6 CCA letters ready to go-- few questions, then our progress

[nick20045]

After reading some info on another thread i thought i might knock up a letter using some info posted by another cagger and fire it off to the more argumentative DCA's left on the hit list

 

is this any good

Additions and notes:

 

Your ref:

My ref: Account in dispute

 

With reference to the above account, as a registered debt collection agency you are licensed by the OFT to trade and therefore have promised to abide by guidelines set out by the OFT.

 

Should you fail to abide by the rules and conditions you undertook to obtain your license, I believe it is understood you can be reported to said OFT so that you can be investigated as to whether you are fit to hold said license.

I would like to draw your attention to 2.8 f of the OFT guidelines;

 

I refer you to the following from the OFT Guidelines namely:

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

f. passing on debtor details to debt management companies without the

debtors' informed prior consent

i. failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is

queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued

 

k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or

disputed debt.

passing on debtor details to debt management companies without the

debtors' informed prior consent

 

Considering the above you are to make available within the next 14 days a copy of the letter sent by the original creditor in which my consent was sought and, also a copy of the letter giving my consent.

 

You are to note that should you be unable to make available the above requested documents within the stipulated time, then you are acting contrary to the terms and conditions you agreed to abide by when applying for your license. Should this be the case then you are to take this letter as a service of a section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and cease and desist from handling my personal data any further. Furthermore, you are to cease and desist from contacting me again and failure of this I will be reporting your company to the OFT for investigation.

As a result of the above I am now asking you for a copy of the letter from the original creditor asking for my consent, also you must include a copy of my written response to such a request confirming my authority for my details to be passed onto yourselves.

 

I request your written response including copies of both letters to reach myself in no longer than 14 days.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Signed: P.O. Peye

 

Oh and you NEVER ask, beg, request. You DEMAND IT IS MADE AVAILABLE. You are the ALPHA DOG. The DCA is the Biatch. Always stay in control. You are the one with the power not them.

[nick20045]

NOTE: I have NOT read all of the posts on this thread and to be honest I neither intend to.

 

I have based the above amendments on what was in the post. I suggest the OP to edit his letter, repost and then it can be examined again.

 

Also such a letter should be sent to the C.E.O. The reason being that IF there are any arguments later on then it cannot be claimed that it was acted on by some "monkey" but it was the C.E.O. who decided to continue breaching the OFT Guidelines.

 

Besides, having C.E.O.s of such companies receive lots of letters it will keep them busy and stops them from bonking the secretary. :razz::razz:

[nick20045]

here you go, i take it the ceo is to be found at the address normally found on their letters??

C.E.O. means Chief Executive Officer and yes he will be at the address on the letter

 

Letter to be sent recorded mail so have proof of delivery.

 

This is WHY I do NOT agree with templates. You just basically cut and pasted what I wrote. Even to the extent that spacing between paragraphs are not equal. (Shows tidyness and discipline).

 

Here is an edited version that applies to your case. You will notice that they are in breach of 3 guidelines plus the CCA regulations.

 

Dear Sirs

 

Ref:

 

With reference to the above account, which is currently in dispute with yourselves due to your failure to comply with my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.78 ).

 

As a registered debt collection agency you are licensed by the OFT to trade and therefore have promised to abide by guidelines set out by the OFT. Should you fail to abide by the rules and conditions you undertook to obtain your license, I believe it is understood you can be reported to said OFT so that you can be investigated as to whether you are fit to hold said license

 

I refer you to the following from the OFT Guidelines namely:

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

f. passing on debtor details to debt management companies without the

debtors' informed prior consent

 

i. failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is

queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued

 

k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or

disputed debt.

Considering the above, besides the copy of the executed agreement request which you have failed to honour, I am now also demanding a copy of the letter from the original creditor asking for my consent, (in reference to 2.8 f ) and also you must include a copy of my written response to such a request confirming my authority for my details to be passed onto yourselves.

 

You are to note that as you have failed to answer to my s.78 application the law states that the account is in dispute and is unenforceable. Furthermore, in respect of the above paragraph, I require your written response including copies of both letters to reach myself in no longer than 14 days.

 

You are to note that you are currently in breach of all the above guidelines. Furthermore, should you be unable to make available the above requested documents within the stipulated time, then you are acting contrary to the terms and conditions you agreed to abide by when applying for your license. Should this be the case then you are to take this letter as a service of a section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and cease and desist from handling my personal data any further. You are also to take notice that you are to cease and desist from contacting me again and failure of this I will be reporting your company to the OFT for investigation

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

and incidentally: Did you send them the letter "failure to abide by a s.77/78 application"??? It is in the templates in the debt collection agency section.

