Suspended pending investigation thats already happened ?

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

When you say schedule of loss what is this for ? you previously stated that you got a new job straight away ?

 

Beware if you lose the et the company may pursue you for costs etc ?

 

regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

When you say schedule of loss what is this for ? you previously stated that you got a new job straight away ?

 

I got a job quite quickly considering but was still out of work and unpaid for almost 10 weeks etc.

 

Beware if you lose the et the company may pursue you for costs etc ?

 

No they wont as i have repeadtly told you, it's about 1% that have costs awarded against them and normally thats due to the claimant not following procedure and not having a good case. The ones that do gets costs awarded against them most are under £200 aswell.

 

regards

 

You have just stated that the other side mite be doubting their own case by trying to agree things before the case then u state i may have to pay their costs?

Which one is it ?

Edited February 2, 2010 by majik

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

I am just going on my past experiences, that the more aggresive i got the more aggresive my od company got, i put a claim in for costs and loss of earnings, so they then put in for expenses etc, even though i won it still took up a lot of my time, and the money i got certainly did not make up for it.

 

Why was you out of work for 10 weeks unpaid ? i thought you got a job straight away and they would have had to pay you whilst on suspension ???

 

Regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

I am just going on my past experiences, that the more aggresive i got the more aggresive my od company got, i put a claim in for costs and loss of earnings, so they then put in for expenses etc, even though i won it still took up a lot of my time, and the money i got certainly did not make up for it.

 

I have not been aggressive at all with the company, i have my evidence and they have their's my evidence is actualy what they have said/done.

I am not claimng costs im claiming my loss of earning, I have not intentions of claiming my costs and i know that i proabably wouldn't be granted them anyways.

They can only claim costs if my case is bad or im just doing it for money/to damage the company, That is not the case and ACAS has confirmed i could go for a lot more if i was that way inclined and that they feel my case is fair.

 

Maybe you didn't run your case that way and thats why the company put in for costs against you ? As you have not mentioned your case at all i wouldn't know. I would have thought you would have been advised not to claim costs though as they are very rarely awarded.

 

Why was you out of work for 10 weeks unpaid ? i thought you got a job straight away and they would have had to pay you whilst on suspension ???

 

I was paid whilst suspended and it took me around 10 weeks to start my new employment, as my new employer had to go through their interviews etc i think this is a very short time considering we are in a recession ! ACAS agreed that i have done very well to find a new job in same wage range etc in such a short time frame.

 

Regards

 

It has been pointed out to you by myself and some of the HR guru's on here that costs are very unlikely to be awarded yet you still feel the need to continually bring it up etc, i am well aware of the small risk that costs my be awarded but i feel that i have a good enough case to avaoid this and possibly even have costs awarding to myself.

 

I am after advice on the ET process and the like and to date you have been very selective on providing any of your alleged insite into following your own ET case.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Im very confused about this 10 weeks out of work ? in your earlier posts you state that you was sacked some time in october and that you then started your new job on 21st oct 2010 ????

 

Your old company and et will be very thorough in checking this out.

 

Regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

Im very confused about this 10 weeks out of work ? in your earlier posts you state that you was sacked some time in october and that you then started your new job on 21st oct 2010 ????

 

Your old company and et will be very thorough in checking this out.

 

Regards

 

I am delibrately using rough dates so that the company cannot know its me as it would be rather stupid to post the exact dates up now wouldn't it, i know exactly how long i was out of work for and that it what i am claiming

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

So how can we give you advice if you are being very flexible with the facts ????

 

How would your old company know you are even using this website out of the thousands that are on the internet ???

 

 

Regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

So how can we give you advice if you are being very flexible with the facts ????

 

I have asked for advice on how the ET works, for that you do not need to knows dates and so far it is the only thing you haven't managed to talk about.

The dates i have given are correct enough for the advise i need. I have said around 10 weeks loss of earnings, What differance would it make to the advise given if it was 11 weeks or 9 weeks ?

 

How would your old company know you are even using this website out of the thousands that are on the internet ???

 

The company are very sly and i believe that they will be trawling the net, they have already made referance to this site in County Court papers but it was a thread that had nothing to do with me.

