Fare evasion/Fraud? London buses*

[Old-CodJA]

I really cannot add anything different to the excellent advice given by Stigy on this one.

[SRPO]

You need to stand up against these corporate thieves, any reasonable person can see that it wasnt your fault that you used your brothers pass, anyone could have made that honest mistake.

I cant imagine any court in the land taking their side over a poor stressed student like yourself.

[Wriggler7]

Courts are very even handed, they will look at the matter before them, and make decisions based on the evidence that is presented.

 

Whilst it is true that when a railway/bus company/Tescos or whatever prosecutes, the Court will know that the prosecution is in part brought to protect a private concern, they will also know that the Court is looking at the behaviour of the person accused of an offence, and his means to pay fines, or his ability to carry out a community punishment.

 

When Tfl are prosecuting, they are defending a public service, the 'public purse'.

 

The Court legal advisor will help the 'defendant'.

 

If a 'first time' fare evader found himself in Court against a time served prosecutor, who has been in Court hundred of times, the Court will explain processes. However, the Court legal advisor is limited to only giving help as far as ensuring a fair hearing. He or she cannot advise the defendant to plead 'guilty' or 'not guilty'.

 

It is very unusual for Court duty solicitors to assist rail/bus fare 'dodgers'. (Generally, the legal aid scheme would not pay for that level of offence)

 

Most Courts will give greater latitude to a defendant who represents themselves that a 'professional prosecutor'. It is expected that Tfl or a rail operator will have their paperwork properly sorted, and it is recognised that the defendant is more likely to stumble in the presentation of his defence.

 

But do not think for one moment that the Court is going to do anything other than look at the case before them. They do not exist to defend the 'peasants' against the 'barons'. The international wealth of the Company bringing the prosecution is irrelevant in the determination of whether a student has or has not bunked a fare.

[Stigy]

I think sleepy has a point, this is after all a consumer site & any advice given should be sympathetic to the unfortunate victim.

I shall endeavour to keep that thought in mind when posting in future....

 

You need to stand up against these corporate thieves, any reasonable person can see that it wasnt your fault that you used your brothers pass, anyone could have made that honest mistake.

I cant imagine any court in the land taking their side over a poor stressed student like yourself.

'Nuff said?

[onebadday]

Hi Stigy and Old CodJA,thank u.....drafting the letter now and hope they pardon me for this ignorant mistake.I hope this one odd incidence does not ruin my future career and marriage and thus my life.....thank u all again..

[Wriggler7]

Only my opinion, but I think you need to get this matter in perspective. I rather doubt that many of us have lived a totally blameless life. I have a clean driving licence, now, there was atime it had 6 points on. It was a nuisance at the time, and I didn't enjoy paying the fines, but none of my friend deserted me, it wasn't the cause of matrimonial breakup, and no where near as painful as all of the other afflictions of getting older.

 

Deal with it, move on.

[onebadday]

`Hi Wriggler, I full appreciate what u said .Yes indeed my husband will not break the marriage due to this incidence as he knows that this is not me-I am not a fraud.However, I meant to say that he plan to move to US and I doubt that I would get the visa for US with a criminal record as I have read on the forums...I do not know what are the full implications of this prosecution but as far as I understand from the forums,this one idiotic mistake could cost a professional career and movements to other countries like US .Ahhh...I feel so sick of me now....anyways thank you for the motivation.

[Wriggler7]

Ok, so now you have calmed down a bit?

 

The letter from Tfl will show what the alleged offence is. It may have the 'Act & Section' shown.

 

If you post the Act & section on here, 'someone' will know if it is a recordable or non-recordable offence. The difference is that 'non-recordable' offences do not create a criminal record, and all of your fears about going to America will evaporate.

 

If it is 'recordable', I still doubt that it will damage your chances that much, it is 'fare dodging' not international war crimes! Many employers will smile at some youthful indiscretions, as long as they are disclosed. Failure to disclose is (for some employers) a whole different ball game.