[nick20045]

i did try and put my own slant on it but i had to paste some as i'm not up speed with a lot of this yet,

It is not the cut and paste. It is the fact of not adapting something to ones own case. ALL cases are different and therefore one cannot just "copy" but has to adapt to suit that particular case.

 

i sent them the "failure to comply, notice of dispute letter" but one of them is arguing that the signed application form is enforcable

Adapt as needed.

Dear Sirs

 

Your reference:

My reference: Account in dispute.

 

I refer to your letter dated the xx/xx/2009 in which you state that a copy of a signed application form is enforceable.

 

I trust you do know that the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states that it has to be a true copy of an executed agreement and not an application form.

 

An application form can be for anything and to give an example it can be starting for an application for a driving license to an application for a flying license. Submitting a signed application form does not entitle one to do any of the mentioned examples. It is only when one gets the license that it becomes official.

 

Hence, on the basis of the above example, an application form for a credit agreement is simply and solely an application form. An application form can fail for numerous reasons and the creditor does not have to give credit solely because one has made an application.

 

It is once the agreement is executed that it becomes enforceable.

 

Considering the above and as you have failed to send me a copy of a true executed agreement, you have no right to continue acting in the manner you have been doing. The alleged debt is in dispute and will stay in dispute until as such time as you can submit to me a "true copy of the executed agreement". Should you continue to harass me then I will have no other alternative but to ask the OFT to assess as to whether you are fit to hold a credit license.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Note: Send both letters if possible in seperate envelopes and both recorded. It will give them two problems to be happy with solving.

[nick20045]

You might want to read post 7 on this thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/227605-guidance-cca-templates-esp.html

[nick20045]

And just in case............

 

Draft letter (edit as deemed fit)

 

Office of Fair Trading

address

address

post code

 

 

date

 

By recorded mail

 

Dear Sirs

 

Ref: Name of DCA

 

I wish to file a very serious complaint in respect of the above mentioned Debt Collecting Agency.

 

Namely, I am attaching copies of my letters sent to them dated the xx/xx/2010 and dated xx/xx/2010. I also attach copies of their subsequent replies.

 

Sirs, you are the goverment appointed body to give consumer credit licences for companys to trade as consumer creditors. You are also the body that has issued guidelines by which these licensed creditors have to abide.

 

In my case I am not interested in any investigation, by your office, as to whether or not the agreement is enforceable. If the Debt Collection Agency deems that the debt is enforceable they have the right to submit a claim with the County Court. I on the other hand, if that is the case, am prepared to challenge the claim and will then abide by any Court order. The simple fact that the Debt Collection Agency keeps harassing me but does not take any legal action, in itself, shows they know that they have no claim.

 

On the other hand, you will notice from my letters to the Debt Collection Agency that they are in breach of not one, but three of your guidelines. I have asked them to abide by your guidelines but it seems they just believe in flaunting them.

 

I therefore ask you to investigate as to why said company, who you granted a license to operate deems it fit to ignore the rules it agreed to be bound by.

 

You are to note, that a copy of this letter (and attachments) is being sent to my MP for his/her attention.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

P.O. Peye

[nick20045]

 

A creditor does not need consent to pass info to a Debt Collector.

 

Whatever else has been done, a creditor is allowed to pass details of a debt to a debt collector, as long as a debt exists and as long as the Data Protection Act is respected.

A debt cannot be assigned to anybody unless it goes through certain stages:

 

Stage 1: Default notice which must be properly executed

 

Stage 2: Letter of assignment

 

Do not forget that (let us assume), you have defaulted (for whatever reason) and (let us assume) that you get a default notice. Now let us also assume that you have gone over the 14 days of the default notice (say to manage to get the money together). BUT in order to protect your credit rating you decide to sell your wife, your car, your motorbike, your mother in law and you have collected enough money to pay off the debt in full you ALWAYS have first priority with your creditor. (Which obviously your creditor will prefer as selling your debt means a loss). It is when the debtor has lost the right (by long delay) to rectify the breach of agreement that the debt is sold on and then to sell it, there are certain rules/laws that have to be abided.

