Grounds to appeal/fight a penalty fare?

[jcreek27]

So today I was travelling into london to meet someone, I live in and travel from a station in zone 6(south east/southeastern). When I was arriving at the station(a few minutes before my train was due) I saw that(a rare occurence) my train was already on the tracks and I thought I was running late and so I ran to get on the train without purchasing a ticket, with intention to buy one at the other end. It was the 1608 to Cannon Street, and I needed to get to Camden, so I planned to get off at London Bridge, buy my ticket, then continue on my journey.

 

I got off at London Bridge and asked a gentleman where I would get a ticket, tried following his directions and ended up at another lady who I asked who told me where to go(I'd walked too far and down the wrong bit), and off her directions I found a booth that has a sign which says 'Customers with fares to pay'. So, I proceeded to approach the booth when a man(not in the booth) came and asked me what I was after and I said I needed a Young Person's Travelcard(1-6, £5), he then asked why I didn't have one and I explained the train situation. He then told me that I would have to pay a penalty fare.

 

I explained my problem and my situation that I needed to meet someone, and being as it's a travelcard and I was there attempting to buy my ticket, why would I have to pay a fare, considering the booth is labelled as a booth for customers with fares to pay. He said that I should have not got my train and been late instead, in order to have purchased a ticket before boarding. Given I was getting a 1-6 travelcard I didn't understand what difference it would make, buying it before or after and I didn't understand why I would have to pay a penalty fare given that. I literally got the same ticket just yesterday, same price and everything(I got a travelcard as it is the same price as a return to london terminals), I even offered to show him the ticket I had from yesterday but he was having none of it. Apparently, according to him, the reason he has to issue me a penalty fare is because I 'could have come from anywhere', I 'could have come from Hastings' and I explained I hadn't, how would I have got there, or from there to where I was etc, but he said he didn't know and I could have popped up there for a few hours or something, I found this frankly quite ludicrous, and rather out of order that whilst I was queuing to PAY for my ticket at a booth labelled Customers with fares to PAY, that I was then giving a penalty fine...for attempting to pay my fare!!

 

He asked if I could pay the fine in full(£20) I explained I couldn't as I only had £10 and no money in my account, so he said he'd have to take a single fare(£5) which left me, luckily, with the £5 I needed for my actual ticket.

 

Is this right? Can they do this? I thought I was running a few minutes for my train and so I got it with full intention to purchase my ticket at the other end rather than miss it as I had to meet someone and didn't wish to be late. Why is it that they can apparently do this, but whenever I am waiting for a train that might be a 5, 10, or even 15 minutes late I can't demand £20 right there and then off of them? Can I ask for use of CCTV at the station at which I boarded to prove where I got on the train? How legally am I bound to their regulations, given I haven't read/agreed to anything? Who actually makes the decisions regarding this as well, is it the train line(Southeastern in the case?), National Rail, TfL, who? Basically, do I have any grounds for this, and what would happen if I don't pay the remainder of my fine in time? I'm really outraged by this, and I'd even consider fighting it as far as I can, but I'm looking to get aware of the possibilities first. Make it more annoying, I don't even know where Hastings is, especially in relation to the trains!

[Old-CodJA]

Firstly, it is up to you to leave adequate time to purchase a ticket before boarding any train where facilities to buy one are available to you. We all know that sometimes things don't go to plan, but if you arrived late then you should have bought a ticket and caught the next train.

 

The advisory signs are prominently displayed at stations where Penalty Fares are applied and the rules on this are very clear.

 

Secondly, you have mentioned that you asked for a Young person Railcard discounted ticket. As a Railcard Holder, you will have filled in an application form for the Railcard and signed to say that you accept and understand the conditions of issue. That is, unless you have one issued by a Bank or educational facility because you qualify by virtue of age, but even then you will have had a copy of the Conditions of Issue & Use of Railcards sent to you with the card and these are applicable whether you have signed for them or not. Ignorance of a rule is not a defence.

 

If the facility to buy a ticket was available to you at your starting station you have no right to board a train without paying unless, because of specific circumstances at that time, you are advised to do so by an authorised person at the station.

 

You might have been treated sympathetically if you had sought out the staff on the train to London Bridge and offered to pay your fare, but even then, staff are not obliged to allow any discount. For example; the 16.08 from Orpington has a running time of 17 minutes to London Bridge so adequate time to try to pay and although you don't say where you travelled from, this is pretty well the same for all Zone 6 stations because in fact, many of the journey times are much longer.