 

Still probably worth contacting the prosecution team. Unless you are a serial offender, or were 'rude' to staff, they will probably want to close the matter by the easiest route available.

[Wriggler7]

As a 'PS', I cannot imagine wanting to go to the US, any country that thinks that hash browns and Hershey bars are food is strictly off limits to me!

 

That should stir some debate!

[Old-CodJA]

Not from me...I agree!!

[SRPO]

As a 'PS', I cannot imagine wanting to go to the US, any country that thinks that hash browns and Hershey bars are food is strictly off limits to me!

 

That should stir some debate!

 

Whats a PS? I have run through the abbreviations that spring to mind and none are food related

 

I love US food btw, except hershey which taste like vomit........

[Stigy]

Only my opinion, but I think you need to get this matter in perspective. I rather doubt that many of us have lived a totally blameless life. I have a clean driving licence, now, there was atime it had 6 points on. It was a nuisance at the time, and I didn't enjoy paying the fines, but none of my friend deserted me, it wasn't the cause of matrimonial breakup, and no where near as painful as all of the other afflictions of getting older.

 

Deal with it, move on.

Couldn't agree more...I had 11-points on my licence at one point and needed it for my job. I too was a bit of a nuisence, although never been arrested...strangely, lol. I very nearly didn't get a job because of a previous conviction. All said and done, these things rarely wreck lives, as some would lead you to believe!

[onebadday]

Day and night-TFL is the horror of my life these days.....I wanted to seek the opinion from people here that in case they do not consider my reply and decide to prosecute....what would happen then? How is it decided if the offense is recordable or non recordable?

 

Ok, so now you have calmed down a bit?

 

The letter from Tfl will show what the alleged offence is. It may have the 'Act & Section' shown.

 

If you post the Act & section on here, 'someone' will know if it is a recordable or non-recordable offence. The difference is that 'non-recordable' offences do not create a criminal record, and all of your fears about going to America will evaporate.

 

If it is 'recordable', I still doubt that it will damage your chances that much, it is 'fare dodging' not international war crimes! Many employers will smile at some youthful indiscretions, as long as they are disclosed. Failure to disclose is (for some employers) a whole different ball game.

 

Still probably worth contacting the prosecution team. Unless you are a serial offender, or were 'rude' to staff, they will probably want to close the matter by the easiest route available.

[Old-CodJA]

Day and night-TFL is the horror of my life these days.....I wanted to seek the opinion from people here that in case they do not consider my reply and decide to prosecute....what would happen then? How is it decided if the offense is recordable or non recordable?

 

I do think that you really are reading a little too much into this. Please stop worrying about things that are incredibly unlikely to happen.

 

Whilst they are considered to be a serious enough 'breach of rule' for the matter to be elligible to be heard by a Magistrates Court, these offences are not so important as to be life changing in ANY sense for 999 out of every 1000 convicted offenders.

 

If you have received a summons, and if you tell us exactly what the wording of the charge on the Summons is, then we could tell whether any conviction might be recordable, but really, please do stop panicking. The best advice that I think I can give you is to answer their letter to the best of your ability, wait for the response and then you will know exactly what you are dealing with.

[onebadday]

Hi Old Cod JA, thanks for the motivation.I have sent the letter to them on 17th .How soon can I expect to hear from them?

[Old-CodJA]

Within a week or two, maybe a little longer if they're busy

[onebadday]

Hi, I have received the summons now and since I received them late, i have to respond back max by day after tomm.Appreciate the quick help pls.The summon has given 3 options: plead guilty(do not appear in court), plead guilty in person and dont plead guilty.I had sent the apology letter earlier to TFL explaining my circumstances and did mention everything advised but of no use.Now what do u suggest me to do in response to the summon.

 

Also, want to know if this would be a black spot on my career and life now? they have mentioned the following acts and section : Section 5(3)(a) of regulation of railways act 1889 as amended by section 84(2) of transport act 1962 and section 18 of the British railways act 1970. please advice if this will bring a criminal record in my name??