 

Regards

 

Please see my comments in red

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

I am purely basing the dates on your blogs and you state that you was only out of work for appx 2 - 3 weeks at the most not 9,10 or 11 weeks ?

 

What was stated in the county court papers ? how did they find out you was using this site ? they must have some really good and thorough managers /spys, lol

 

Regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

I am purely basing the dates on your blogs and you state that you was only out of work for appx 2 - 3 weeks at the most not 9,10 or 11 weeks ?

 

The question you were asked is would you have given different advise if it was 8 weeks or 12 weeks etc ?

I said around 10 weeks I have the exact dates on the ET paperwork and i am only claiming for the exact dates as i have already said.

 

What was stated in the county court papers ? how did they find out you was using this site ? they must have some really good and thorough managers /spys, lol

 

Regards

 

Im not going into the above for obvious reasons lol

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

im not sure there is anything more i can do for you, with all the secrecy and paranoia.

 

I will happily give you advice on the et, as i have done many times in my previous blogs. but i think you should wait till you have there evidence , then you will see exactly what they have and vice versa.

 

Regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

im not sure there is anything more i can do for you, with all the secrecy and paranoia.

 

I am not being secretive or paranoid

 

I will happily give you advice on the et, as i have done many times in my previous blogs. but i think you should wait till you have there evidence , then you will see exactly what they have and vice versa.

 

Regards

 

When was this ? you have asked the ins and outs of the case in detail but as of yet have not managed to explain the process or how an ET works.

[mikeyboy197663]

post #81

They do get the chance to cross examing you, and any witnesses you supply, so you must make sure you are ready for any questions.

Post #84

It is not that i am not keen, it is just you have to realise how serious an ET is.

You have to make sure that you have all the facts and allways tell the truth.

Any slight wrong doing or if your company have anything on you. it will come to light in the meeting. and believe me the employer has allways done there homework and has a mass of evidence and signed documents , and a signed employee handbook.

You have to make sure that you have everything in writing and make sure that you have done nothing wrong, for example the alleged threatning behaviour towards the staff by your other half, they may bring the member of staff as a witness and they will tell the judge how they felt threatned and had to press the panic alarm and involve the police etc.

Post #90

the disciplinary and appeal are about you, the ET judge may look down on this. your ex employer should not be dsclosing anything to your other half about your case ?

 

I could go on, but i have advised you on many occassions, but not sure there is anything i can do till you get the evidence pack and then you can work out what your defence is, if you wish to private message me so your company cant see what you are writing, i am more than happy to advise you.

 

Regards

[majik]

I could go on, but i have advised you on many occassions, but not sure there is anything i can do till you get the evidence pack and then you can work out what your defence is, if you wish to private message me so your company cant see what you are writing, i am more than happy to advise you.

 

Regards

 

That would be a breach of forum rules.

 

Does the CMO go to the ET and other side or just the other side ?

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

The cmo goes to the et and the other side.

 

The private message function is there so you can send private messages, it does not breach the rules , see the faq section.

 

Regards

[majik]

Hi,

 

The cmo goes to the et and the other side.

 

Thanks, why didn't you say earlier ?

 

The private message function is there so you can send private messages, it does not breach the rules , see the faq section.

 

Regards

 

Giving advice by private mesage is against forum rules.

[mariefab]

If the ET3 shows that you were only dismissed for allegation 4 thus making it a one issue claim, you have a pretty strong case, in my opinion.

 

The issue has 2 parts.

1. How did your OH get the code?

The Company's case.

At the disciplinary they asked you how your OH got the code.

You stated that you did not give it to him and produced a statement from your OH saying that he was given a code by a staff member.

They adjourned the disciplinary while they phoned the staff member.

The staff member denied giving your OH the code.

They believed the staff member. You were dismissed.

The staff member subsequently provided a written statement stating that they did not provide your OH with the code.

At the appeal they continued to believe the staff member so the dismissal was upheld.

 

Your case.

You state that you did not provide your OH with the code.

Your OH states that the code was provided by the staff member.

The Company had/has CCTV evidence available that could prove your innocence

The Company has not stated whether CCTV evidence was viewed by them before coming to their decision.

