Driving instructor warranty issue

[mathmagician]

Hi folks, a different one for you here. My wife uses a 500 Abarth as her weapon of choice for teaching people to drive. To put everything in context, she is a sole trader, the car is under finance by me (bought as an engagement present) and was purchased in March 09. It has after sale dual controls fitted by a specialist (He-Man).

Recently a bush has failed on the clutch pedal causing it to grind. The Abarth dealership are refusing to fix it under warranty because of the dual controls. Now the dual controls merely depresses the clutch from the other side of the car. In the words of He Man, the clutch has no idea which side it is being pushed from. It isn't operating outside its normal parameters. He Man have also never had this reported as an issue and thes dual controls are fitted to hundreds of fiat 500s currently used by BSM. The work will cost upward of £100 and possibly £480 if the pedal box (?) needs replacing.

We don't believe the duals have caused the part to fail. Duals were fitted to my wife's previous fiat with no issue and as mentioned above, to all BSM cars. If all those vehicles operate without problem than the fault lies with the car not the duals.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. We have started a case with Fiat UK and are still waiting to hear but if it is rejected what avenues to we have?

[patdavies]

I wonder if Fiat's stance arises from the fact that this is commercial use of the vehicle and thus outwith the consumer warranty.

[mathmagician]

Hasn't been an issue for most driving instructors. The issues typically arise in the case of wear and tear parts such as clutch plates, where understandably, manufacturers argue that cars are put through atypical use (repeated moving off and stoping). However other warranty issues are habitually honoured.

 

Of course there are always dealerships who will try and worm their way out of any warranty claim. "You can't have your electric windows fixed under warranty, you modified the car by fitting dual controls," is my favourite to date.

[crem]

I have never had a warrantly issue refused by Vauxhall due to being a driving instructor either on a new car or even a reasonably high mileage used car. Admittedly I haven't had anything as serious as a clutch go on a car but I did have an indicator control stalk fail on an Astra. I bought it 2nd hand at about 40K miles and the indicaator control failed at 57K miles. It was 2 1/2 years old by then but my local dealer quite happily changed it under the 3year / 60,000 mile warranty even though I am sure they could have claimed my learners were probably being "abusive" with the indicator stalk.

[mathmagician]

Hi folks an update. The complaint to fiat UK got us nowhere, they just ring the dealer and ask why it was rejected. After crawling around in the car footwell we have ascertained that the pedal has not been drilled into which, it turns out, was the initial reason for rejection. On that basis we have requested it be fixed under warranty. They have now agreed and it has been booked in. I am not counting my chickens yet however. We shall see.

[Hammy1962]

Of course there are always dealerships who will try and worm their way out of any warranty claim. "You can't have your electric windows fixed under warranty, you modified the car by fitting dual controls," is my favourite to date.

 

Why would a dealer try and worm their way out of a warranty repair?

 

It's the manufacturer who foots the bill not the garage. It's good money. fixed parts price, fixed labour cost and very little comeback or checks from the bill payer, the manufacturer. The customer gets away scott free.

 

Hammy

[heliosuk]

Well the op has achieved the goal but I have to admit these HE MAN controls cause issues and have done for as long as I remember. In fact I was threatend with a knife some 20 years ago over the same said issue. Fortunately plod had a file on this instructor and I read some moths later he was having his grub and sleeping arrangements being supplied for by us.

 

If fitted correctly they work. There is therfore the question if not, so can see the dealerships point of view. Thing is that the dealerships pay low so no hope of geting a sensible answer.

[mathmagician]

Well the issue was and Heliosk might be able to clarify this, they said they couldn't replace the part as it had been drilled into. Now if defective parts have to be returned to manufacturer as part of the warranty work I can see why it would have been a problem. Of course if they just replaced the broken bush rather than the whole pedal it wouldn't be an issue but that goes back to a lack of skill in main dealerships.

As for dealers refusing to honour warranty claims, a lot of it comes down to them not understanding warranties. Furthermore customers don't realise it either and accept it at face value. A modification only invalidates the warranty of the part it affects, not the warranty on the whole car.

A more local dealer hypothesised a lower rate of labour being paid out by the warranty underwriters compared with the rate they charge customers. Not sold on that theory though.

[Britainsworstdriver]

No dual controls I have ever seen in 30 years are drilled into pedals. They are always clamped to the pedal arms.

 

He-man make controls for each individual car, granted they are all based on the same idea and are either rod or cable controlled, but they take the actual car and remanufacture plates, rods, clamps etc to suit each individual car. That is to say that vauxhall Corsa duals are similar but also different to Fiat 500 duals.

