they did do that it would probably be very easy for anyone to tell, even if it went to court. Hope I am making sense. I don't think they've obligated your request properly as there is no way for you to tell - apart from that figure which could be related to anything - what your credit limit was at the time you opened the account. I might be wrong but I am trying to see what things are missing in order to put it into dispute and that they've not fulfilled your request fully.

 

What I am trying to say is - whilst flying about on other websites as well as this one - is there are no links anywhere on that document to say that's your credit limit as written ... The OFT guidelines on unfair means were in my mind earlier and not making things clear to a debtor.

 

Ok I think I understand what your saying - as far as your concerned the only thing missing that I can highlight to them and fight against is the credit limit right?

 

Is there a generic letter template that I can use to fire off to them to see if they will buckle?

 

I have tried looking for one on here myself but I am unable to find one - any help would be most welcome.

 

One last thing they have sent me another document which I will scan and copy now - I didnt think it was relevant until now but let me know what you think.

 

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Don't know which template letter ... apart from the dispute letter for non-compliance with a CCA request. Which if there is no reference to any credit limit on any documents they've sent you - by this I mean a clearly printed and not handwritten figure which would be dubious anyway without it saying somewhere next to it 'this is your credit limit' and ... least to me it would be questionable anyway without a link to anything else. (?) then how on Earth are you meant to see what you agreed to when you signed up for it? I hope there is something in all this for you and that I am not trying to look for something that isn't there. But to me that doesn't look right what they've sent.

[Essex Don]

I have now scanned the said "other" document - does this have any relevance?

 

 

cheers for the info

[Guest Cartaphilus]

More than likely it does as it's the Statement of Account. Sorry if I got your hopes up.

 

Because what I was hoping for was that that document was missing so you could have put the account into dispute or something like that anyway.

[Essex Don]

More than likely it does as it's the Statement of Account. Sorry if I got your hopes up.

 

I dont see how it can though as this third document is the first time I have seen it and I have never ever signed anything relating to it??

 

The credit agreement that doesnt have the credit limit on it but this document is just a print off from their system??

 

Is there anyone who knows the law and can shed a legal view on whether or not I can or it is worth me contesting this one??

 

Thanks in advance guys.

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

They have complied with Section 78 request. What you have to do is the DPA SAR and ask for all documentation and statements and any telephone records they hold regarding this account. This will cost you £10.00

 

para 5 does does state a credit limit for retail purchases of £1500.00 and 12 equal repayment instalments the interest on this being £223.74.

 

It then goes on in Clause 6 to explain how they will apply the repayments to the account.

 

IMHO this is enforceable on the face of it.

 

I am not sure what the £300.,00 refers to, This would be discovered from the SAR

[Guest Cartaphilus]

However, I had seen it before but just took a look at the regulations surrounding what a credit agreement should contain:

 

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations The Regulations apply to all regulated consumer credit agreements and consumer hire agreements, including modifying agreements.

In particular, the agreement must contain certain financial and other information. This must be set out in a specified order, with sub-headings, and shown together as a whole. The information must be of equal prominence, and easily legible.

In the case of credit agreements, the required information is:

 

• nature of the agreement
  
• parties to the agreement
  
• key financial information (including the amount of credit or the credit limit, the duration of the agreement, the APR, the total amount payable, and the amounts and timing of repayments)
  
• other financial information (including a description and cash price of goods or services, any advance payments, the total charge for credit, the rate of interest, how and when interest charges are calculated and applied, the order of allocation of payments, and variable rates and charges)
  
• key Information (including default or other charges, any security provided by the borrower, and prescribed statements of the protection and remedies available to the borrower), and
  
• a signature box, and other form of consent where applicable.
  

Both the borrower and the lender must sign the agreement. A copy of the executed agreement must be given to the borrower, either when he signs it or within seven days. A further copy of the unexecuted agreement may also need to be provided. If the agreement is cancellable (because it was signed off trade premises), notice of cancellation rights must be included in the copy agreement, and must also generally be sent by post or email to the borrower within seven days.

If the above requirements are not met, the lender can only enforce the agreement against the borrower by getting a court order. Local authority trading standards services or the OFT can take enforcement action against the lender, using powers in Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002.

The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) has issued guidance on the 2004 Regulations. Download the BERR guidance (pdf 64 kb).

 

Right, now I've confused everyone else let alone myself.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Cartaphilus

[Essex Don]

They have complied with Section 78 request. What you have to do is the DPA SAR and ask for all documentation and statements and any telephone records they hold regarding this account. This will cost you £10.00

 

para 5 does does state a credit limit for retail purchases of £1500.00 and 12 equal repayment instalments the interest on this being £223.74.

 

It then goes on in Clause 6 to explain how they will apply the repayments to the account.

 

IMHO this is enforceable on the face of it.

 

I am not sure what the £300.,00 refers to, This would be discovered from the SAR

 

 

Hi Mrs Hobbit,

 

Thanks for the info - the only problem is the credit limit has NEVER EVER been £1500.

 

Section 5 is referred to as an example payment if the credit limit was set at £1500 and the apr charged on 12 equal payments would be £223.74 ???

 

Does this affect the situation?

 

Also once I have done the Data Protection Act Subject access request and recieved it what is the next step or angle for me to argue?

