CCA from Barclays - Advice please

[Etheral]

Hi all,

 

A couple of you might have seen my thread a few weeks back, we've sent off for the CCAs, and have gotten letters back from Barclays.

 

However the agreements they sent back were "Barclaycard Agreement, A copy for you records" stating the terms and conditions. There's no sign of the signitures, dates, etc.

 

So am I correct in assuming that this isn't what they were suppose to provide us with, as it is not a true copy, as requested using the CCA template provided by this website.

 

Could someone advice us what to do next, many thanks.

 

p.s. I can upload the letter we got back and the "agreements" if needed.

 

Etheral

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2009 by Etheral

[paulwlton]

Hi all,

 

A couple of you might have seen my thread a few weeks back, we've sent off for the CCAs, and have gotten letters back from Barclays.

 

However the agreements they sent back were "Barclaycard Agreement, A copy for you records" stating the terms and conditions. There's no sign of the signitures, dates, etc.

 

So am I correct in assuming that this isn't what they were suppose to provide us with, as it is not a true copy, as requested using the CCA template provided by this website.

 

Could someone advice us what to do next, many thanks.

 

p.s. I can upload the letter we got back and the "agreements" if needed.

 

Etheral

 

Could you scan and post up what they've sent?

[Etheral]

Uploaded, we did request a couple of CCAs from Barclays, all of the replies were the same. Some didnt have a copy of the agreement attached.

 

Etheral

[cashins]

What they have sent does not fulfil Sec 78 no matter what waffle they come out with.

 

Up to you what you want to do:

 

If the accounts are already in trouble/defaulted, I would send the Account in Dispute letter and stop paying until such time as they do fulfil your request.

 

David

[Etheral]

Thanks for the replies.

 

However one of the letter states that.

 

"The information we must provide to you under the terms of Section 78 is prescribed by the Consumer Act 1974 and by the Consumer Crdit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. However, Regulation 9 of the 1983 Regulations mentioned above states for accounts opened before 19th May 1985 such as yours, we can send a copy of your current executed Crdit Agreement"

 

Does this mean that the agreement is enforceable? I am a bit confused to be honest. I was under the impression that if they can't provide the orginal agreement that means the Credit Card Agreement isnt enforceable.

 

Secondly for the other agreements such as the one posted in my first post. Do we need to request for a SAR request? or do we simply tell them that they haven't fullfilled the CCA, and that we will no longer be making any more payments? i.e. the template "POSSIBLE Letter when a questionable agreement/application is sent." from this website.

 

Thirdly, should we wait until 12 days (is it working days or calendar days?) have passed until we send off the letter telling them that we will no longer be making any more payments letter?

 

Fourthly, is there anything that we should be aware of before going ahead with the next step? We have kept everything they sent to us, including the envelops.

 

Many thanks again,

 

Etheral

[Alloyz1]

Thanks for the replies.

 

However one of the letter states that.

 

"The information we must provide to you under the terms of Section 78 is prescribed by the Consumer Act 1974 and by the Consumer Crdit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. However, Regulation 9 of the 1983 Regulations mentioned above states for accounts opened before 19th May 1985 such as yours, we can send a copy of your current executed Crdit Agreement"

 

Does this mean that the agreement is enforceable? I am a bit confused to be honest. I was under the impression that if they can't provide the orginal agreement that means the Credit Card Agreement isnt enforceable.

 

Secondly for the other agreements such as the one posted in my first post. Do we need to request for a SAR request? or do we simply tell them that they haven't fullfilled the CCA, and that we will no longer be making any more payments? i.e. the template "POSSIBLE Letter when a questionable agreement/application is sent." from this website.

 

Thirdly, should we wait until 12 days (is it working days or calendar days?) have passed until we send off the letter telling them that we will no longer be making any more payments letter?

 

Fourthly, is there anything that we should be aware of before going ahead with the next step? We have kept everything they sent to us, including the envelops.

 

Many thanks again,

 

Etheral

 

Wait the 12+2 days

 

Send a dispute letter and stop paying

 

Then send them a SAR, something along these lines:

 

Data Protection Act 1998 Subject Access Request

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account number: xxxxxxxx Account in Dispute

 

Please send me the information which I am entitled to under section 7(1) of the Data Protection Act 1998 in relation to detailed occurrences relating to the account Numbers xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx-x

 

The following is by no means an exhaustive list but in the main this is what I require.

