Asset Recoveries UK hassling re mortgage shortfall from 2000- ** Statute barred ** :)

[gh2008]

for info http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/pdf/11_mortgage_shortfalls.pdf

 

From 11 February 2000 the CML says anyone

whose property was repossessed and sold and

who has not been contacted by their lender

within six years from the date of sale will not

be asked to pay the shortfall.

[gh2008]

Oh dear at least you have a real person writing real letters rather than a monkey operating the MKII Threat-O-Matic machine in the corner.

Well the bunch of monkeys may still apply

 

BTW there are *serious* issues with Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited s.a.r.l. as well have a search for threads.

It is a Luxembourg based (no UK offices) 'securitization vehicle'

 

They are registered with the ICO so you can SAR them - however the company only exists on paper so it would be interesting to see what you receive back - of course followed by a complaint to the ICO for non-compliance.

They also hold a uk credit licence so complaints to FSA & TS as well.

 

ARUK is just another DCA who happen to specialise in collecting 6+yr old mortgage shortfall debts

[gh2008]

They are also stating that because TMT contacted you, exchanged correspondence and then sold on the debt within the initial six year period then the CML voluntary statute didn't apply to TMT (The original creditor).

 

Except it was sold outside of the 6 yr period i.e. TMT 'gave up' and sold on the unenforceable debt to Phoenix. Except there's a little issue about the 'sale'

 

My Advice stands as per post #24, they need to prove the status of the debt, a letter stating that they now own it is insufficient, you need to see a complete paper trail, showing assignments and transfer documents at each stage, if even one document is missing then they own nothing and can enforce nothing.

 

As Ida suggested, I would initially be sending them a Subject Access Request and seeing exactly what they have got.

 

If you can spare the cash, I would SAR both Phoenix & TMT, if you read the other Phoenix threads you will know why.

 

ARUK are just a DCA they do not own the debt they are just chasing for it. ARUK cannot take action themselves, Phoenix have to - except of course that's where the problem lies ......

 

These people specialize in buying unenforceable debts at 5p/£ or so and then use the piece of paper that says they are owed £17k as security to borrow 'real' money.

[gh2008]

I will send ANOTHER subject access request to them.

 

Who have you sent a SAR to ?

Phoenix at their Luxembourg address?

Phoenix do not have any UK offices the various addresses they use are just DCAs and lowlife solicitors.

 

Here's the info

Data Protection Register - Entry Details

 

Registration Number: Z9853611

Date Registered: 12 April 2007 Registration Expires: 11 April 2010

 

Data Controller: PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LIMITED S.A.R.L.

 

Address:

11-13 BOULEVARD DE LA FOIRE

L-1528 LUXEMBOURG

Representative Name:

 

MR G KLAEDTKE

 

Representative Address:

 

PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LTD

11-13 BOULEVARD DE LA FOIRE

L-1528

LUXEMBOURG

This register entry describes, in very general terms, the personal data being processed by:

PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LIMITED S.A.R.L.

This register entry contains personal data held for 3 purpose(s)

Purpose 1

Staff Administration

Purpose Description:

Appointments or removals, pay, discipline, superannuation, work management or other personnel matters in relation to the staff of the data controller.

Data subjects are:

Staff including volunteers, agents, temporary and casual workers

Relatives, guardians and associates of the data subject

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Family, Lifestyle and Social Circumstances

Education and Training Details

Employment Details

Financial Details

Racial or Ethnic Origin

Religious or Other Beliefs Of A Similar Nature

Physical or Mental Health or Condition

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

Data subjects themselves

Relatives, guardians or other persons associated with the data subject

Current, past or prospective employers of the data subject

Education, training establishments and examining bodies

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Financial organisations and advisers

Central Government

Employment and recruitment agencies

Transfers:

Worldwide

Purpose 2

Debt Administration and Factoring

Purpose Description:

The tracing of consumer and commercial debtors and the collection on behalf of creditors. The purchasing of trade debts, including rentals and instalment credit payments, from business.

