CCA Request & Cabot Help Need

[lifehapperns]

I have been under a debt management plan for the past 7 years, but last year i took ill and after reading alot about requesting cca on this site i have request the cca from cabot the debt collectors and they have replyed to me and there letter confirms that they do not have a copy nor do halifax who the loan was with.

 

1. can they still enforce the debt without the cca?

 

2. is it possible that they can enforce it as i have been paying them a small amount each month for the last two years via my debt management plan with the consumer credit council?

 

3. what should i do next (not pay them anything else or contact them again)

 

all help would be appreciated.

[cerberusalert]

1. can they still enforce the debt without the cca?

No.

2. is it possible that they can enforce it as i have been paying them a small amount each month for the last two years via my debt management plan with the consumer credit council?

No, any monies you have paid are seen in law as a gift from you to them. Morally the debt may still exist, legally it's unenforceable.

3. what should i do next (not pay them anything else or contact them again)

Send them this;

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards DO NOT SIGN

[hcs9jah]

I have also being dealing with these cowboys. I wish I'd known about this site a long time ago. My problem is broadly similar. I was also paying off multiple debts through CCCS. In theory the debt was paid off Dec 09. Then received letter stating still owed £139, then a month later another stating owed £1.3K. Decided to trawl internet and see if anyone else had a problem with this nefarious bunch of sharks. Guess what? I found you guys.

 

Right...to business. I filed for both CCA info & put in an SAR. Sent it recorded delivery which - bless them - Cabot acknowledged on the day it arrived.

 

The 12+2 days is up. Interestingly they're stalling. State they're having problems getting the paperwork from the original lenders. Could this mean they're just a DCA and haven't bought the debt? I've never had correspondence, to my recollection, from Associates (the original debt holders) covering any of the stuff mentioned in the letter.

 

OK my questions.

1. When I send the letter outlined above, what happens next?

2. Is their reply to the above letter bound by any time limits?

3. If the paperwork magically appears is the debt then enforeable?

 

on the SAR.

Cabot have said they would provide this information on an encrypted disc. Can I insist on hard copy of all documents?

 

I'm not trying to get out of any obligation to repay monies I owe that I have. All of the creditors - bar one - that I had were fair and kept me informed. Neither I nor the CCCS had contact with these people from one year to the next. The CCCS are OK, although I was made to feel like a pariah for having a nervous breakdown (not money related) and it was my fault I subsequently lost my job and ended up in debt.

 

Sorry, back to my point about the CCCS, I assumed that they were in contact with Cabot when administering the DMP. Apparently not. If I'd known that, I would have chased this a long time ago.

 

Any feedback over next steps and what to expect would be great.

[cerberusalert]

Could this mean they're just a DCA and haven't bought the debt?

DCAs never have the documentation, it doesn't matter whether they've bought the debt or are just 'acting' for a client.

on the Subject access request.

Cabot have said they would provide this information on an encrypted disc. Can I insist on hard copy of all documents?

Yes, but if it involves reams and reams of paper the cost may be prohibitive and they can charge you for it. Although the SAR should have been sent to the original creditor.

he CCCS are OK, although I was made to feel like a pariah

Although in theory they are a registered charity, in practice they are financed by the Finance Industry so tend to favour their side.

[hcs9jah]

Thanks for replying so quickly. Just to clarify.

 

What timescales do I now work to given that they've failed to supply the information I requested under CCA?

 

I'm in the middle of typing out your template letter to send them regarding the failure to supply the information. Are they out of time? Or do they have an unlimited time to find and supply the information? And hence then chase the debt? I'm not denying the debt. Just that I thought it was paid off. Every creditior bar three suspended interest payments throughout the repayment plan and of those three, two charged nominal interest rates over the last year only. I've no idea what the hell I've been paying the Associates/Cabot in terms of interest/penalties as until this year I've had no direct correspondence.

 

It looks like they've never had anything. I asked for a copy of the deed of assignment in the original CCA request. they haven't provided it as part of the CCA request. Surely they should have had that if nothing else?! Isn't that the bit of paper that gives them authority to collect the debt?