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

It is set as required by regulations. The companies went to great pains to make sure all the new Agreements fully complied with the new Act.

[Essex Don]

However, I had seen it before but just took a look at the regulations surrounding what a credit agreement should contain:

 

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations The Regulations apply to all regulated consumer credit agreements and consumer hire agreements, including modifying agreements.

In particular, the agreement must contain certain financial and other information. This must be set out in a specified order, with sub-headings, and shown together as a whole. The information must be of equal prominence, and easily legible.

In the case of credit agreements, the required information is:

 

• nature of the agreement
  
• parties to the agreement
  
• key financial information (including the amount of credit or the credit limit, the duration of the agreement, the APR, the total amount payable, and the amounts and timing of repayments)
  
• other financial information (including a description and cash price of goods or services, any advance payments, the total charge for credit, the rate of interest, how and when interest charges are calculated and applied, the order of allocation of payments, and variable rates and charges)
  
• key Information (including default or other charges, any security provided by the borrower, and prescribed statements of the protection and remedies available to the borrower), and
  
• a signature box, and other form of consent where applicable.
  

Both the borrower and the lender must sign the agreement. A copy of the executed agreement must be given to the borrower, either when he signs it or within seven days. A further copy of the unexecuted agreement may also need to be provided. If the agreement is cancellable (because it was signed off trade premises), notice of cancellation rights must be included in the copy agreement, and must also generally be sent by post or email to the borrower within seven days.

If the above requirements are not met, the lender can only enforce the agreement against the borrower by getting a court order. Local authority trading standards services or the OFT can take enforcement action against the lender, using powers in Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002.

The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) has issued guidance on the 2004 Regulations. Download the BERR guidance (pdf 64 kb).

 

Right, now I've confused everyone else let alone myself.

 

 

AGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

I am so confused,

 

Can anyone with experience on this sort of thing help us make sense of this?

 

Appreciate your help so far cartaphilus

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

Section 5 is referred to as an example payment if the credit limit was set at £1500 and the apr charged on 12 equal payments would be £223.74 ???

 

Does this affect the situation?

 

.......................................................................

 

No. it doesn't change the situation as much i would love to tell you it does.

 

Did you get a letter telling what the credit limit was, this is known as the card carrier

 

The account number is clearly identified, you should remove this detail....

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Thanks for the info - the only problem is the credit limit has NEVER EVER been £1500.

 

I've also just realized as well that your account number can be seen on the very bottom of the agreement.

 

Going to watch Big Brother now before I get into more muddles thinking about this agreement and seeing if it could be made unenforceable.

[Essex Don]

Section 5 is referred to as an example payment if the credit limit was set at £1500 and the apr charged on 12 equal payments would be £223.74 ???

 

Does this affect the situation?

 

.......................................................................

 

No. it doesn't change the situation as much i would love to tell you it does.

 

Did you get a letter telling what the credit limit was, this is known as the card carrier

 

Nope never recieved any such letter - when should this have been sent to me? at point of signing or shortly after or any time after the agreement signing date?

[Essex Don]

That's what I was just thinking as it's not made totally clear that is the amount just that any purchases up to that amount. Though, wouldn't it be the case as with any credit limit the initial sum of credit be based on the person's financial situation at the time of application ie if for example the credit limit was set at £300 - for arguments sake just because it's a figure already mentioned and written on the bottom? Which may or may not be £1500 and could well have been set initially at £300?

 

I've also just realized as well that your account number can be seen on the very bottom of the agreement.

 

Going to watch Big Brother now before I get into more muddles thinking about this agreement and seeing if it could be made unenforceable.

 

 

The credit limit was set as £300 for this agreement and has always been this since day one - I know this from my first statement but nowhere on this agreement does it state that my "credit limit" is £300.

 

The only thing it does have is a inked amount of £300 scrawled at the bottom of the agreement which could be argued that was added after the time of signing?

 

I was also not given a copy of my agreement when I signed it???

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

How did you get your card for this account?

[Essex Don]

How did you get your card for this account?

 

This was an in store application - Also how do I edit the post to remove my account number?

[Guest Cartaphilus]

Just blot it out like you did with the rest of the form.

 

This was an in store application

 

Wondering if this, then, could be classed as a pre-application form if done in store? Just thinking of other ways here. Anyway, I will leave you to it ... Really felt it was onto something earlier but ... Good luck.

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

It looks like that £300.00 was the credit limit they told you about when you applied for the account and it was written on the form at the time. the problem here is, if it goes to Court, they will say under oath this normal practise and produce similar agreements to demonstrate this to the Judge. I am playing Devil's Advocate here as I have seen this happen. You could argue that it was added afterwards, but again the burden of proof would be on you regarding this.

 

On your statements each month it will also have the credit limit of the account.

 

I sound so full of gloom, but having seen so many of these Agreements in the past, the loopholes have been closed. I am surprised that you didn;t get a letter stating the credit limit after opening the account. this in itself is not enough to make the agreement uneforceable. We cut our teeth on the old agreements and at the inception of the new agreements, we went over them with a fine tooth comb and found they complied with the recommendations,.maybe not as fully we would have liked to see it happen but then again we old campaigners wanted the system tightened to make the companies comply with current legislation and amendments.

 

How to edit the post? hit the edit button on the relevant post and delete the document, then post up document again with the number covered. I hope I have explained this clearly.