Data subjects are:

Customers and clients

Complainants, correspondents and enquirers

Relatives, guardians and associates of the data subject

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Financial Details

Goods or Services Provided

Physical or Mental Health or Condition

Offences (Including Alleged Offences)

Criminal Proceedings, Outcomes And Sentences.

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

Data subjects themselves

Relatives, guardians or other persons associated with the data subject

Current, past or prospective employers of the data subject

Business associates and other professional advisers

Other companies in the same group as the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Persons making an enquiry or complaint

Financial organisations and advisers

Credit reference agencies

Debt collection and tracing agencies

Traders in personal data

Central Government

Courts / Tribunals

Transfers:

Worldwide

Purpose 3

Accounts & Records

Purpose Description:

Keeping accounts related to any business or other activity carried on by the data controller, or deciding whether to accept any person as a customer or supplier, or keeping records of purchases, sales or other transactions for the purpose of ensuring that the requisite payments and deliveries are made or services provided by him or to him in respect of those transactions, or for the purpose of making financial or management forecasts to assist him in the conduct of any such business or activity

Data subjects are:

Customers and clients

Suppliers

Complainants, correspondents and enquirers

Data classes are:

Personal Details

Financial Details

Goods or Services Provided

Sources (S) and Disclosures (D)(1984 Act). Recipients (1998 Act):

Business associates and other professional advisers

Employees and agents of the data controller

Other companies in the same group as the data controller

Suppliers, providers of goods or services

Financial organisations and advisers

Credit reference agencies

Debt collection and tracing agencies

Central Government

Transfers:

None outside the European Economic Area

Copyright in this copy is owned by the Information Commissioner. Data Controllers may take copies of their own register entries. Apart from that no part of it may be copied unless allowed under the Copyright Designs and Patent Act 1988.

 

Sorry for the big post

[gh2008]

Hi P1

 

I think I have to disagree on the client/debt owner point.

 

ARUK is acting 'on behalf of' Phoenix who will 'own' the debt - although the extent of that ownership will also be in question. The 'Deed of Assignment' will also be interesting (although I doubt anyone will get to see it)

[gh2008]

County Court Summons - Mortgage Shortfall - Advice Needed Urgently, Please Help !!!

 

Link is not working.... not sure why!! Grrrrr!!!!

 

it's the silly new CAG autolinker it should ignore the words inside links but it doesn't so breaks anything with words like County Court, AQ or SAR and stuff like that

 

see if this works http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/121046-county-court-summons-mortgage.html

[gh2008]

Phoenix bought the debt and Aruk are the clowns they have chasing, yes.... but the original creditor will have no interest in it after an Absolute Assignment. That's the point I was trying to make....

 

The original credior is not the "client" because it's been sold. Also, the liklihood is, that Aruk are part of the same outfit anyway, which tends to be the case.

 

 

I'm trying not to confuse things here BUT it would seem that because of the way Phoenix operates the assignments are only ever equitable - sort of changes things

 

No-one on CAG has, as yet, had a single piece of paper from Phoenix ......

Claims are issued through solicitors like Bryan Carter so I think that says a lot about the way they litigate.

 

I realise that this aspect of it is *very* confusing to the OP

BUT it is soooo important - the SAR *must* go to Luxembourg that is the data controller as registered.

[gh2008]

For info

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/242653-have-you-lost-phoenix.html

 

I'll shut up now

 

All I am trying to say is that before you get involved with amounts owing and how it got the that. IMO you need to confirm who, if anyone, actually legally owns the debt now.

[gh2008]

Will I use the address gh has posted on here or will I send another letter to aruk asking for phoenix address.

 

The address I gave for them in my previous post was from the Information Commissioners Office

 

If you ask ARUK they will say send it to them as they are acting as 'agents'

 

you choose who to believe ......

 

--------

 

Background info for those who may be interested lol

 

I believe the assignments are only equitable as Phoenix, as a 'securitization vehicle' are not allowed to 'take risks' themselves, therefore every debt they 'securitize' as they don't actually buy them, they lend money to the original creditor who uses the debt as security for the loan. (like if you used shares as security at the bank for a loan - the bank has a 'charge over them but the absolute ownership doesn't pass to them)

 

When the securities (the piece of paper saying there is a debt to be repaid) are eventually proven to be 'worthless' Phoenix can chargeback to the OC. (again in the same way, if your bank - who lent you money aginst the shares - then finds out the shares are worthless they would call in the loan)

 

Ok, so they're only lending 5 or 10p per £ BUT when there are a million debts of £1k each ........

