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    • The property was our family home.  A fixed low rate btl/ development loan was given (last century!). It was derelict. Did it up/ was rented out for a while.  Then moved in/out over the years (mostly around school)  It was a mix of rental and family home. The ad-hoc rents covered the loan amply.  Nowadays  banks don't allow such a mix.  (I have written this before.) Problems started when the lease was extended and needed to re-mortgage to cover the expense.  Wanted another btl.  Got a tenant in situ. Was located elsewhere (work). A broker found a btl lender, they reneged.  Broker didn't find another btl loan.  The tenant was paying enough to cover the proposed annual btl mortgage in 4 months. The broker gave up trying to find another.  I ended up on a bridge and this disastrous path.  (I have raised previous issues about the broker) Not sure what you mean by 'split'.  The property was always leasehold with a separate freeholder  The freeholder eventually sold the fh to another entity by private agreement (the trust) but it's always been separate.  That's quite normal.  One can't merge titles - unless lease runs out/ is forfeited and new one is not created/ granted. The bridge lender had a special condition in loan offer - their own lawyer had to check title first.  Check that lease wasn't onerous and there was nothing that would affect good saleability.  The lawyer (that got sacked for dishonesty) signed off the loan on the basis the lease and title was good and clean.  The same law firm then tried to complain the lease clauses were onerous and the lease too short, even though the loan was to cover a 90y lease extension!! 
    • Northmonk forget what I said about your Notice to Hirer being the best I have seen . Though it  still may be  it is not good enough to comply with PoFA. Before looking at the NTH, we can look at the original Notice to Keeper. That is not compliant. First the period of parking as sated on their PCN is not actually the period of parking but a misstatement  since it is only the arrival and departure times of your vehicle. The parking period  is exactly that -ie the time youwere actually parked in a parking spot.  If you have to drive around to find a place to park the act of driving means that you couldn't have been parked at the same time. Likewise when you left the parking place and drove to the exit that could not be describes as parking either. So the first fail is  failing to specify the parking period. Section9 [2][a] In S9[2][f] the Act states  (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; Your PCN fails to mention the words in parentheses despite Section 9 [2]starting by saying "The notice must—..." As the Notice to Keeper fails to comply with the Act,  it follows that the Notice to Hirer cannot be pursued as they couldn't get the NTH compliant. Even if the the NTH was adjudged  as not  being affected by the non compliance of the NTK, the Notice to Hirer is itself not compliant with the Act. Once again the PCN fails to get the parking period correct. That alone is enough to have the claim dismissed as the PCN fails to comply with PoFA. Second S14 [5] states " (5)The notice to Hirer must— (a)inform the hirer that by virtue of this paragraph any unpaid parking charges (being parking charges specified in the notice to keeper) may be recovered from the hirer; ON their NTH , NPE claim "The driver of the above vehicle is liable ........" when the driver is not liable at all, only the hirer is liable. The driver and the hirer may be different people, but with a NTH, only the hirer is liable so to demand the driver pay the charge  fails to comply with PoFA and so the NPE claim must fail. I seem to remember that you have confirmed you received a copy of the original PCN sent to  the Hire company plus copies of the contract you have with the Hire company and the agreement that you are responsible for breaches of the Law etc. If not then you can add those fails too.
    • Weaknesses in some banks' security measures for online and mobile banking could leave customers more exposed to scammers, new data from Which? reveals.View the full article
    • I understand what you mean. But consider that part of the problem, and the frustration of those trying to help, is the way that questions are asked without context and without straight facts. A lot of effort was wasted discussing as a consumer issue before it was mentioned that the property was BTL. I don't think we have your history with this property. Were you the freehold owner prior to this split? Did you buy the leasehold of one half? From a family member? How was that funded (earlier loan?). How long ago was it split? Have either of the leasehold halves changed hands since? I'm wondering if the split and the leashold/freehold arrangements were set up in a way that was OK when everyone was everyone was connected. But a way that makes the leasehold virtually unsaleable to an unrelated party.
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Abbey SPO - want to set it aside


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  • 2 months later...
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update ....

 

it got passed to an adjudicator who said:

 

1. Mortgage arrears charges are NOT WITHIN THEIR REMIT TO INVESTIGATE, so he'll look at the overall treatment the bank handed out to me.

