Welscum Finance

[jamesf104]

Hi michfergie, I left a post on what I thought was your thread, look it up because your agreement is crap, the addition is wrong, they've had it! Im sure Im correct. The monthly payment x 48 does not eqaul the total sum, they have added the £1300 in instead of taking it off. I reckon you have paid this debt. Get rid of the PPI totally (Wilson v Hurstanger)

[emmilou1]

the actual maths on the agreement seems ok to me and adds up in my opinion.

[jamesf104]

emmilou1, as I see it the total payable should read = £8338.56 and not £9638.56. 48 x 173.72 does equal £8338.56. Further on down the line it will be only the £9638.56 which will come up and I suspect this is already happening, everything will be bsased on this incorrect figure. Basically they have deducted the £1300 but then added it back in. How can I be wrong here? I am puzzled if I am incorrect.

[emmilou1]

The way they've worked it out on the contract is that the total amount payable (S) £12149.92 consists of the total amount payable for the car (I)£9638.56 plus the total amount payable for the insurances(m) £2511.36

 

(I)9638.56 + (m)£2511.36 =12149.92(s)

 

so (s) is the total amount payable before taking into account any deposit paid by the customer.

 

Then they deduct the deposit and part exchange allowance (D)£1300

 

(s)12149.92 - (D)1300 = £10849.92

 

This amount divided into 48 monthly payments = (J+N)£226.04 which is the monthly payment for the car (J)£173.72 plus the monthly payment for insurances (N)52.32

 

So... (J+N)£226.04 X 48 = 10849.92

 

It's really unclear on the agreement I agree but it does seem to add up.

[jamesf104]

I have gone over this again and I am of the same opinion. The total of 10849.92 I agree is correct but that figure does not appear anywhere on the agreement(s) grand total, the total to pay as far as written is 12149.92, seems as if the 1300 has disappeared. The HP agreement is wrong, the PPI agreement is correct, which puts the sum of the two as incorrect. This agreement is in fact two separate agreements, one for the car HP and the other a restricted use credit agreement to finance the PPI which has nothing to do with the HP agreement, but both regulated by CCA1974. They both even have different APR rates. Working through the HP agreement, cash price was 6591.00 (even this is + £20 according to garage invoice) less 300 cash and 1000 trade in. This gives a figure of 5291.00 as credit needed. Total charge for credit is 3047.56 making a total of 8338.56 to pay (which does equal the payment x 48) and not 9638.56, the 1300 has been added in and should not have been. The contract quotes 9638.56 as the TOTAL AMOUNT PAYABLE! This wrong figure is even confirmed where it is written after a third is paid i.e. 3212.85 ....ect. So they are making michfergie pay the full amount without deducting the 1300. The PPI agreement is correct but consequently the sum of the two agreements is incorrect because of the figures wrongly entered on the HP agreement. You will see that both these agreements are separate and have been signed for separately, they are paid for separately and cannot be mixed together, even though they are paid together as one. The fact that wf have mixed them is I suspect a way of further down the line of not accounting for the deposit and trade in allowance. Going back to the PPI agreement, although the figures add up, the total amount loaned £1407 contains a fee and a commission which has been hidden. Interest is therefore being paid on these hidden fees and commissions. CCA1974 demands that fees and commissions are entered on any agreement as part of the total cost of credit and case law Wilson v Hurstanger, pointed out by postggj, shows that if this is not entered then the PPI becomes rescinded and not payable. Michfergie should now challenge wf on all of this. I am also wondering if the HP interest is calculated on the correct or incorrect total. I would not be suprised if its calculated on £6591.00, but I cannot calculate this, perhaps someone else can.

[emmilou1]

I agree with you however this is how most of welcomes agreements are calculated.

 

Even if you take it as two seperate contracts: one for insurances and one for goods, the sums still add up. The total amount payable literally means the total amount payable before the customer pays a penny (including deposit), this is the amount for the car plus the option fee and acceptance fee and any interest payable on the car.

The monthly repayments are calculated after the deposit and option fee are deducted from the total amount payable. The apr is calculated on this amount. Not the total amount payable.

