1987 Mortgage debt - still being chased!!

[inspectorgadget]

HELP!!!! I am at my wits end, I took out a mortgage with TSB in the late 1980's, I got to stage where I could not afford to live in the property so rented it out to the council, after about 6 months the tenant started to shirk on his responsibilities so the council did not pay me. I could not pay the mortgage & like an ididot did nothing about it. The flat was reposessed without my knowledge. after a couple of years ad passed I just thought it had all squared itself up, flat worth against mortgage due.....NO, TSB (Lloyds) are now pursuing me for 28k!! The mortgage was only £38k & the property was worth about £50k (at the time), what did they sell the property for that I still owe them £28k!!

 

I have never acknowledged the debt even though they have been chasing for about 4 years & issued a CCJ in 2008. My issue is, I work in the Financial Services Industry & my employers are now forcing me to aknowledge to them that the debt is mine (I could lose my job....) I'm scared if I do, I am going to be liable for the whole sum & could be jobless...all my worst nightmares at once come true... I'd rather emigrate quite frankly.

 

I know it was stupid of me to ignore the debt, but now I'm really up pooh creek..

 

Your advice would be most gratefully appreciated.

[supersleuth]

Very strange.

 

Don't understand how they got a CCJ against you in 2004. Did you have notice of the action against you at the time the claim was issued?

 

You see, after 12 years from the date of you repossession has passed (say approximately 1989-90), then the Statute of Limitations would have rendered the the contract and mortgage deed non-justiciable. i.e., by say 2002.

 

Who is the THEY you refer to? Is it Lloyds as the original bank or the new version of Lloyds as in the LloydsTSB, or is it a debt collector. The name of the entity that holds a CCJ is important especially if it is not the original lender.

 

If you are now going to try and unravel all this, the major problem is they've got a CCJ despite the fact that the Statute of Limitations rendered their claim void. But nonetheless, you're being held to ransom. Without knowing how the CCJ came to be e.g. whether you had notice, who the claimants were, when and how you found out about the CCJ etc., can say how to go about tackling this problem

 

It's not just your job that's on the line becuase usually they also seek to put a charge on your current house and repossess your new home. Don't mean to upset you, but that's the reality of the evilness of these people.

 

Your employers cannot force you to acknowledge them - there has been a breach of the data protection act if your debtor has been in contact with your employer. And it is evidence of how these banks all stick together to extort cash of us all. So you want to start asking your employer how they came to be informed of this very old "alledged" debt and you may want to do a SAR on the alledged creditor to find out who else they've (maybe unlawfully) given your information to.

 

The 28K will be entirely compound interest that has accrued over the intervening period. There may have been only a very small shortfall but the decade of monthly compounding interest has made it grow to £28K.

 

As for the emigration idea. That's my solution too...the ordinary person in this country is just a slave to the whole corrupt system of courts, banks, FSA etc. etc. they will take the drippings off the end of your nose.

 

The only substantive suggestion is: if they say that you owe them, ask them for ALL the documentation that evidences the alleged debt. Do it in writing, but make sure that you state clearly at the beginning of the letter that you do not acknowledge nor believe that you have any contract with them whatsoever, you expressly deny the debt that they alleged against you, and that the letter is sent expressly without any prejudice to your rights and any claims and remedies that you may assert against them.

Edited January 3, 2010 by supersleuth

[supersleuth]

Another thought, you need to arm yourself with information. So go to the Land Registry to find out (a) who they sold your property to and for how much, (b) then check for whether the property was sold on again. This information is public information now and it is relatively cheap to get copies of the documents. It really will be worth the leg-work.

 

During the 1987-1991 repossessions of that time, one of the scandals was the back-to-back sales. So if Lloyds "turned" the property, i.e. for a low price and then the buyer sold it on a few days later for a much higher price, you could argue that Lloyds sold the property at undervalue and that the 2nd sale was the real value, which means, that there was no shortfall and therefore the deed was fully satisfied. Did you follow that? It may be worth a shot because the banks frequently engaged in this fraudulent activity and it was rife in the early 90's.

 

It might even turn out that they owe you money with monthly compound interest!

[postggj]

What Was The Date Of The Repo

[inspectorgadget]

Very strange.

 

Don't understand how they got a CCJ against you in 2004. Did you have notice of the action against you at the time the claim was issued?

 

You see, after 12 years from the date of you repossession has passed (say approximately 1989-90), then the Statute of Limitations would have rendered the the contract and mortgage deed non-justiciable. i.e., by say 2002.

 

Who is the THEY you refer to?

 

If you are now going to try and unravel all this, the major problem is they've got a CCJ despite the fact that the Statute of Limitations rendered their claim void. But nonetheless, you're being held to ransom. Without knowing how the CCJ came to be e.g. whether you had notice, who the claimants were, when and how you found out about the CCJ etc., can say how to go about tackling this problem

 

Your employers cannot force you to acknowledge them

 

The 28K will be entirely compound interest that has accrued over the intervening period. There may have been only a very small shortfall but the decade of monthly compounding interest has made it grow to £28K.