[nick20045]

What do you call somebody who contacts you, tells you they have bought the debt (and most probably will lie to you and send you some photoshop constructed letter of assignment) and gives "advise" on what you have to pay every month?

 

Or in short, what is a debt management agency? Somebody who tells you "how much you need to pay in respect of a debt". And any DCA that is their main perogative.

Edited January 10, 2010 by nick20045
Removed the word: Incidentally

[nick20045]

Case law:

 

Wilson v First County Trust

 

What was it all about? A woman took out a loan and put her BMW as security.

 

BUT that case is also used for all sorts of unenforceable agreements. Why? Because it is the basics of the agreement that is being enforced.

 

Case law:

 

Ferguson v British Gas

 

What was it all about? A woman was being harassed by loads of "computer generated letters".

 

BUT that case showed that as a "computer is programmed by a person to specific matters" then the company is liable.

 

So all in all, what are DCA's? Debt management companies. Define the word "management" in the English language.

 

So "somebody" is now telling you "how and how much" to "pay per month" towards that debt. And if that "somebody" happens to have bought the debt what difference does it make?

 

For a sheep is not a sheep if it is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Law is to "Mix and match". You could be reading some case law and thing "Oh heck! This does not apply to me BUT there may be one, just one small passage that is relevant to your case and that one passage can swing your case to a win".

[nick20045]

right capquest re the halifax account (the supplied app form) seem to have knocked it up a gear now, are they still playing the bluff game?? Yes they are.

 

(incidentally will be sending both "app form not good enough" and the "ft guideline" letters from a few posts back today)

 

 

 

now also in this letter they've offered me £600 discount, payable over 6 months which is nigh on £250 a month

 

would this come under

 

2.6

f. pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments,

or to increase payments when they are unable to do so Depends because as far as I understand you are not making payments in the first place. As you are in "dispute" then you are not confirming they are your "creditor" and you are the "debtor".

 

h. ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are

disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment Yes add it.

 

i think i'm going to add those to my letter

Read between the lines:

 

Costs will be added "if we succeed in obtaining judgement against you". Why was that not worded "once we succeed in obtaining judgement......"??

 

"If" is a very small word but it means a lot.

 

Paragraphs 6 7 and 8 seem to contradict each other.

 

Question for you: Have you ever received any letter from them that was sent registered or recorded post? (Simple Yes or No will suffice).

[nick20045]

no never had any recorded mail on any of our debts we kind of fell off the radar for a few years as we moved 3 times since 04 Do you KNOW that if you had simply just sent the letter back with something like "Not at this address" and not written back to them this year it would have been 6 years and it would have then become statute barred?!!!

 

 

we were making payments then stopped when the account went into dispute Bit confusing. If you "went off the radar" how were you making payments?

 

still send them to the ceo even though i have my very own personal "handling supervisor"

You are so privileged having your own "personal handling supervisor".

 

Check pm.

[nick20045]

Different route:

 

Did you get served with a default notice by halifax? Have you still got it? Have you checked if it is defective?

[nick20045]

By any chance, (have read back a few posts to recall what this is about) did you ever make a cca application?

 

If yes did you get a copy? If NO then maybe you may wish to send a "personal" letter to your "personal advisor" Marcus Butterworth and ask for a copy. Just to remind him that you feel "unloved as he has not written back to you for some time". :D

 

Regarding what was in your original post (before you edited) I would not worry about them. What I am looking for here is a total wipeout of the debt (providing the cards keep falling as they are). ;) Obviously, a total wipeout will mean that not only your original debt is cleared but they are as well.

 

If you get any "love letters" please post so we know what is going on.

[nick20045]

yes i CCA'd them and received an application form and 2 different sets of t&c

 

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/Gee-dub-ya/replies/img022-1-1.jpg

No problem. Can add it to a challenge later on.

this last letter from them crossed my what i would class as my "final word on the subject letter" then in reply to this they got "our" OFT guidlines letter and the definition of an application from one you gave me

You mean they have not replied to you!!!!!!!!! How naughty of them and nasty of them. :D Your own "personal advisor" has not written!!!!!!!! Yo!!!!!!!!! Would that mean "you have been dumped"???????? :D:D

my edited post i put as a seperate thread hoping it wouls get few more replies as thing seem to get lost this far into a thread sometimes

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/242604-difference-defaulted-statements-amount.html

I would not really bother. Read pm.