 

The Railcard rules make clear that if you board a train without paying the discounted fare first, you cannot use your railcard and will be treated as if no railcard is held. The Penalty Fare was correctly issued.

 

However, you have in fact been very fortunate, because if you had been issued a Penalty Fare without paying anything toward the £20 due and you then failed to successfully dispute or pay the Penalty, you could be prosecuted in a Magistrates Court for either the breach of a strict liability Byelaw offence or, an allegation of intent to avoid a fare.

 

By taking the full single fare of £5 from you, the person issuing the Penalty Notice has prevented the Rail Company from being able to take action in a Magistrates Court because the matter of the unpaid Penalty Charge alone is a civil matter.

 

You can still dispute the remainder of the Penalty, but win or lose, you need to remember the fact that you have had a warning, which will be on record with the Rail Company. This means that in future you need to remember to get to the station early enough to get a ticket before boarding the train or, just accept that you will have to be late wherever you are going.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[jcreek27]

Thanks for the reply. The station I travelled from is Barnehurst, and it takes about 35/40 min to london bridge, and if I could I would have purchased a ticket on the train but I know there is not any staff available from which to do so, as I've travelled on the train many a time before. However, it seems I'm quite at fault here, so I'll still try and write a letter of appeal, but if it fails I'll just take the penalty I guess.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for the reply. The station I travelled from is Barnehurst, and it takes about 35/40 min to london bridge, and if I could I would have purchased a ticket on the train but I know there is not any staff available from which to do so, as I've travelled on the train many a time before. However, it seems I'm quite at fault here, so I'll still try and write a letter of appeal, but if it fails I'll just take the penalty I guess.

 

Yes, Barnehurst has a booking office open Monday-Friday 06:10-19:30 and until 14.30 at weekends. There are also self service ticket machines. The trains are mainly driver only operated and ticket inspectors get on and off making spot-checks on the route.

 

You can also now use an Oyster Pay-as-you-go card from there too, but you must touch-in your Oyster or, get a ticket before travelling to avoid a penalty or further action.

[timbo58]

Just as a matter of interest for readers:

 

All Passengers 'agree' by 'implied contract' to all the train companys terms/conditions & byelaws by walking onto a station with the intent to travel or use the facilities at the station, or by boarding a train to travel.

This is regardless of whether you have ever seen a copy of those laws/conditions.

 

In contrast, you are subject to express contract should you buy a ticket or have a railcard as you will probably see if you turn the card/ticket over and see the writing on the reverse.

 

Both contracts are legally binding and easily proven in court.

 

Its like the small print of any contract: ignorance of it will never be any use for defence.

[Southern Guard]

Did you by anychance stumble upon that little ticket booth at the end of platforms 9&10?

[lau10]

Hi

 

I also want some information on this. Back in febuary i went to a friends for the first time. As it got late i realised i needed to get home and as i live in essex it was gonna take me a while to do so. I ran to surbiton station just as a train was entering the station. The ticket barriers were open and the ticket office was closed so i jumped on the train and travelled to london waterloo.

 

When i got to waterloo i did not attempt to try and get out of the station instead i just walked up to the ticket barrier guy and told him i needed to buy a ticket. He said ok and took me to one side. He was just about to let me pay the £5 fair when another ticket officer came over and pulled the other guy to one side.

 

When the ticket officer i was dealing with came back he told me that was his boss and although he was going to let me just pay the £5 fare his boss had told him to issue with me with a penalty fare. I wasnt happy about it but as i work on another rail network i know it was my decision to get on the train....

 

I paid the penalty fare and continued my journey home, thinking that was the end of it.

 

This week however i recieved a court summons from south west trains telling me that i was being taken to court over the £5 fare i didnt pay. Now i was under the impression that if i'd paid the penalty fare then they could not take any further action against me. If thats not the case why was i not offered the chance to pay the £5 fare along with my penalty fare? I had the money on me and it was never my intention to avoid paying the fare in the 1st place.

 

Can anyone help me or give me some advice as to what i can do? Because i only have 7 days to decide whether i want to plead guilty or not and if i dont then i will probably need to get a lawyer which i cannot afford. However i cannot afford the £130 court costs either.....

 

I feel like south west trains have royally screwed me over.... At no time was i told that if i didnt pay the £5 fare i could be taken to court so surely thisd has to help me?????