 

appreciate all suggestions and advices pls....

 

 

 

 

 

I do think that you really are reading a little too much into this. Please stop worrying about things that are incredibly unlikely to happen.

 

Whilst they are considered to be a serious enough 'breach of rule' for the matter to be elligible to be heard by a Magistrates Court, these offences are not so important as to be life changing in ANY sense for 999 out of every 1000 convicted offenders.

 

If you have received a summons, and if you tell us exactly what the wording of the charge on the Summons is, then we could tell whether any conviction might be recordable, but really, please do stop panicking. The best advice that I think I can give you is to answer their letter to the best of your ability, wait for the response and then you will know exactly what you are dealing with.

[Wriggler7]

Firstly, the word 'advice' has a special meaning in court work. I will not give 'advice' unless I have full and unfettered access to the defendant and the evidence as presented. Quite happy to give some thoughts though.

 

Read carefully the summons and the evidence. Do the dates & places in the statement agree with the date in the summons?

 

Section 5,3 of the RRA 1889 offences are 'recordable'. They can end up in the 'criminal record'.

 

If you accept that you are guilty, then pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity will get you a 'discount' at court. Turning up on the day will normally get the greatest discount, and explaining why/how the offence occurred can be good.

[Wriggler7]

It is also a good idea to make yourself notes of what you intend to say. Those of us who spend a lot of time in Court can usually waffle quite well, most first time defendants tend to 'dry up', and, frankly, make themselves look stupid. You may think about obtaining a solicitor. The costs that a solicitor will charge you are generally more than the potential saving in Court. You will not normally get legal aid, or help from the 'duty solicitor'. If you feel the need for a solicitor, go and talk to one as soon as possible.

 

You can plead guilty by post, include a letter of 'mitigation'. (And the form MC100 that came with the summons)

 

If you feel that you are 'not guilty', and if you think that there are flaws in the evidence, then plead 'not guilty' by post. Include with the plea dates that you cannot attend Court, and the reason you cannot attend Court. (I have to go to work is not a good reason, I will be on holiday/in hospital having a brain transplant is)

[Wriggler7]

You can, of course, write a further letyter to Tfl prosecutions, explaining the severe effect that a conviction will have on your life, and offering to pay the full costs of the prosecution.

 

You need to make it easier for them to accept that solution that to refuse it. I suggest that you include a cheque with your letter to the value of the cost claim and the fares that are owed. They might then take the view that a bird in the Strand is worth two in Shepherds Bush, and stop the case. They might, or they might not. I think it might be worth a try.

[Old-CodJA]

Firstly, the word 'advice' has a special meaning in court work. I will not give 'advice' unless I have full and unfettered access to the defendant and the evidence as presented. Quite happy to give some thoughts though.

 

Only just spotted that and Wriggler7 is absolutely right of course

 

In reality, where I used the word 'advice' in suggesting we could comment, it should be read as 'opinion or thoughts based on the limited information your post provided'.

 

No-one on here could do anything else

[onebadday]

I have received the notice of fine and collection order which states the breakup of the total fine and mentions the way to pay it.Ofc, i am going to pay the fine ASAP.However, i wanted to check that the letter does not mention anything else. Would this still make a crime record for me and flash in my CRB check or disclosure check?? (((

[Old-CodJA]

No, if a case is settled administratively, that is without prosecution, there is no 'fine' and will be no record to put on PNC

 

If the notice of fine and collection order came from a Court it means the case was heard by the Magistrates / District Judge and a conviction has been recorded.

 

From the wording you have used, it looks to me as if you were summonsed, didn't attend and the case heard in absence so YES, there is a record of the conviction whether you pay the fine or not.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Old-CodJA
corrected typo

[onebadday]

OHH....this means that this is recorded on to Libra as well as PNC?

Edited November 25, 2010 by onebadday

[onebadday]

anyone please??