2. He considers arrears charges to be fair because they're set at a market rate.

3. The charges were considered fair by the test case last year (same principle).

4. He can't look at the mortgage being sold through the shadow banking system.

5. The bank treated me fairly because it's my fault i went into arrears.

6. He won't look at the legal fees or the solicitor's actions.

7. The FSA fines and report on GMAC/Kensington etc had no impact on my complaint as those companies were fined for mistreating customers and not for charging an arrears fee, and my bank (major high street bank) has not had any fines imposed or been investigated.

 

I didn't agree with his findings and asked him to explain:

 

1. How he can call the charges fair without having investigated their actual cost (with a breakdown), especially if he says they're outside his remit.

2. Where it says they can't look at arrears charges (he pointed me to the FSA Handbook).

3. When did the test case look at mortgage account T's and C's or investigate their fees.

4. The solicitor was instructed by the bank as an agent and thus the bank is responsible for their actions.

5. Why does the bank sign its letters with "as administrator". And for whom?

 

And that if the charges are outside their remit then he cannot refer to them in his decision, not a single point, since its not something he can look at and i don't want his personal opinion on these charges. That would make his decision a bit harder to write up since it all consists of arrears charges!

 

I didn't get any answers from him. He's now left the fos and it will be allocated to another adjudicator.

 

Any advice for me and others taking arrears charges to the FOS and faced with this sort of response?

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Oh for goodness sake.

 

My gut feel is to say just take them to court, but I've flagged this up for the site team for ideas and opinions.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Yep I spotted after I posted that this had provoked some discussion there. Must confess - I'm confused by FOS too.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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I'm confused by FOS too.

 

But what can i do about it?

 

Thankfully i didn't get a decision in writing though the adjudicator did call me many times to discuss his assessment. When i questioned everything he was saying he went back to look at it again and again, though he seemed to know what he was talking about by quoting various things. But thanks to this and other forums I'm not so naive on the matter as well!

 

His main statement was that the charges haven't been assessed and deemed unfair by a court so everything else doesn't apply, not the FSA, not UTCCRs, nothing.

 

Now i find out he's left so will have to wait for it to go to another adjudicator, who may or may not use the last one's assessment.

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Well if you get an assessment along the lines of what this guy has said, there are so many holes in it I would suggest an appeal, although there is still the option of court to claim charges.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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there is still the option of court to claim charges.

 

I've been advised not to do that as the bank may be able to claim their legal fees, even if they concede and refund all charges, because it says so in the agreement. Unfair as it seems and possibly a clause to be assessed under UTCCR.

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Well if you get an assessment along the lines of what this guy has said, there are so many holes in it I would suggest an appeal.

 

I'll have to wait and see. I waited many months for it to be allocated to an adjudicator and then assessed so may have to wait a while again, though of course its not my fault their adjudicator left.

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I've been advised not to do that as the bank may be able to claim their legal fees, even if they concede and refund all charges, because it says so in the agreement. Unfair as it seems and possibly a clause to be assessed under UTCCR.

 

There is a risk with any court action, although if it's under £5k it will probably in the small claims track when each side bears their own costs. If they want to concede and keep legal fees then just carry on to court and let the judge decide.

 

If it's over £5k there is certainly the risk of costs should you lose, but the supreme court judgment on bank charges, as you know, had nothing at all to do with mortgage charges. If you win you can claim your own costs back.

 

It may be worth checking out the CPUT regulations to see if there's anything in them that would help your case.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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It may be worth checking out the CPUT regulations to see if there's anything in them that would help your case.

 

Like many others, mine is just a normal case of a consumer wanting penalty charges refunded. Why is this successful for some and so hard for me?

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  • 2 months later...

had a decision again from a second adjudicator (first one left) but it's much the same as before, except that the bank 'seems' to have provided a breakdown which shows their costs as £35+ a go (i'd like to see it!) and the charges are therefore fair.

 

no comment on FSA 12.4.1R, the FSA fines on some mortgage lenders' unfair treatment of customers and that the UTCCR reg 5 and 6 cannot be used on a price basis and that i agreed to the T's and C's.

 

i don't understand why mortgage arrears charges are being seen like personal current account overdraft charges and not like credit card default charges with which they bear a resemblance (being charged for not making an agreed monthly payment).

 

i don't know what the FOS are doing but it doesn't seem right.

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should i now take this to the court or wait for an Ombudsman decision (which will probably not change much).