 

I had problems over a warranty with Pentagon Vauxhall in Mansfield a couple of years back when a used Corsa I just paid £5k for that came with a 6 month warranty, actually had no warranty at all as the warranty specifically excluded the likes of taxis, hiring AND driving schools!

 

Of course, the outcome of that is that I will never buy another car from them again.

 

Anyway, the bottom line is that the garage cannot claim the duals have caused any problems with the pedals.

[heliosuk]

Well the issue was and Heliosk might be able to clarify this, they said they couldn't replace the part as it had been drilled into. Now if defective parts have to be returned to manufacturer as part of the warranty work I can see why it would have been a problem. Of course if they just replaced the broken bush rather than the whole pedal it wouldn't be an issue but that goes back to a lack of skill in main dealerships.

As for dealers refusing to honour warranty claims, a lot of it comes down to them not understanding warranties. Furthermore customers don't realise it either and accept it at face value. A modification only invalidates the warranty of the part it affects, not the warranty on the whole car.

A more local dealer hypothesised a lower rate of labour being paid out by the warranty underwriters compared with the rate they charge customers. Not sold on that theory though.

 

Actually this is a grey area and raises some interesting questions. I deal with the points raised from the bottom upwards. Franchised dealers are paid a lower rate than retail usually around 4/5ths however you need to bear in mind it's strictly regulated but open to abuse and has been and I'm sure still will be. Then it is work which they are obliged to carry out so I can see why the rate is lower. It's a guaranteed source of income if the rules are followed properly.

Your next point is actually wrong. ANY modification to the car away from the manufactuers specification will technically invalidate the whole car warranty however this is often overlooked as you point out as it would be difficult to argue that there is a direct link between the pedal box and say a piece of trim falling off in the boot. However in this case there is a direct link. It's also interesting to note that when insuring the car this question is specifically asked. Another example would be the fitting of wheels. They must be the exact same size as originally fitted. Any deviation unless agreed technically invalidates the policy.

 

Your next point made me smile and I wish I had the time to prove to the manufactuers exactly what you said. Years ago the manufactuers would buy in every single part from a supplier and assemble on site. Now it's different and tiered. They now buy assemblies from a tier one. The tier 1 buys from tier 2 and tier 2 might buy from tier 3. The supply agreement is with tier 1 which is for assemblies so if a bush fails or a spring goes "boing" the manufactuer has to supply to the repairer the assembly. The idea was to streamline the logistics chain which in an ideal world if nothing failed as great. However it did throw up exactly the issue you mention.

 

If you want a laugh then think on this. The above pedal box is a good example but there is currently an issue on some manufactuers vehicles with a powered adjustable steering column. The part cost is in excess of £800. The failure.................a nylon clip costing less than 2 pence!!!!

 

The actual answer to the original post is frankly inexperience and lack of knowledge.

[sailor sam]

Helio is spot on here... and so is Hammy. Speaking as an ex-Fiat service/warranty after sales manager, what the OP should of done was arrange the modification via the selling dealership. There would of been no issues with the warranty if he had. Any modification to a new car would need to be approved by a franchised dealership to retain the conditions of the warranty. However, you will find that Fiat are generally very good with these things and I would be very surprised if they 'pass the buck'. The 500 in particular is a model they are very keen to maintain it's high profile for all the right reasons. I belive you will have no problems in getting this sorted.

[crem]

I disagree that the installation of Heman dual controls constitutes a "modification" to the vehicle and generally speaking, even if you do ask the dealer to install the He-man controls, 9 times out of 10, they will call in the same "authorised installer" that He-man have in place near your location anyway that most of us call in to fit them for us directly! 10s of thousands of cars are fitted like this.

 

The he-man duals simply clamp around the brake and clutch pedal arm and as has already been stated, the car "doesn't know which actual pedal was pushed" as all the resultant force is applied at the driver's side just as if the driver's pedals were pressed.

[sailor sam]

I disagree that the installation of Heman dual controls constitutes a "modification" to the vehicle and generally speaking, even if you do ask the dealer to install the He-man controls, 9 times out of 10, they will call in the same "authorised installer" that He-man have in place near your location anyway that most of us call in to fit them for us directly! 10s of thousands of cars are fitted like this.

 

In some circumsatnces you could be right but in Fiat's warranty clauses, there are certain uses which would invalidate the warranty. At the end of the day by asking the franchised dealer to fit these pedals, you are, in fact obtaining the relevant approval needed to cover any warranty issue. The point that the dealer would employ an 'authorised installer' is fairly obvious but the fact is that it is being arranged by the dealer thus authorising the modification. All that said, like i stated in my previous post I would wager that Fiat will sort this out anyway.