 

 

The only substantive suggestion is: if they say that you owe them, ask them for ALL the documentation that evidences the alleged debt. Do it in writing, but make sure that you state clearly at the beginning of the letter that you do not acknowledge nor believe that you have any contract with them whatsoever, you expressly deny the debt that they alleged against you, and that the letter is sent expressly without any prejudice to your rights and any claims and remedies that you may assert against them.

 

Hi, Sorry for late response & many thanks for yor mail, here are some answers:-

 

The Mortgage was taken out in Aug '90 / Repossesion was Nov 96, they say the property was sold for £25k, the mortgage outstanding was £42.9k, the interest is running at 8% PA

 

Not sure about the notice of action, I have moved at least 5 times since I was at the property, so if I did, I never recevied anything,

I found out about the debt in 2006 (approximately) after being chased by a Manchester debt collector, when I did not respond they must have gone back to Lloyds who then took out the CCJ

 

my employers did a 'background check' on me when they employed me (new security rules so they say...) & this materialised. I also thought they did not have a leg to stand on, but I know better now..

The Mortgage was with TSB bank Plc, the CCJ is with Lloyds Bank Plc.... very strange

I have never acknowledged the debt because I knews that would get me into even deeper water without a solicitor...which would have made it twice as bad.

Jesus! 28k of interest.... WTF....can they really do that?? Do you think they are just trying to see what they can get using scare mongering of the little guy tactics. So you really think my current property is at stake?It really is time to take my head out of the sand & tackle this once & for all, I'll try to draft a letter over the weekend & forward to them on your advice

Thanks for the advice re: the Land registry details too, I will indeed have a look, any money I can get back will be les money I owe in the long run. I'll ask get onto that right now

 

Many thanks again

Edited January 5, 2010 by inspectorgadget

[inspectorgadget]

What Was The Date Of The Repo

 

Hi, the date of repossesion was 15/11/96, the mortgage was taken out on 31/08/90

[postggj]

Did You Make Any Acknowledgement On This Shortfall Or Make Any Payments Between

 

15/11/96 And

 

15/11/2008

[Ell-enn]

Do you know when the last payment was made on the mortgage and also what was the date of the CCJ ?

 

It sounds as if they got the CCJ by default as you didn't respond to the court claim - did they have your new address after the repossession?

[supersleuth]

Your 50K flat sold for £25K - yeah right...in addition to the guidance that Ellen will give you, I strongly recommend that you go to the Land Registry to see if there was a back-to-back sale of your property - could almost guarantee that there was! Whilst the first sale may have been for 25K, there most likely would have been a further sale for say £50K. The mortgagee is under a fiduciary duty to sell for a market price and therefore, if there was a futher sale, as I strongly suspect for say market value at e.g. £50K, then they would owe you £8.5K plus interest.

 

Therefore, in addition to Ellen's guidance it is also really is worth your while checking out with the Land REgistry what sales were executed within the years 1996 - 1997.

[JonCris]

Hi, Sorry for late response & many thanks for yor mail, here are some answers:-

 

The Mortgage was taken out in Aug '90 / Repossesion was Nov 96, they say the property was sold for £25k, the mortgage outstanding was £42.9k, the interest is running at 8% PA

 

Not sure about the notice of action, I have moved at least 5 times since I was at the property, so if I did, I never recevied anything,

I found out about the debt in 2006 (approximately) after being chased by a Manchester debt collector, when I did not respond they must have gone back to Lloyds who then took out the CCJ

 

my employers did a 'background check' on me when they employed me (new security rules so they say...) & this materialised. I also thought they did not have a leg to stand on, but I know better now..

The Mortgage was with TSB bank Plc, the CCJ is with Lloyds Bank Plc.... very strange

I have never acknowledged the debt because I knews that would get me into even deeper water without a solicitor...which would have made it twice as bad.

Jesus! 28k of interest.... WTF....can they really do that?? Do you think they are just trying to see what they can get using scare mongering of the little guy tactics. So you really think my current property is at stake?It really is time to take my head out of the sand & tackle this once & for all, I'll try to draft a letter over the weekend & forward to them on your advice

Thanks for the advice re: the Land registry details too, I will indeed have a look, any money I can get back will be les money I owe in the long run. I'll ask get onto that right now

 

Many thanks again

 

Mortgage Aug 90

When did you default

When was CCJ obtained (was it within 12 years of default)

 

Sorry Ell-en great minds think alike:D

Edited January 6, 2010 by JonCris
Wrong mortgage start date

[supersleuth]

Hi, Sorry for late response & many thanks for yor mail, here are some answers:-

 

 

Thanks for the advice re: the Land registry details too, I will indeed have a look, any money I can get back will be les money I owe in the long run. I'll ask get onto that right now

 

 

Hi Inspectorgadget,

 

Just to clarify..the point is, that if your lender did engage in the back-to-back selling of your property, and did really sell for say, 50K, then would not be a question of "less money you owe in the long run", it means that you owe no money at all! You see, if there was really no shortfall, then there was no shortfall on which interest accrued, which means the you may have a complete defence (if you can show there was a back-to-back sale and therefore a breach of fiduciary duty).