[gh2008]

Well done

 

Being active is part of empowering yourself - don't just sit back and wait for them - take the fight to their door and rattle a few cages

[gh2008]

I've got a fax no for them ...

 

I would contact the ICO *today* - that is the registered address of the data controller, not just any old address .....

 

I'm sure the ICO would be interested.

 

I am guessing that the letter would have been refused rather than 'no one in'

 

IMHO it is *very* powerful evidence that 'to a layman' they do not exist and therefore cannot legally 'own' the debt ......

 

I'll dig out the fax number - it's actually for the holding company, same directors, same address etc etc

Phoenix is a 'paper exercise' and in many ways doesn't really exist other than on paper.

 

I would actually be *very* surprised if it is actually allowed to enter litigation under its own name .....

[gh2008]

B*gger!!

 

Keep hold of that info though.... print it off for your own records.

 

Looks like we're gonna need a different address.... there must be one on one of the other threads. Hopefully someone will point us in the right direction later on today. If not, I'll have to do some digging around...

 

IMHO part of the exercise was to prove that 'something dodgy is going on' and so far that has been proved.

 

So we have a UK DCA coming up with an alleged debt which they don't own, but they say it's owned by an offshore company who you have never heard of and may not even exist.

You search for info on a Government site and make a statutory request for confirmation that this alleged debt does exist and they own it.

They refuse errrrr doesn't that set off alarm bells

 

So you are left with a DCA that says they are acting on behalf of this foreign co but what does that mean.

 

If I wrote to you and said I was collecting on behalf of someone you've never heard of and who won't talk to you - but you can trust me so pay up ..... Oh and if you want to write to the foreign co - just send the letters to me and I'll answer them

 

I don't think so

 

 

again IMO this is only good news for you.

Especially if the ICO will get involved - pretty powerful evidence

 

When the DCA writes again just tell them that you have tried to serve a statutory notice on Phoenix at the address registered with the ICO, and that you are now making a formal complaint to the ICO

[gh2008]

gh, can i just check i sent it to the right address, the address you posted in my thread was different to the one spamheed said to send it to. and i sent it to the one spamheed said.

 

The info I gave was the info cut & pasted direct from the ICO

 

The other address is (I think) one of the Director's home addresses from my research.

[gh2008]

The consensus seems to be that they are a shell company operated by all of the UK banks and larger financial organisations, that's why they pop up all the time for a host of different account types.

 

They are an offshore SV (Securitisation Vehicle) ultimately owned by the multi £billion Cargill in the UK

 

There is a very tangled web but it's actually all legit -

except that

the assignments may be equitable only

and Phoenix (by 'design') cannot litigate in its own name

[gh2008]

Contact details for CarVal Investors (owned by Cargill)

CarVal own Phoenix

CarVal Investors, Luxembourg

11-13, Boulevard de la Foire

5th Floor

L-1528 Luxembourg

Tel: +352 269757 1

Fax: +352 269757 97

 

seem familiar .......

[gh2008]

GH that is address Information Commisioners Office gave me

 

I know, I gave it to you in post #53

 

Their UK address (which they're not allowed to give out) is

 

Knowle Hill Park, Fairmile Lane

Cobham, Surrey KT11 2PD

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 0 1932 861258

Fax: +44 0 1932 861558

 

This used to be the Data Controller's address registered, but they wanted to 'distance themselves' from the 'sharp end'.

 

Still, a formal complaint to ARUK and the ICO (as no matter what they say you have already made a statutory request - the ICO should investigate their non-compliance)

 

If only a few others would try the same ...........