[heliosuk]

Yes crem but your missing the point. The manufactuer designs, builds, validates and warrants those parts to a specific specification. Any change by the addition or deletion of parts and accesories has to be validated by them. With the he man dual controls there are two aspects to the fitment.

If it is a rod control system then this will change the "moment",in engineering terms, of the system that is designed and tested to operate under if the instructor has to use it. Then if it's a cable system the force is merely transferredbetween on set of pedal and another however the reactive force is significantly changed dependin on the way the controls are fixed. Notwithstanding that, the method of fixing plays a very important part as this too can not only affect the force required to operate the system but also changes the mechanical properties of the affected part.

 

On this basis, as the manufactuer has no control over this then it invalidates the warranty.

 

The fortunate thing is that when designing these parts they have to go through a process called FMEA which should take these instances into account. The result is that frequently many parts end up costing more than they actually could purely on the basis that someone might interfere with them.

 

Then we have the issue of how the dual contols are mounted. In order to transmit the forces they have to be bolted down to something solid, i.e. the bulkhead just like the pedal box. This will involve drilling through it which will then compromise the corrosion protection for a start let alone the potential crash and fire resistance.

 

So as you can see, things are not always as straightforward as might appear.

 

If the dealer asks for it to be fitted by an agent then it is their responsibility to ensure that it is fitted in accordance with manufactuers guidelines and if these don't exist then they should say so or take advice from the manufactuers tech department, as they are effectively then endorsing the warranty.

[crem]

Well if any of these major car manufacturers wish to publish in the driving instructors news articles that they consider that fitting He-Man dual controls to any of their cars invalidates their warranties, I am sure all my fellow instructors will be pleased to hear (as well as ceasing purchase of any of said manufacturers cars)

[heliosuk]

You've not read the posts properly crem. What they say is, is if you have them fitted through the dealer then they sanction the warranty as being valid. To go outside of it for the fitment of said accesories could raise problems but doesn't necessarilly mean it will. The technical explanation illustrates why a manufactuer would be justified in saying warranty does not apply but as pointed out does not mean they will actually negate it.

 

All manufactuers will say the same so please publish.

[crem]

You've not read the posts properly crem. What they say is, is if you have them fitted through the dealer then they sanction the warranty as being valid. To go outside of it for the fitment of said accesories could raise problems but doesn't necessarilly mean it will. The technical explanation illustrates why a manufactuer would be justified in saying warranty does not apply but as pointed out does not mean they will actually negate it.

 

All manufactuers will say the same so please publish.

 

 

I did read it and concluded, as ever, the car dealers/manufacturers are suggesting it's ok to fit it if we ask Harry to do it, but if you ask Harry to do it, then the warranty is screwed.

 

You know as well as I do that the car dealers do not use their own mechanics to fit He-Man controls, they call in the local He-Man fitter. Strangely enough so do we usually!

[Britainsworstdriver]

Lets just agree that all car manufacturers and all dealers are out to take your money and give you sweet freddy Armitage in return. If there is any way on God's earth they can jump ship on any responsibility whatsoever, they will.

 

I personally wouldn't wee on a car dealer if he was on fire.

[heliosuk]

LOL at Britain.

 

The fact is crem, and I do see where you are coming from is that if the dealer arranges it they sanction it on behalf of the manufactuer. The responsibility to make sure it complies is theirs. They might well use the same person to fit. If it goes all Pete Tong then it's the dealer and manufactuers responsibility. If you do it privately then you're on your own.

 

Tis a stupid situation I know. Hence my suggestion that the motor industry needs to be regulated and even more so now that cars are more complex.

 

Hey britain, most are trying to earn a living, perhaps your post is more applicable to bankers. It's interesting to note that the UK car industry didn't benefit fom anything yet you and I bailed out the bankers and in my mind there is little difference between the conception of a used car salesman and a banker.

[mathmagician]

Now that raises even more interestng questions. I ordered a car from an Audi dealership before Xmas and in my pack, I received a special offer for an aftermarket performance exhaust system. Does this mean that as the dealer was offering to fit it, I would maintain my warranty?

 

Interesting to hear that it voids the whole warranty. It is accepted wisdom on a number of motoring forums that it should only void the warranty on parts directly linked to the modification (the one most often mentioned being of course engine tuning which would invalidate the entire drivetrain).

[mathmagician]

Update. The car went in and as it turns out the clutch pedal was cracked as well as the bush being knackered. All fixed under warranty, one happy consumer. Dealership also going to make an offer due to time wasted, loss of income etc...

Faith restored.

[sailor sam]

Very pleased for you!

 

Looks like my posts (#11/13) were not far off about Fiat!

 

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