N.Rock 2002-11-05 £12.9k Unsec Loan - was linked to a together mortgage I had with NR that i have redeemed

[Pipster2797]

Yeah sent it twice, once in Nov and then again in Dec and never heard a thing back.

 

They were also taking the CCA as a complaint as I was going for the CCA being unenforceable by being unreadable.

 

They wrote in the final response about the 2 letters in Nov and Dec they had answered all questions they needed too.

 

However I have had nothing from them

[citizenB]

Is this a secured/unsecured loan ?

 

I dont know if information in post # 13 of the link below might help you at all.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/repossessions/190832-parents-woe-2.html

[Pipster2797]

Its an unsecured loan. I'll have a read of that now

 

The amounts were fine to pay and weren't a problem until I was made redundant. Although I'm back working now I'm on a much reduced salary.

 

It was the way my creditors acted that made my come here and fight back. At times it does get too much but I'm determined to keep this up and fight my corner

[citizenB]

The amounts were fine to pay and weren't a problem until I was made redundant. Although I'm back working now I'm on a much reduced salary.

 

It was the way my creditors acted that made my come here and fight back. At times it does get too much but I'm determined to keep this up and fight my corner

 

Well you will certainly have support and advice here.

 

I think you have to go with the SAR now, ask for everything you can think of. Then see what they send back. You might just find reference to that 2nd DN which would be extremely useful.

[Pipster2797]

SAR is on its way now.

 

Thank You for all the help you have given me and not just over the last couple of days but you have been a hige help on various threads I have started.

 

Its thanks to people like yourself that people like me can fight back.

[citizenB]

[Pipster2797]

Today I have received a formal demand.

 

I have sent the SAR off and just waiting to hear back about that but I did only send it on the 25th March. They signed for it on the 26th and there is a print off of their sig on the royal mail website.

 

What should I do now?

I'm prepared to fight this all the way as that CCA is totally unreadable and they are charging me a rate at its height of around 14% but currently around 9% but the CCA says 5.89%

2009-04-08 NR Formal Demand For Payment £15k.pdf

[citizenB]

All, I can suggest is you send them the following letter. I have amended it to reflect that you have been sent an illegible document. I think they will hold out until the full 40 days before supplying you with the SAR so at the moment, that is of no use to you. It is annoying also that they have failed to supply documents requested via the letter that Martin3030 drafted for you in post 21. Lets see what happens with this one. Send it via Recorded delivery at the very least. It might be worth holding off until late Monday evening, see if anyone else comes up with a better idea.

 

Original to be found in post 58 of Lexis BOS thread

Rewritten by Surfaceagentx20

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re :

 

THIS IS A REQUEST UNDER THE CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE.

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated (whenever), this was received on (whenever) .

 

You have indicated that you will beinstructing solicitors to commence legal action should I fail to make payment within 14 days.

 

You are aware that I have long since requested from you, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act) a copy of the agreement to which you allege I am a signatory. To date all that has been provided is an illegible document. You have endeavoured to persuade me that the provision of a copy of an illegible document is sufficient to discharge the bank from further obligations under section 78 of the Act. Likewise I too have explained that the provision of an illegible document is not a legally permissible substitute for the provision of a true copy of the executed agreement as required under section 78 of the Act and as prescribed by Regulation 3 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

I am sure you are also aware that under section 78(6) of the Act, whilst a creditor is in default of a request made under sub-section (1) they may not enforce the agreement.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing and your persistent, unexplained and wilful refusal to supply a legible copy of the executed agreement in accordance with its obligations (the permitted omissions under Regulation 3(2) excepted), you have made plain your intention to begin legal proceedings against me. In consequence this matter may now be treated as one which is subject to the control of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Take notice therefore that under CPR Practice Direction - Protocols paragraph 4.6(a) and (d), I request that you supply copies of the following documents:

 

[1] A true copy of the executed credit agreement incorporating prescribed notices, terms and conditions applicable at the time the agreement was executed and

[2] Any further or subsequent notices, terms and conditions relied upon.

 

Please note that my request under the Practice Direction is not a request for production within the confines of the Act and Regulations but rather, it is for a copy of the executed agreement, including signatures and all such other notices, terms and conditions as will be relied upon in the event that you shall begin a claim.