 

Plus, it means that say the surplus, i.e. £8.5K that was owed to you, but not paid to you, would have attracted compound interest at the contractual rate. Thus, it could turn out that they owe YOU £28K or more!. All this of course is dependent on your finding out the facts from the Land Registry. As I said before, the lenders regularly engaged in this back-to-back selling fraud during that period of repossessions. You just need to find out if you too, were a victim of that crime.

[inspectorgadget]

Did You Make Any Acknowledgement On This Shortfall Or Make Any Payments Between

 

15/11/96 And

 

15/11/2008

 

Nice thing about the snow..I get to work from home

 

Thanks for your responses, I have made no acknowledgement of the debt whatsoever even to this date. I just feel nowI should tackle this thing head on as its causing me undue stress...

[inspectorgadget]

Your 50K flat sold for £25K - yeah right...in addition to the guidance that Ellen will give you, I strongly recommend that you go to the Land Registry - then they would owe you £8.5K plus interest.

 

Therefore, in addition to Ellen's guidance it is also really is worth your while checking out with the Land REgistry what sales were executed within the years 1996 - 1997.

 

I will indeed check out the land registry over this coming weekend, its worth it if I can throw this back on them, It would be a nice surprise if it appreciated in value even in such bad times (that was the height of the last recession)

[postggj]

When Was The Ccj Awarded

[inspectorgadget]

Do you know when the last payment was made on the mortgage and also what was the date of the CCJ ?

 

It sounds as if they got the CCJ by default as you didn't respond to the court claim - did they have your new address after the repossession?

 

Hi, I think the last payment was made in 1994, bu to be truthful, I could not guarantee thatas I have discarded all of my TSB documents... a bit silly of me. I never gave them my new address, I suspect they got it from the electorial register or from one ofthe credit reference agencies as they track your adresses don't they?

[inspectorgadget]

When Was The Ccj Awarded

 

Hi, The CCJ was awarded in Jan 2008

[postggj]

Date Of Repo

15/11/96

Add 12 Years

15/11/2008

 

Ok When Was The Last Cause Of Action, That Is Made A Payment To This Mortage Account

[inspectorgadget]

Do I have a case against Lloyds if the claim was taken out 12 years after the repossesion order? The property was repossesed 16/08/96 & sold on 15/1196, judgement was passed on 25/02/08.

[postggj]

Well Its Not 12 Years

 

Anything After 15/11/2008 Would Be Unlawful

 

Now If It Was Statute Barred

 

This Is Important

 

When Was The Last Time You Made A Payment Prior To Any Ccj

[inspectorgadget]

Date Of Repo

15/11/96

Add 12 Years

15/11/2008

 

Ok When Was The Last Cause Of Action, That Is Made A Payment To This Mortage Account

 

Hi again, as last said, not 100% sure when the last payment was made, I said end of 1994, but sayingthat though it must have been after this as they woyuld not have waited 2 years to repossess... I would never be able to find this out unless I asked for copies of them frm Lloyds TSB.

[postggj]

Well You Would Be Able To

 

You Need To Do An Sar On Lloyds

You Need To Tell Them The Account Is Live And The Statute Of Limitations Start 6 Years From The Date Of The Ccj So The Age Of The Account Is Irelevent

 

You Require All Statements In The Sar To Be Released

 

Request That They Must Include Full Statements Up To The Default/termination Notice

[inspectorgadget]

Well You Would Be Able To

 

You Need To Do An Sar On Lloyds

You Need To Tell Them The Account Is Live And The Statute Of Limitations Start 6 Years From The Date Of The Ccj So The Age Of The Account Is Irelevent

 

You Require All Statements In The Sar To Be Released

 

Request That They Must Include Full Statements Up To The Default/termination Notice

 

Hi, many thanks again, this is all new unchartered territory for me & I am glad for the navigation assistance, do I write to the address on the CCJ which is Gloucester GL4 3RL?

[postggj]

For The Sar, You Need To Send To Whoever Held Your Mortage Account With Account Number

[Ell-enn]

As far as I am aware County Court Judgements are not constrained by the Limitations Act. However, if there has been a long time between the CCJ being granted and the claimant pressing for money then the court may request a hearing to determine why they have waited so long.

[postggj]

Ell-enn

 

What I Am Getting At On This One Is If There Has Been No Payment For 12 Years, Thats Up To The Ccj, Then It Would Be Statute Barred And A Reason To Have The Judgement Set Asside

 

Do You Agree