 

The 1300 has definately been deducted when taking into account the monthly payments. Which was my original point. He has had the deposit and part exchange deducted from his bill. Indeed his statements would also indicate this and would show the opening balance as 10849.92.

 

The one thing that I do find strange about the agreement is the APR. On most of welcomes agreements that i've seen, the APR is shown and the rate of interest on credit per annum.

 

I can't see the rate of interest per annum on here anywhere.

[MICHFERGIE]

Thanks so much just getting a leter typed up ready to go cannot believe that this company is still open thay are going the same way as YES car credit and will all be out of a job soon good luck to bad rubbish

[jamesf104]

michfergie, let us know how you get on. out of interst, what was the figure on your statement at the start?

[MICHFERGIE]

James on what statement not recieved anything for ages

[jamesf104]

by now you should have received a statement detailing every payment made and interest charged, like a bank statement. This started when you took out the loan and continues until it has beed paid. Every payment and charge is listed. At the start it will list the total debt to be paid and it must equal the total figure on your agreement. I asked the question because in my opinion the total to pay on your agreement is not correct, it seems to be a figure which includes the £1300 (deposit and trade in). Nowhere on the agreement can I see the true figure even though the payments x 48 seem to be correct. I have not read all of your posts but have you not sent them an SAR? If so the statement should have been sent with all the other stuff. You should be looking for start figure of 10849.92 and not 12149.92, if its the latter youve been well and truly conned.

[MICHFERGIE]

James just checked the statment and the figure on there is £10849.92 so they have got this figure correct

 

Have just faxed a letter to the welcome finance and challenging the agreement I doubt they will agree but ready to go to court but waiting for them to take me

 

michfergie

 

This has been going on for 4 long years have they not gone out of business yet

[jamesf104]

a point in their favour I guess, but this figure does not appear anywhere on your agreement and I maintain that as these are seperate agreements (PPI is optional and nothing to do with the HP agreement) they should not have been muddled together, in terms of CCA1974 these are paid for seperatly even though for convenience both payments are added together and paid as one, they are still separate. I have noticed on later agreements similar to yours that the HP balance to pay is noted as such followed by the total that will have been paid which includes deposit and trade in. Yours does not show the HP agreement in this way and is confusing as it appears that the £1300 as been deducted and then added back in which gives a completly wrong impression of the true amount to be paid.

[MICHFERGIE]

Hi thanks James I have tried to reason with these idiots but they refuse to listen they seem to know best

I am fed up of them now the Ombudsman PPI dept could not help em so have passed it further up the tree cannot afford a solicitor any ideas what else I could do with these and their no-compliance it seems as this Mr Wakefield is the god at Welcome is there anyone above him""

[jamesf104]

as these are 2 separte contracts, the PPI refund should come off the PPI total and not the total of the 2 contracts. What was the balance when you stopped paying? How many of the 48 payments did you make, I saw somewhere that you had paid a total of £7000. Where is the £3780 coming from? Is that was was left at the point you stopped paying? I am of the firm opinion that the HP agreement, because they have not brought out the balance to pay figure and then deducted the £1300 from the amalgamation of the 2 separte contracts, that they have not conformed to CCA1974. It is clear that the £1300 should have been deducted from the HP agreement to arrive at a total left to pay with interest and number of payments of 48 and that figure should be £8338.56. This figure does not appear anywhere on your agreement. Consequently the amalgamation of the 2 contracts, which is wrong, also shows an incorrect figure. This maybe the way Welcome do this but its wrong because it is totally confusing. I would challenge them on the fact thay they want to take the PPI from the grand total instead of the PPI total and a challenge on the total payable section which should show exactly what is left to pay AFTER YOU HAVE CONTRIBUTED WITH YOUR OWN MONEY. The amount to pay can only be calculated on the credit needed with the applied interest and fee. I still say the the HP agreement does not conform. Is £1700 a bit low for the PPI? Ask them to disclose fees and commissions applicable to this PPI loan because undoubtedly you have paid interest on this without knowing it. You might also insist on knowing who the broker was, after all when dealing with a broker it is in your interest to know what commission and fees are being asked because you might find the same policy somewhere else with lower fees and commission, that is why you must be informed of this. Finally, what about the missing £20?