 

also to note is we have an almost an identical "alleged" debt with capquest same OC same CC in the wifes name but all she'd had is the app form and t&c thats it no big squeeze but it might be get complicated pretty quickly

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/241985-mis-sold-ppi-claimed.html

Do not worry. Most are similar except have to adapt to different information.

so far capquest are denying any payment so we need to speak to halifax direct tomorrow as they've said in a letter it has been credited to the defaulted account.

Do not speak. You write.

 

Tip: Write like a solicitor. You askl, You question. You never confirm or give any information that can be used against you later on. In short, when you write read it and think............ can any of this be used against me later on??? If not then ok. If yes then amend letter.

[nick20045]

Very good. Nice letter. Got some "wrong words" put but very good. Give me a few minutes and I would put an edited version of it (mostly will be the same but some small changes and additions).

[nick20045]

Once again, as said, very impressed. Have a look at this. The reason I have edited a bit is because you have used some wrong words (e.g. you do not call contacting me "conversations" but they are called "communications"). Also have added some more info. Also when writing to a DCA especially when you are in the right you do not ask. You demand. And, the other thing is, if they have failed to send a CCA copy and have written that they cannot send one, then you do not ask for it again.

 

But as you will see, the majority is yours. Good show. Impressed.

 

Dear Sirs

 

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

 

As I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls I am now demanding that all further communication from your company to be made in writing only.

 

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

Please note that if you contact me by telephone, after a formal request not to, you will be in breach of the Wireless Telegraphy Act (1949) and you will have committed an offence under the Communications Act (2003) s.127. Therefore I reserve the right to report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to prosecution and a substantial fine.

 

Be advised that considering I am notifying you that you must not contact me by phone again, then and under the Data Protection Act, you have to remove my telephone number from your records being in whichever way/form it is held and that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded.

 

As a registered debt collection agency you are licensed by the OFT and therefore have promised to abide by guidelines set out by the OFT. Should you fail to abide by the rules and conditions you undertook to obtain your license, I believe it is understood you can be reported to said OFT so that you can be investigated as to whether you are fit to hold said license

 

I refer you to the following from the OFT Guidelines namely:

 

Physical/psychological harassment

2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

f. passing on debtor details to debt management companies without the debtors' informed prior consent

i. failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued

 

k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.

 

Considering section 2.8f, I am now demanding a copy of the letter from the original creditor asking for my consent to have passed my data to your company. Furthermore you must also include a copy of my written response to such a request confirming my authority for my details to be passed onto yourselves. If you fail to supply this, not only will you be in breach of 2.8f above but will also be in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

In respect of the above paragraph, I require your written response including copies of both letters to reach myself in no longer than 14 days. Also as you have advised me by letter on numerous occasions that you cannot obtain a signed executed agreement as I requested under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 the law states this account is in dispute and therefore unenforceable and has been since 19/11/09.

You are to note that you are currently in breach of all the above guidelines. Furthermore, should you be unable to make available the above requested documents within the stipulated time, then you are acting contrary to the terms and conditions you agreed to abide by when applying for your license. Should this be the case then you are to take this letter as a service of a section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and cease and desist from handling my personal data any further. You are also to take notice that you are to cease and desist from contacting me again and failure of this I will be reporting your company to the OFT for investigation.

[nick20045]

I mean, I have got to say......... wow! How about this one. :D

 

As a registered debt collection agency you are licensed by the OFT and therefore have promised to abide by guidelines set out by the OFT. Should you fail to abide by the rules and conditions you undertook to obtain your license, I believe it is understood you can be reported to said OFT so that you can be investigated as to whether you are fit to hold said license

 

:D

[nick20045]

Out of curiousity, you say in the letter that they have written that they cannot send you a copy of the executed agreement. You are sure of this? You have this in writing?

[nick20045]

Good. Nice you to see you are "picking up" and learning to "look after yourself".

 

Now, we move on to a training exercise. Think very hard, put the answers to your wife (or a friend) before you post because I WANT the right answers. I DO NOT want just an answer. You will get ONE shot at this just like as if you were in front of a judge.

 

Q 1: In that letter it says that you are clearly liable because you have been making payments.

 

I want you to challenge as to whether you are still liable or not and why.

 

Q 2: In that letter it says that they can still report you to CRAs. Tell me why you believe they have no right to do this and why.

 

Remember. You will get one shot at answering those two questions. You might think you know the answers BUT I am their solicitor and I am prepared to rip your replies to pieces to prove that you still owe money. So think hard before you reply. Try and imagine what I can say back to you to prove you wrong.