 

A copy of the documents I have requested should be supplied to me within 14 days and you are urged not to begin proceedings for a period of not less than 14 days following the supply of those documents to me.

 

Should you elect to ignore my request under the Practice Direction and commence proceedings, it is likely that I shall repeat my request for the provision of documents under CPR 31.14. In the event that you should fail to comply with my CPR 31.14 request, I will not hesitate in making an application to the court for an order that further proceedings upon the claim be stayed pending provision of the requisite documents, in the course of which application I will of course refer to this and previous requests for the provision of copy documents.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the time stated.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

[Pipster2797]

Thanks again. I''ll send that off on Tuesday morning and see if anyone else comes up with anything too.

[Pipster2797]

Right got my SAR today.

 

It opens with a letter saying that:

 

I enclose information which has has been released under section 7 of the Data Protection Act and inculdes all material held electronically by NR.

 

It then starts off with the credit agreement which is still unreadable as in post 1. Its the exact same copy of that agreement.

 

Would they still have the original?

Or are they trying to get it of sending me this by saying as above all material held electronically?

 

Then they have sent me copies of not 1 or even 2 default notices but 3!!

 

The first one is from 1st August 2008 and was sent to a previous address, even though they knew my address.

 

Then again they have sent the default to my current address on the 11th August 2008

 

The 3rd DN they sent me is listed above from the post of 25th March 2009.

 

The rest of the SAR is made up of statements from July 2003, (which has a lower balance than now) and copies of the letters I have sent in and they have sent to me since I started this thread.

 

any ideas about my SAR

 

Can anyone help at all, I'm starting to get worried with NR threating court action

2008-08-11 NR Default Notice Arrears £761.60.pdf 2008-08-01 NR Default Notice Arrears £761.60.pdf

[citizenB]

Hmmm, they are really having problems with their Default notices arent they.

 

They sent the 1st one on 1st August 2008 givieng you until 15th to remedy.

 

Unfortunately that one didnt give sufficient time to rememdy they have to give you 14 clear days. They have not allowed any time for postage.

 

But then they sent you a 2nd one dated 11th August.. that was before the remedy date on the first one had elapsed.

 

Then they send you a 3rd one in March this year. What were the dates on that please ?

 

Did you receive a response to the letter I posted up for you on the 11th April ?

 

TBH, I am not sure where you go from here. However, those 3 Default notices plus the termination of the account whilst the default notices were defective are a pretty good defence.

[toto003]

I hope this isnt a red herring, and I apologise if it is.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html#post1747504

 

v) fixed sum agreements - the total charge for credit, rate of interest and how and when interest is applied (there are some exceptions to this - if payment interval and payment amounts are not both given) and the total amount payable

I don't know what the exceptions are - and perhaps the information set out in the agreement make it an exception

 

... But I cant see;

1) the total charge for credit

2) Total amount payable.

 

either of those two wont be on the back either - (the back just has a long list of T's and C's).

 

If Northern Rock's Template CCA loan forms didn't change between November 2002 and December 2003 - then the following link might help you to read and establish the exact wording.

 

If it is indeed the same - I am sure petebeds will send you a copy of the back if you ask him politely.

 

(I deliberately covered the loan amount)

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ytuput.jpg

 

Can someone please confirm/deny points I made above.

 

Hope this helps

 

toto

Edited May 5, 2009 by toto003

[Pipster2797]

Thank You to both of you for your replies.

 

toto003 that credit agreement is a clear version of the one they sent me but mine is totally unreadable. Surely that in itself has to be unenforceable and if they have a clearer one they would of sent it to me by now. I think the only copy NR have is electronic.

 

The thing that worries me is that they have put in the SAR - all material held electronically by NR. Shouldn't they send everything or should I be writing back asking for everything

[toto003]

To be honest I don't know if a barely legible or illegible agreement is automatically unenforceable or not.

 

Perhaps it is.

 

I am pretty sure that total charge for credit on a fixed sum agreement (loan) is a prescribed term.

 

I also know that I would rather cover as many angles as possible. Just on the off chance they are somehow able to produce a legible agreement.