[gh2008]

The WebCHeck service is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

 

 

Name & Registered Office:

PHOENIX RECOVERIES (UK) LIMITED

26 WILMOT STREET

LONDON

E2 0BS

Company No. 06756754

 

Just for info, that is not the same company, it is a company that, it would seem, has been set up quite recently by a colleague of one of the Directors of Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited S.a.r.L. make your own conclusions as to why, but some have said it is to mislead.

 

Phoenix Sarl has a UK credit license and is registered with the ICO

 

Phoenix (without the Sarl - which is a Lux version of Ltd) does not have a license and is not registered with the ICO

[gh2008]

Phoenix (without the Sarl) seems to be non-trading director Sean Alimov Co Sec Gala Alimova

 

Phoenix Sarl is part of a multi $billion business empire - Cargill Group

which owns CarVal Investors

which owns CVI CVG Luxembourg S.a.r.l.

which owns Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited S.a.r.L

 

DonkeyB has done a lot of investigating into them aswell over on Humbleman's thread

[gh2008]

so angrycat, what would you suggest i do as i am so confused.

 

IMHO you are doing the right thing.

 

You have complained to the ICO (I would also make a formal written complaint)

 

I would also follow P1's advice and make a formal written complaint to ARUK

 

There is a lot of info in this thread and it probably needs re-reading to try and get your head round things.

 

I would certainly be asking who owns this alleged debt and not budging an inch until you have all the proof in writing in front of you.

 

You can also complain to the FSA and TS about Phoenix - they have a UK consumer credit licence (which can be revoked) they must abide by the rules ......

[gh2008]

Good letter P1

 

Would hope it should provoke some reaction from them .....

[gh2008]

and I know it's a hassle but please follow up your complaint to teh ICO about the SAR to Phoenix.

 

Also did you SAR ARUK? - If you did and they did not send all teh info then they are registered with teh ICO as a Data Controller as well and should have complied fully - so complain about them as well.

 

Doesn't cost much to complain but it can bring you powerful allies .....

[gh2008]

The address for CarVal in Luxembourg is:

 

CarVal Investors, Luxembourg

11-13, Boulevard de la Foire

5th Floor

L-1528 Luxembourg

Tel: +352 269757 1

Fax: +352 269757 97

 

The same address as Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited sarl.

 

You won't get much out of ARUK, they are just acting as the collector.

 

Yep ac I think you've got it

 

Yes it's been securitized and all the company links are in previous posts on here.

 

The link that you're missing is CVI CVG Luxembourg S.a.r.l. who are wholly owned by CarVal and themselves wholly own Phoenix and about 100 other Lux based SVs (Securitization Vehicles)

 

It's big business - $billion big

 

For consumer debts it would seem they've got separate companies for each country - all with localised names.

 

The interesting bit is who chooses which accounts to chase and why - and they seem to use all the lowlifes in the UK to chase them ARUK & Bryan Carter et al.

 

The other interesting bit is what happens when an account goes to court and they lose - cos if it goes back to the OC then IMHO the original Assignment was not absolute.

 

Interesting times ......

[gh2008]

As far as Phoenix are concerned, send your SAR to their registered London address.

 

Phoenix Recoveries (UK) ltd - the London Company - are NOTHING (legally) to do with Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited S.a.r.L.

 

Phoenix (London) are NOT registered with the ICO and do NOT hold a credit licence.

Phoenix (Lux) are/have both

 

I-W - you have done the right thing sending the SAR to the address registered with the ICO as the address of the Data Controller for the Company

[gh2008]

@ i-w - Perfect - you've done the right thing - taken the important points of advice out of the thread.

 

Totally agree with the approach of P1 - 1 step at a time - get the people chasing you off your back - get more info from them in writing and then go from there

 

Breath ........... and relax .............

 

[gh2008]

so p1, is it not looking good

 

I don't see what's changed :?

 

you have got a letter from a 'random company' purporting to represent a 'random foreign company' trying without any evidence to get money out of you.

 

As soon as ARUK's 40 days are up get your complaint in - as soon as the Phoenix letter comes back - again complain.

 

From what I have read this evening the statute barred timer starts from when you default on your payments - that has been accepted (and there is precedent for it) as being 2 months payments missed.

 

I will dig out the reference and the cases - should have bookmarked it when I read it