[nick20045]

s40 Admin of justice Act doesn't apply now - superseded

Repealed = Does not apply any more.

Superceeded = Changed by what? How?

 

s40 is still there and is still used by a lot of different agencies. I take it you are referring to this thread????? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/198612-administration-justice-act-cabot.html

 

As it says in that thread, that is the OFT guidance but the OFT does not repeal or superceeds laws. It does not have that power. It can say what it believes should be done and applied. BUT we also know that it is basically just a "wolf with false teeth" as it hardly does anything to control banks and DCAs.

 

Read Administration of Justice Act 1970 (c.31) - Statute Law Database

 

Debt Factsheets - Harassment of people in debt by creditors

 

Administration of Justice Act 1970 - Debt Help UK

 

http://www.payplan.com/debt-library/bailiffs-harassment.php

[nick20045]

Why be gentle? You do not like clicking peoples scales when they help you so I am going to mean.

 

Q1: So a running agreement is a s.77? Because as far as I know a s.77 it is subsection (4) and a s.78 which is for a running agreement is subsection (6) http://www.fisa.co.uk/downloads/CCA%201974.pdf#search=%22%22Consumer%20Credit%20Act%201974%22%20licensing%22

 

Also you have confirmed that although the agreement is unenforceable the debt is still there.

 

This is why you think before you say something.

Q2: Wrong answer. Read the McGuffick judgement. Not supplying a copy of the agreement makes the agreement unenforceable by a court BUT they can still put a default with the CRA.

 

Try again and give a different answer. You have a letter there re your wife where the DCA referred to McGuffick. The question will also answer re your wife. So make it a good answer.

 

McGuffick judgement http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/mcguffick-v-rbs.pdf

 

Find out why he still got the default with the CRA.

Edited January 29, 2010 by nick20045
wrote dispute instead of default

[nick20045]

i'll have a look at the mcguffick stuff tomorrow, need to have an "empty head" few hours and a beer

Go forth Luke our Jedi and may the force be with you.

 

Originally Posted by nick20045

Why be gentle? You do not like clicking peoples scales when they help you so I am going to mean.

 

i've clicked yours before Mean sod! Only once after all the posts I have made giving you guidance and I am trying to teach you how to analyse things and be able to look after yourself.

 

Q1: So a running agreement is a s.77? Because as far as I know a s.77 it is subsection (4) and a s.78 which is for a running agreement is subsection (6) http://www.fisa.co.uk/downloads/CCA%...20licensing%22

 

that was taken from the notice of dispute letter i sent them which was a template, i take it thats why you don't like template letters then?? I have nothing against templates. I have a great problem about people who just use templates and do not know what they are sending.

 

so s77 is fixed sum likes loans and s78 is cards basically Correct.

 

 

this part:

 

shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any)

 

so they could be right that the alleged account may never of had an executed agreement Irrelevant. Once you agree to something then there is an agreement. Some are what is called "Written in stone" and some are called "Written in water". The ones in "stone" are enforceable the ones in "water" are not.

 

Also you have confirmed that although the agreement is unenforceable the debt is still there.

 

 

isn't the debt always going to be there though, just unenforcable, they have statements to show the debt is there No not really. Read the OFT draft guidance and see what is missing. Also read the McGuffick judgement and see what was missing by the bank. It starts with the letter "s". (See unlike you I am a nice person). I even gave you a hint.

 

 

This is why you think before you say something.

Q2: Wrong answer. Read the McGuffick judgement. Not supplying a copy of the agreement makes the agreement unenforceable by a court BUT they can still put a default with the CRA.

 

Try again and give a different answer. You have a letter there re your wife where the DCA referred to McGuffick. The question will also answer re your wife. So make it a good answer.

 

McGuffick judgement http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/jud...fick-v-rbs.pdf

 

Find out why he still got the default with the CRA.

Read the McGuffick judgement and answer me the questions. Come on!!!!!! You know you can do it.

[nick20045]

Once you can work the questions out then after you get the reply re the SAR for your wife you should be able to draft a letter answering the DCAs comments re McGuffick. ;)

 

I am not going to do it for you. You NEED to understand certain things so that IF it was to go to Court you can then know how to answer.

[nick20045]

i have tried :-?

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to nick20045 again.

Mean sod! You mean you do not give anybody else any thanks!!!!!!!

 

Re rest of posts. Up to you. Just trying to show you different routes and arguments you can use.