[Grotesque]

Clarification: How much did you actually pay the Inspector?

 

From what you say it sounds like you paid something?

 

"I paid the penalty fare and continued my journey home, thinking that was the end of it."

 

If you paid the single fare, you would be extremely likely to avoid prosecution for the balance (in my experience only); if you paid in full then the ticket irregularity was dealt with.

 

If you paid nothing towards the fare then or subsequently then that leaves you liable to a charge of traveling without a valid ticket or intent to purchase one (as, at this point, you still would not have paid for that particular journey.

 

So what happened?

[Old-CodJA]

Did you keep the paid Penalty Fare Notice, which is your receipt for the payment?

[lau10]

Did you keep the paid Penalty Fare Notice, which is your receipt for the payment?

 

I paid the full penalty fare of £20 but no I don't think I have the reciept. If I knew I had to pay the £5 fare as well as the £20 penalty then I wouldve because I had the money on me. But at no time did the ticket inspector tell me to pay the £5 too.

[Old-CodJA]

The reason that I ask the question is that IF the penalty notice receipt given covers the whole journey made, there is very little chance of any successful prosecution.

 

For example, if you were travelling from A to C and were charged a Penalty Fare for having no ticket from A to B, the fare is still due from B to C and could be pursued, but if you paid a penalty notice that was made out for the failure to hold a ticket between A & C, then there is no fare due.

.

[lau10]

So if I cannot find the reciept what shall I do? I only have 7 days to decide whether to plead guilty or innocent! Should I try ringing south west trains to see if they have a copy of the penalty fare I was issued?

[Old-CodJA]

You could try that, but if they are not relying on this being a prosecution for travelling without a ticket following on from non payment of a penalty fare notice that has been cancelled, you might struggle

 

Whatever you decide, I never advise pleading guilty if you do not genuinely believe that you have committed any offence

 

You say you work for another TOC, have you tried approaching the RMT rep (or other appropriate union if you are in one) for advice?

[spoonflip]

If you are going to court for the non payment of a penalty, the train company will have a copy of the notice and have to send you a copy along with the summons. The prosecutor on the day will have a copy of the notice with them, that copy will have your signature/details, the amount paid, date time etc, so if you paid in full then it will be noted on there and you have no case to answer.

[bribri]

Hi

 

The ticket barriers were open and the ticket office was closed

 

Isn't this a relevant part of the statement?

[Old-CodJA]

If you are going to court for the non payment of a penalty, the train company will have a copy of the notice and have to send you a copy along with the summons. The prosecutor on the day will have a copy of the notice with them, that copy will have your signature/details, the amount paid, date time etc, so if you paid in full then it will be noted on there and you have no case to answer.

 

That is correct, but we need to remove the confusion here.

 

Non-payment of a penalty fare is not a matter that can be put before a Magistrates Court. That is a Civil matter and would have to be put before a County Court

 

 

A traveller can be prosecuted for fare evasion in a Magistrates Court if they fail to pay, but the PF has to be cancelled first and the TOC can then allege non-payment of the single fare.

 

The OP has said the allegation is non-payment of a 5 pound fare, not a penalty fare, which is why I asked whether he had any receipt for the penalty that he has claimed was paid.

[Old-CodJA]

Isn't this a relevant part of the statement?

 

There may have been alternative payment facilities such as a self-service ticket machine or at the very least a permit to travel machine.

 

A penalty fare could not be levied if there wasn't and even if the barriers are open, that does not absolve the traveller of the liability for buying a ticket where facilities exist to do so.

.

[spoonflip]

If a nil paid notice is issued and not dealt with by the passenger after the 21 days and then no response is heard after a final reminder letter is sent out (2 weeks later) the matter then reverts to the bylaws and becomes a breach of bylaw 18; which will be heard in a Magistrates Court. My point was that if the passenger paid the notice in full and the TOC are taking them to court in regards to that paid notice, the TOC must have made an administration error or the passenger is being taken to court for an entirely different matter. If it is because of the paid notice the passenger need not worry as the paper work will prove that a PF was issued and paid for by the passenger on that day and no case can be brought against them; but I have to say there seems to be more to this story than is being disclosed......pp if a nil paid notice is issued and reverts back to the bylaw 18, the charge will be for the original £5 fare.

Edited October 8, 2010 by spoonflip
adding

[Smurftastic]

lol, i guess you are talking about £20.00 paid + details supplied and multiple letters ignored?