 

i can work out the charges from my statements but not the cumulative interest on each charge as there have been different interest rates over the years. The bank won't send me this info, not even through the FOS, and i am told to make a DSAR request with the bank. So i wouldn't know what amount to claim.

 

can anyone help me with a likely POC?

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Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums

 

 

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My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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Have you read this by Bankfodder?

 

Yes, i read that, but the FOS say none of it applies to my complaint.

 

2 FOS adjudicators have said:

 

the charges are fair because:

 

1. the bank has provided a breakdown

2. i agreed to the T's and C's

3. the bank applied them because of my conduct of the account (i missed payments)

4. reg 5 and 6 of the UTCCR do not apply as i can't challenge the charges on price

5. i cannot use s.140 of CCA (unfair relationship)

6. the FSA fines on other lenders are not relevant as they haven't fined my lender

7. the test case on personal account overdraft charges said all such charges are fair

8. they're set at a market rate

9. initially they said they do not investigate arrears mortgage charges

 

and much more, but the above are the main points.

 

so how are others getting their arrears charges back through the FOS?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't think there's any new advice or info I can think of.

 

Just a few questions though -

 

Who is the lender?

 

Is this a first or second mortgage?

 

When was it taken out?

 

Do you know if it's regulated?

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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it's Abbey/Santander ....

Is this why you think it's been securitised?

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Is this why you think it's been securitised?

 

No, not because of the bank name, but because I know. They sign all their letters with "as administrator". And I know they use the Holmes brand to securitise .....

 

But apart from that, I believe i'm still entitled to receive a refund of arrears fees UNLESS the bank's true costs are £35+ (and i don't believe they are).

 

And the litigation referral and monitoring fees which the bank and solicitor have BOTH been applying.

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Must admit I haven't got my head around the whole securitisation issue. I'll see if I can find someone with more knowledge of this to take a look.

 

Regarding the charges, just because FOS have turned you down doesn't mean that this isn't something that you can't claim via the court.

 

What's happening at the moment regarding possession proceedings?

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Must admit I haven't got my head around the whole securitisation issue. I'll see if I can find someone with more knowledge of this to take a look.

 

Regarding the charges, just because FOS have turned you down doesn't mean that this isn't something that you can't claim via the court.

 

What's happening at the moment regarding possession proceedings?

 

The securitisation issue's been well discussed and the general consensus is that it's legal in the UK and the bank do nothing wrong. It's been challenged in the 'Pender' case.

 

On charges, the FOS won't send me any info, not a list of charges or other fees, not the breakdown etc. They want me to do a DSAR request if i want any info.

 

I've asked the adjudicator to review his findings, especially on reg 5 and 6 of UTCCR. This is because i say that charges are not a subject matter of the contract or in return for any service by the bank but a penalty charge following a breach of contract (to pay the monthly mortgage payment) and that reg 6(2) does not exclude any assessment under reg 5 unless the contract is in PIL under reg 7(1) and/or the term was individually negotiated. Under reg 5(4) the bank would need to prove this. So he needs to assess the whole contract under PIL. This is how the test case of 2009 proceeded and why the banks changed their terms and conditions in 2008 for the PIL assessment.

 

But in the end the FOS might say the bank has provided a breakdown so the charges are fair.

 

Much of what else i asked to be looked at, such as the bank/solicitor making me pay arrears charges (whether fair or not) as part of the arrears balance and the litigation/monitoring fees, have not been looked at.

 

There's no proceedings at the moment as they're on hold while the complaint is at the FOS. When/if the bank issue these again, i would dispute the balance as being wrong because of arrears charges and litigation/monitoring fees and that the bank is to provide a breakdown, or to ask for the contract to be assessed under PIL and s.140A of CCA.

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Well I guess that's one benefit of the FOS taking their own sweet time.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Well I guess that's one benefit of the FOS taking their own sweet time.

 

As i see it, the bank owe me more in charges and fees than i owe them in arrears.

 

And they haven't charges any arrears charges or other fees while the case is at the FOS so if there's a true cost of £35+ per month (as they're saying), are they losing money by not charging me? Or are they being 'nice'?

 

They insist they're right and the FOS agrees with them so why haven't they continued charging until told otherwise?

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There were arguments that until the legality of bank charges was decided they shouldn't be added. It didn't carry much weight but maybe they're waiting for the final outcome of FOS. I have no idea what they have to do extra each month you're apparently in arrears though.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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