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to ALL accounting history with your organisation.

 

Additionally, all records you hold on me relevant to the above accounts, including but not limited to:

 

1. A transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, repayments and payments and both the original amount of the loan and any repayments made to the account.

 

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company

 

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response

 

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notices that you may have sent to me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted.

 

6. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

 

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

8. A genuine copy of any deed of assignment, or proof that you have a legal right to this money.

 

9. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

 

10. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

 

11. A copy of all account statements for the duration of the agreement.

 

12. Please would you also advise me of the logic involved in any automated decisions taken by you about me pursuant to section 7(1) (d) of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

13. A genuine copy of the ‘original’ consumer credit agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit Act of 1974.

 

Any other information relating to the account.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, I shall be reclaiming them, and reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have found to be acceptable.

 

All correspondence must be in writing and all phone calls are recorded.

 

Yours

 

 

See what they send you

[Etheral]

Thanks Alloyz1

 

Can someone clarify this though:

 

"The information we must provide to you under the terms of Section 78 is prescribed by the Consumer Act 1974 and by the Consumer Crdit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. However, Regulation 9 of the 1983 Regulations mentioned above states for accounts opened before 19th May 1985 such as yours, we can send a copy of your current executed Crdit Agreement"

 

I've not seen anything like this on the other threads.

 

I am not 100% sure why we need to send the SAR with the dispute letter, can you explain? Is it purely as a precaution?

 

Thanks,

 

Etheral

[Alloyz1]

Thanks Alloyz1

 

Can someone clarify this though:

 

"The information we must provide to you under the terms of Section 78 is prescribed by the Consumer Act 1974 and by the Consumer Crdit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. However, Regulation 9 of the 1983 Regulations mentioned above states for accounts opened before 19th May 1985 such as yours, we can send a copy of your current executed Crdit Agreement"

 

I've not seen anything like this on the other threads.

 

I am not 100% sure why we need to send the SAR with the dispute letter, can you explain? Is it purely as a precaution?

 

Thanks,

 

Etheral

 

One letter puts it in Dispute

The other is a seperate issue

 

Send in seperate envelopes recorded.

 

Who cares what they mean by that drivel!! a SAR will flush out the original document (if they have it).

[silverfox1961]

Thanks Alloyz1

 

Can someone clarify this though:

 

"The information we must provide to you under the terms of Section 78 is prescribed by the Consumer Act 1974 and by the Consumer Crdit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. However, Regulation 9 of the 1983 Regulations mentioned above states for accounts opened before 19th May 1985 such as yours, we can send a copy of your current executed Crdit Agreement"

 

I've not seen anything like this on the other threads.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Etheral

 

They are technically correct in their statement in that they can omit certain information (signatures, signature box, ) however, the rest of the document MUST be exactly as the original agreement. What the have sent you is their terms and conditions which could apply to just about anybody.

 

The beauty of sending a SAR is that it would get back everything they have and they can't get away with just sending T's&C's. They should include a copy of the original agreement. If they can't supply it (or won't) it's a good sign that they don't have it.

 

hope that helps

 

fox

Edited October 7, 2009 by silverfox1961
spelling

[Alloyz1]

They are technically correct in their statement in that they can omit certain information (signatures, signature box, ) however, the rest of the document MUST be exactly as the original agreement. What the have sent you is their terms and conditions which could apply to just about anybody.

 

The beauty of sending a SAR is that it would get back everything they have and they can't get away with just sending T's&C's. They should include a copy of the original agreement. If they can't supply it (or won't) it's a good sign that they don't have it.

 

hope that helps

 

fox

 

Explained far more elequently than i ever could silverfox!!

[Etheral]

hi silverfox1961

 

So are you saying that they have fulfilled the CCA? or not?

I was under the impression that they have to send you a copy of the original if you request it under the CCA.