 

On the SAR. I sent Cabot it because I wanted to know what they held, on the; "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you" principle. I never thought about sending one to the Associates. Also it should give me an idea of what dealings they've had with the CCCS if any as I'd be a subject of the correspondence.

 

I also take your point about the CCCS. Every year there was an insistance that I should pay more even though in real terms my income had stayed the same or gone down and those creditors that wrote to me said they were happy with the payments - a view dismissed by CCCS as not of interest or immaterial. Also there was a lack of empathy at times with one 'counsellor' stating during a review - "well you got yourself into this mess", who then wondered why I went ballistic. But maybe that's just my experience alone.

 

Thanks for replying I appreciate the help.

Andy

[hcs9jah]

Apologies. In reference to above I just noticed the reference to 7 days in your letter. Is this seven working days or seven calendar days from receipt?

Thanks again,

Andy

[cups]

Hi

 

I had an Associates card and Cabot got hold of it some time ago, after about a year they sent me a letter saying that Associates and they had no details at all, no agreement or anything,,

 

I do not know if Associates still exist?

 

Good Luck

 

Cups

[cerberusalert]

What timescales do I now work to given that they've failed to supply the information I requested under CCA?

12 working days from receipt of your request. If they fail you can send the 'In Dispute' letter http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale and legally withold any further payments until they provide an enforceable agreement.

I just noticed the reference to 7 days in your letter. Is this seven working days or seven calendar days from receipt? I just noticed the reference to 7 days in your letter. Is this seven working days or seven calendar days from receipt?

7 Calender days.

[hcs9jah]

Hi Cups,

Yeah that's basically what they've said to me. They're "urgently requesting" the information from Associates is the tag line they used.

 

I'll keep this updated. I've posted the 'in dispute' letter 1st class recorded delivery toady. The clock is ticking! 7 days to go.

 

cerburusalert, thanks again. Presumably if they cannot provide the information that's it.

[cerberusalert]

It remains in dispute until they come up with the info.

[hcs9jah]

Sorry to belabour the point but if they don't or can't produce within seven days is that it. What then happens if a month down the line they find all the paperwork?

 

What criteria has to be satisfied for the debt to be statute barred? Would them not being able to provide an agreement given the timescales they've failed to meet above provide the basis for an argument that the debt is unenforceable and in effect statute barred?

 

I've read the FAQ's but at times find them a bit baffling.

[cerberusalert]

If they manage to produce an enforceable CCA then it starts again, however if no payment or written acknowledgement of the debt has been made by you for a clear period of six years (from your last payment) the debt becomes Statute Barred.

[lifehapperns]

No.No, any monies you have paid are seen in law as a gift from you to them. Morally the debt may still exist, legally it's unenforceable.Send them this;

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Account no

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated ........, the contents of which are noted

 

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On ......... I requested that ........... supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date ........... have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to .............., nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

 

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as ............... become compliant with my request. As ................ are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until ............. comply with my request from .date........... or such time as a court makes an enforcement order

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

 

Regards DO NOT SIGN

I have now sent in a cca, request following your letter. Got one letter from cabot saying they did not have a cca agreement. then i got another letter saying they was going to requested it from halifax.

 

Its coming up 30 days since i sent them the first letter what would you advise i do next? (30 days are up in two days)

 

CCCS have told me if i stop paying my dmp the the debt collectors could find another way to make me pay even if they don't have a cca? is this correct? what could they do.

 

help!!! Please !!!

[cerberusalert]

Its coming up 30 days since i sent them the first letter what would you advise i do next? (30 days are up in two days)

You don't have to do anything, the debt is in dispute.

CCCS have told me if i stop paying my dmp the the debt collectors could find another way to make me pay even if they don't have a cca? is this correct? what could they do.

Although the CCCS are a registered charity they are in fact funded by the finance industry so tend to side with them. As for their comment about DCAs finding another way to make you pay.... in the absence of an enforceable agreement they cannot take any legal enforcement so short of stealing from you there is no other method of making you pay.... so make sure you never give them credit or debit card details.

[hcs9jah]

Been off for a while. I got a letter back in response to my 7 day letter. They haven't received anything from Associates although they continue to ask them for details. Are they now outwith the CCA in as much as they have not been able to provide an agreement within the timescales given?