[Old-CodJA]

Deleted duplication

[Old-CodJA]

If a nil paid notice is issued and not dealt with by the passenger after the 21 days and then no response is heard after a final reminder letter is sent out (2 weeks later) the matter then reverts to the bylaws and becomes a breach of bylaw 18; which will be heard in a Magistrates Court. My point was that if the passenger paid the notice in full and the TOC are taking them to court in regards to that paid notice, the TOC must have made an administration error or the passenger is being taken to court for an entirely different matter. If it is because of the paid notice the passenger need not worry as the paper work will prove that a PF was issued and paid for by the passenger on that day and no case can be brought against them; but I have to say there seems to be more to this story than is being disclosed......pp if a nil paid notice is issued and reverts back to the bylaw 18, the charge will be for the original £5 fare.

 

Exactly, which is why I asked the question about 6 posts back

[Old-CodJA]

From experience of prosecuting such cases, I can say I have can seen a few similar cases in the past and various reasons why this might arise, but all would rely on an error or worse and I don't propose to enter debate about it.

 

If a PF was properly made out as paid for the whole journey, the OP has nothing to fear.

 

There may be more to the story and unless we are ever fortunate enough to learn that, we can only go what we are told.

[Chryso]

My ticket which I purchased was a Young person Railcard discounted ticket, I was not a Railcard Holder, and I not have filled in an application form for the Railcard or signed to say that I accept and understand the conditions of issue.

Whereas to my understanding, the Student Oyster card I have currently was the discount rail card I purchased from the machine. I do not understand the difference between the student railcard and the student Oyster card, I was put undert under duress and unlawful detainment for a ticket I thought I was purchasing lawfully.

Whereas A Person and a voice recording are my 2 witnesses to these events,

Whereas I refused to sign and bind myself to a contract I did not understand, my clear terms and conditions that the Agent number SR*** states on the receipt that it is under duress that I provide my name and address which the agent finally agrees to state that passanger states ''details were given under duress'' on the back of the Notice and the other 3 copies.

Whereas I wished to stand under Common Law Juristiction but the Agent stated quote '' Do you really want to go down that path?'' my reply was yes, which the agent went on to state that he refuses to stand under common law jursitiction,

Whereas I had asked numerous times if I had breached the peace,harmed, or caused loss or injury to any human being and if I was detained, I was told that I am not allowed to leave unless I give my name and address,

 

My reasons for having a student discount prepaid ticket, my first time ever purchasing such a ticket and that to my knowledge that was the ticket I should get according to my student status,as being within the age limit of 16-25 years of age,

Whereas I was travelling from New cross gate at 12.23pm when I bought the card from a ticket machine, I have never heard of a rail card, and to my understanding I was travelling Lawfully.

Whereas travel times are as follows:

Departed New cross gate station at **** date and time

Arrived in London Bridge station at **** date and time.

 

This is my appeal so far, I havent sent it yet, please could you advise me how to go about with this the most correct way, for my rights have been violated.

Thank you.

[spoonflip]

If you don't have a young persons discount card unfortunately you will be liable for a penalty for not having the correct documentation. When you buy your tickets from the machine there is a button that you can press to show you the restrictions for that ticket. As for the name and address part, failing to provide your name and address to an authorised collector, is the only part of the penalty fare scheme that is a criminal offense and could be passed onto the BTP or dealt with by enforcing bylaw 23. By all means appeal but dont hold your breath. My only advice would be to always co-operate and argue later.

[Chryso]

To my understanding isnt Justice before Law paramount?

I now comprehend that I had made a different purchase to my normal purchases, is it lawful for a person to accept a Penalty Notice without his/shes understanding?

Whereas to my understanding that a bill needs to be issued before a receipt is given out? Does that mean I could ask for the bill?

What is a Penalty Fare Notice/receipt?

What is a Bill?

According to the penalty scheme I complied with that my details would be provided under my terms and conditions which were protest and duress, which finally the agent accepted to write at the back of my ticket when I revealed my recording device,

Is it lawful for a agent to tell me he is not detaining me but until I give him my details I can go?

What does detaining mean?

What is the difference between Civil Law and Common Law, if I claim the right to stand under Common Law does that mean that all statutory rules or Bylaws are at different authorities?

My apologies if these are many questions, I believe thar Justice needs to be served.

Thank you

Chryso