 

@Alloyz1, we were hoping to not have to drag this out with the SAR i.e wait another 40 days. My orginal thinking was:

 

1. Send off the CCAs

2. If they don't provide a valid agreement.

3. Send off the account is in dispute letter, stop paying, then perhaps negotiate a final payment with them depending on their reply.

 

I am going by the CCA section 78 (6)

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

So isn't the SAR just used for a peace of mind? i.e. if they do take us to court, and does produce the orginal document there. Isn't it too late? as according to the CCA as we are within our right to cease payment if they don't provide what we asked for under the CCA?

 

Etheral

[Alloyz1]

Under a CCA request, technically they only have to provide you with a copy of the agreement that was executed with you- not the actual agreement...

 

With a SAR, it has to be everything and copies of original doc's...

 

That way you don't get a nasty shock when you turn up to court and they make the world fall out of your bottom (i mean bottom fall out of your worls) by producing the original!!

[silverfox1961]

hi silverfox1961

 

So are you saying that they have fulfilled the CCA? or not?

I was under the impression that they have to send you a copy of the original if you request it under the CCA.

 

Etheral

 

As I see it, no they haven't complied with your request.

 

Now the warnings.

 

If your credit file is ok, Barclays will screw it up if you stop paying (they shouldn't but they will)

If your file is already screwed by Barclays then stopping payments until they comply will make very little difference.

If you stop paying, they will pass the debt onto their in-house threat monkeys and then (possibly) sell the debt to an outside DCA.

 

Have you been defaulted?

Has the account been terminated?

[Etheral]

Have you been defaulted?

No, i.e. we are not behind on payments.

 

Has the account been terminated?

No.

 

So basically Barclays will be able to chase up the payments again once they've found the original agreement (if they have it)?. I was thinking that it was a good sign that they haven't provided us with the orginals with the CCA request.

 

We were going to stop the payments as we basically won't be able to keep up with the payments anymore due to the current economic conditions. But were told by some CAG people that it might be best to do CCA requests first to see where we stand.

 

Are you saying that we have to send SARs off as well to make sure that they really don't have the originals? There are quite a few credit cards, and it would be quite expensive to do it for every single credit card. Although most of it are under Barclays i.e. can we send 1 SAR for all the cards under Barclays?

 

Etheral

[Alloyz1]

Have you been defaulted?

No, i.e. we are not behind on payments.

 

Has the account been terminated?

No.

 

So basically Barclays will be able to chase up the payments again once they've found the original agreement (if they have it)?. I was thinking that it was a good sign that they haven't provided us with the orginals with the CCA request.

 

We were going to stop the payments as we basically won't be able to keep up with the payments anymore due to the current economic conditions. But were told by some CAG people that it might be best to do CCA requests first to see where we stand.

 

Are you saying that we have to send SARs off as well to make sure that they really don't have the originals? There are quite a few credit cards, and it would be quite expensive to do it for every single credit card. Although most of it are under Barclays i.e. can we send 1 SAR for all the cards under Barclays?

 

Etheral

 

 

If they haven't followed the law and could be unenforceable, are the balances high enough to be of significance to you? I suggest they would as you say you won't be able to afford to repay.

 

The opinions are above regarding what you might want to do, only you can decide if its worth doing or not.

[silverfox1961]

For Barclays, ONE SAR is enough although you will have to state all the account numbers as they will try to "miss" some info.

 

Until you absolutely know how you stand with them, I would continue paying. If it is a struggle, you could write to them explaining this and offer lower payments.

As they haven't supplied you with your agreement you can withhold payment but if your credit file is clean, do you really want to ruin it.

 

If you have no choice with your finances, the choice is already made for you.

 

Remember, being in debt isn't a criminal offence. Your essential bills come first and if there isn't enough left to pay your UNSECURED creditors then tough ti**y on them.

 

Im not trying to put you off from using your consumer rights. I just think you ought to know what may happen

 

fox

[Etheral]

Many thanks fox, we do want to know what will happen so we can decide what to do.

 

We'll most likely dispute the account as they haven't provided for us what we asked for under CCA after the 12+2 days have passed, then send off the SAR.

 

If our credit file gets screwed then so be it.

 

Stay tuned! and thanks for all the replies!

 

Etheral