 

They also haven't responded to my request for statements of what's been paid and any interest added over the years and you'd have thought that they would have had at least this information as the CCCS had been paying them for 7 years!

 

Mind you they've 5 days to go on the subject access request under FOI so I'd be interested to see what turns up with that batch of information as it should include all that information.

 

I really wish I'd known about all this years ago, including the stuff about the CCCS, I'd have challenged a bit more vigourously than I did.

 

Thanks again cerberusalert, you're a star.

[lifehapperns]

Hi,

I need some more advice if possible

I have today received a letter from Direct Line which is the company that Allied International Credit took the debt over from.

The letter I received dated 25 May 2010 stated:

“We acknowledge receipt of your recent letter, addressed to Allied International, requesting your personal data held by the bank.

In order that we can deal with your request we require a signed consent from the individual named on the account. Unfortunately, you have not signed your letter.

Please sign and return this letter in the pre-paid envelope provided, to confirm your request for information.

When we receive this we will be happy to proceed with your request and any information required to be provided to you will be forwarded to you at the above address.

In addition, the bank changes a fee of £1.00 for this service. Please return a cheque for this amount made payable to the royal bank of Scotland group.

If you have any queries relating to this matter please do not hesitate to contact me at the address shown above.”

---------------------------------

What should I do now?

Do I have to reply?

Can they hold me to anything if I don’t reply?

I first sent my letter to ALC requesting the CCA with a £1.00 cheque enclosed on the: 21st April 2010

I then sent ALC a copy of the letter you provided on the: 11th May 2010 and they cashed the cheque I sent in for £1.00

And this is the first reply I have had but not from ALC but from the original lender Direct Line dated: 25 May 2010.

Help!

[cerberusalert]

Send them this; http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/572-debt-letter-when-company-refuse-cca-due-to-no-signature-

[lifehapperns]

I have received a letter saying direct line needed proof of my identity before they could process my request for the cca, all the items they requested all contained my signature so i replyed and with the letter in this tread then they said i could go into a selected bank to show my documents and the bank would copy them or i could telephone them to confirm my details. i again sent the letter in the tread and pointed out that a telephone conversation would not confirm my identity (and i was worried about them recording the conversation then changing it to suit them, but did not tell them this.)

 

Today i received a letter from them which states:

 

We have made you fully aware of our requirements and tried to contact you regarding this matter and have been unable to comply with your requests as you have failed to meet our obligations to ensure account and customer security.

In light of the above your agrrement will continue to be enforced and payments are required as contractually agreed.

What should i do now? I am struggling with a heart condition and im worried that they will start sending the balifs round, finding this all hard to deal with so any help or advise would be great.

[cerberusalert]

Don't worry they can't send bailiffs.

 

Write back & tell them you will collect the documents from an office close to you where you will prove your identity.

 

Make a complaint to Trading Standards via Consumer Direct; Consumer Direct - Contact us and the ico https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx as it is patently obvious that they are well aware that you are the correct person making a legal request for your documents

[lifehapperns]

Hi,

I wrote direct line a letter as suggested, and to my suprise i have received one back saying quote the letter" we are happy to offer a collection service from one of our sister branches. Our package of documents can be collected from either of the branchs listed below"

 

At first i thought they must have the cca agreement, but then i noticed that not once have they confirmed that they have the cca agreement and this package of documents could be anything.

 

I did ask them in my last letter to confirm they have the cca agreement but all they said was there package of documents!

 

I feel i should get them to confirm in some way that they do have and will supply me with the cca agreement before i make the visit to a local office, back not sure what to write, i did try for 3 hours last night but came to a blank so i thought if possible could you offer some guideance.

 

 

Please.

[cerberusalert]

Collect the 'package' first.

[lifehapperns]

After much time has passed Cabot have now come up with the CCA Agreement and i have agreed to a monthly payment to them.

 

I wanted to pay via cheque each month but they said it has to be via direct debit!

 

Is this true that the only way i can pay them is by direct debit each month, or can i insist on paying via cheque or standing order?

 

they are calling me back on the 25/11/2010 to get my bank details...

 

Help