[MICHFERGIE]

Wow James I think they have well and truely done me

I stopped paying 2 years ago and the balance owed was £3780 I started paying again this year 2 payments because they promised me I only owed £2000 they agreed this at Hull a chap called Steve Verity but this was just lies to get me to pay because they refused to refund the ppi i stopped paying and the PPI refund has never hapened this was 2 years ago I refused to sign a new agreement because of this as I knew this was unenforceable they now want the car back and the full PPI refund of £1700 I have tried to reson with them but they get abgry and start shouting at me down the telephone

 

I know they are gonna be screwed to the ground what would you do

Thanks so much

[postggj]

Hi Mich

 

Give Me A Shortened Update On Whats Happening

So I Can Catch Up

 

NEED TO SEE AGREEMENT

 

SEEMS NOT TO HAVE IT CAN YOU DO A LINK IF NEEDED BY PM OR ON YOUR THREAD

[jamesf104]

Hi Postggj, Mich needs a bit more technical help here than I can give and be sure of. The line on the HP agreement - total payable- is the bone of contention here I think. Payable means owed or to be paid and the sum quoted is not the sum actually owed to be paid, its £1300 less. The £1300 has disappeared (deducted and then added back in), but comes back on in an amalgamation of the 2 contracts, HP and PPI. I maintain that these 2 contracts are separate and should not be mixed. What do you make of it.

[MICHFERGIE]

Hi post did email to your private address I have attached

 

Just faxed them at Welcome and asked the Ombudsman to re-open the file the Ombudsman are not much use they seem to take their side

The slimy devil Mr Wakefield who might I add is horrible wants to take the car and the full £1700 PPI refund and I write the balance off funny that as the local Hull office said If I made payments they would rduce balance to £2000 but Wakefields office say I owe £3780 he is a horrible little man and will not listen to me ghe wants this to go to court and so do I I want ti nail them to the floor now

michfergie:mad:

WELSCOME[1].pdf

[MICHFERGIE]

Thanks guys really apreciate this

[MICHFERGIE]

Post have you managed to look at my agreement as the Ombudsman have now told me he has to go to another Ombudsman to reach a final descision and it may take a while any ideas what they do and how long this may take its taken now over 2 years

 

Thanks

[MICHFERGIE]

Post I know you are really busy but can you please get back to me re the agreement you wanted an update

Thanks

michfergie

[jamesf104]

Mich, without any input from Post I would go back to wf and write stating that these are 2 separate agreements and signed as separate agreements and as the figure for the total payable for the HP agreement is wrong, that agreement has not been properly executed and is therefore unenforcible. (Later agreements I have seen on here do show the correct figures) State also that as they are separate agreements they are paid separately and should not be combined. See what they say, it might just wipe the smile off your Mr Wakefield's face! Dont forget that even the combined figure is wrong too, the £1300 is missing. The correct figure to pay (total of 48 payments) does not appear anywhere on the document. The English dictionary shows payable as to owe, to pay. The figure quoted is not the correct amount owed or to pay. The PPI agreement is correct apart from no commission or fee shown which makes it non payable. This is totally my opinion of course, but our agreement had a wrong addition and they agreed with me not properly executed. Based on this, your HP agreement has a wrong total because it does not take account of the deduction of £1300 in the final payable section, so its wrong. There is no justification for deducting the £1300 and then adding it back in.

[MICHFERGIE]

Hi James here I go thanks so much I am ready to fight WELSCUM

 

michfergie

[jamesf104]

Hi Mich, just interested to see if you have had any luck with the argument I put forth.

[MICHFERGIE]

Hi James I have wrote to tjhe useless notts office had a letetr saying they were looking into this so just waiting

The Ombudsman also are supposed to be getting me a full refund but this may takes ages not sure what will happen now they have gone under

thanks

 

Michelle