 

A proper and more qualified assessment may also help others with an identical template to yours and petebeds.

 

EDIT - As for the SAR - if you asked for everything - they are supposed to send everything.

[citizenB]

They are supposed to send everything held in a relevant filing system. I guess that one is open to interpretation. However, if you feel you have been shortchanged and you have some idea of what you think is missing then write and ask them for it.

 

You most certainly should be given access to an agreement that is sufficiently legible for you to be able to assess its validity.

[steven4064]

To summarise:

 

Agreement

 

The copy they sent is virtuall unreadable therefore they have not complied with your request under s77 of the CCA 1974 since para 2 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 says they must provide an easily legible copy.

 

That would make them in default under s77(4) and unable to enforce the agreement

 

I don't believe a court can enforce it because they cannot demonstrate that it contains the prescried terms.

 

Default Notices

 

They have sent 3 and not one of them gives you 14 clear days from the date of service to remedy the default as required by law. The law says that it must be assumed to take 2 days by first class post.

 

DN1 dated 1/8 gives you until the 15/8 - that is only 12 days from service.

DN2 dated 11/8 gives you until the 26/8 - that is only 13 days

DN3 dated 11/3 gives you until the 25/3 - also only 12 days

 

the fact that they sent 3 is just nonesense, since the fact that you didn't remedy the situation after the first must have meant that they closed the account and therefore there was no agreement for you to default for the 2nd or 3rd DN.

 

As the others have pointed out, none of these DNs is valid and they have shot themselves in the foot.

[Pipster2797]

Thank You everyone for the brilliant advice. Its put my mind at ease as the last few months have been such a worry and this being the main one I was worried about.

 

I will now wait for them to either try and take me to court or farm it out to a DCA, which then I know it will be game over.

 

In the mean time I may write to NR to ask for everything they have on me that isn't stored electronically

[toto003]

Hi Steve4064

 

There are quite a few of these NR "template" agreements around, and I was wondering if you would care to offer an opinion based on the petebeds agreement attached. (I realise the defualt notice mistake makes the point "moot" in this particular case)

 

(offtopic): For Agreements over 25k that are executed on regulated paperwork - I have done a guide in posts #22 and #23

here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/178390-credit-agreements-over-25k-2.html

 

could you please take a look at it with a view to adding it to the agreements guide.

 

thanks

 

toto

[steven4064]

toto

 

Can you give a link to peterbed's agreement

 

I have made a comment on agreements >25k on your thread.

[toto003]

Thanks Steve,

 

See post #52 of this thread - (I blanked out the Loan amount of 30k so there wouldnt be any confusion)

 

On the MBNA thread - CitizenB is collating a database of agreements (that will have opinions added) - so that all peoples need to do is find an identical agreement to get a good idea on enforceability etc. I imagine this will eventually happen with all the institutions agreements - as it would make life much easier for everyone.

 

petebeds also has his own thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/153462-eversheds-nr-cc-claim.html

 

(Apologies for hijacking your thread pipster)

[Pipster2797]

not at all were all here to help each other and I'm watching that thread too with interest

[steven4064]

See post #52 of this thread - (I blanked out the Loan amount of 30k so there wouldnt be any confusion)

By '#52', I presume you mean '#50'

 

I looked at the agreement there, although even that is not too easy to read.

 

It doesn't seem to comply with all the requirements of Schedule 1 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983. For example it doesn't give the total charge for credit. It should also be headed "Fixed sum loan agreement regulated....." rather then "Consumer credit agreement regulated...". Therefore it is not properly executed as defined in s61 of the CCA 1974.

 

However, it does seem to have all the requirements of Schedule 6, which would make it enforceable under s127(3).

[Pipster2797]

so part of the act says it would be unenforceable but another part makes it enforceable. I find it hard to follow at times

[Pipster2797]

Just an update

 

Got a lettr today dated 2nd June hwich again looks like a standard automated letter saying that I have 7 days to pay arrears or they may consider instructing solictors.

 

Not sure if I should reply as its getting beyond a joke and they just ignore my letters anyway

[Pipster2797]

nothing to update for almost 2 months now, they seem to have gone quiet and although they were threating court action they haven't carried it through as of yet!!