Although your OH has lawfully requested this evidence the Company has failed to provide it to date.

 

2. That, if they had a reasonable belief that you did give your OH the code, this amounts to a breach of security so serious as to amount to Gross Misconduct and that the penalty of dismissal was a reasonable response.

 

After the last few pages of this thread it would be overkill for me to break this down.

Just one point, I seem to remember that much earlier in the thread you said something about your OH being down as authorised for access in case of emergencies? If I have remembered that correctly you might want to add that to your statement when you get to that stage. (Also, if you or the Company has any documentary evidence of this that would be useful.)

 

however the companies solicitor has suggested we agree on a few issues before the ET to help minimise the time spent in ET. I have said im open to the suggestions and will talk more once i have the CMO etc and know what they are going to use.

 

Be very careful indeed here.

 

The role of ACAS is to settle the case before a tribunal. They are not on your side or the Company's side.

The advantages of them settling it are that with a COT3 you can negotiate an agreed reference and save time/stress/inconvenience.

 

The tribunal will look at:

Was the dismissal process procedurally fair?

Did the employer have grounds to hold a reasonable belief that you had committed the offence?

Was the penalty a reasonable response?

How much money should you be awarded to put you in the financial position you would have been in if you hadn't been unfairly dismissed?

[majik]

If the ET3 shows that you were only dismissed for allegation 4 thus making it a one issue claim, you have a pretty strong case, in my opinion. (ET3 Confirms that allegations 1,2 and 3 were upheld following my appeall but allegation 4 was not and i was dismissed for allegation 4.)

 

The issue has 2 parts.

1. How did your OH get the code?

The Company's case.

At the disciplinary they asked you how your OH got the code. (Bone of contention as it is admiteed in both the disciplinary minutes and the appeal minutes that allegation 4 was not dealt with/addressed as part of the disciplinary meeting CEO's words not mine)

You stated that you did not give it to him and produced a statement from your OH saying that he was given a code by a staff member.

They adjourned the disciplinary while they phoned the staff member.

The staff member denied giving your OH the code.

They believed the staff member. You were dismissed.

The staff member subsequently provided a written statement stating that they did not provide your OH with the code.

At the appeal they continued to believe the staff member so the dismissal was upheld.

 

Your case.

You state that you did not provide your OH with the code. (If company followed their own procedure it wouldn't have worked as they should have disabled it at the investigative meeting when they took my keys etc)

Your OH states that the code was provided by the staff member.

The Company had/has CCTV evidence available that could prove your innocence

The Company has not stated whether CCTV evidence was viewed by them before coming to their decision. (The letter to OH from CEO confirms that he has throughly investigated the events on the day and he is of the opinion that no offence occured, I would assume that this would mean he had viewed the CCTV footage and although this is probably more related to the incidents PM and not AM it makes no mentions of it, just states "events on the day")

Although your OH has lawfully requested this evidence the Company has failed to provide it to date. They are now in the process of complying with OH SAR once it was pointed out that the County Court defense was a load of cok and bull and OH provided them with the proof.

 

2. That, if they had a reasonable belief that you did give your OH the code, this amounts to a breach of security so serious as to amount to Gross Misconduct and that the penalty of dismissal was a reasonable response. (This is another thing that im not sure of, they admit that the code was only used to take photo's of CCTV signage, Therefore poses no risk to the company and no malice is intended.)

 

After the last few pages of this thread it would be overkill for me to break this down.

Just one point, I seem to remember that much earlier in the thread you said something about your OH being down as authorised for access in case of emergencies? If I have remembered that correctly you might want to add that to your statement when you get to that stage. (Also, if you or the Company has any documentary evidence of this that would be useful.)

 

OH was listed as a second contact, meaning if they couldn't get hold of me they would contact him etc who could deal with an issue etc, i feel this point alone would be suffient to prove he had full access to site etc.

 

however the companies solicitor has suggested we mite agree on a few issues before the ET to help minimise the time spent in ET. I have said im open to the suggestions and will talk more once i have the CMO etc and know what they are going to use.

 

Be very careful indeed here. I intend too, i will listen to what they have to say if anything.

 

The role of ACAS is to settle the case before a tribunal. They are not on your side or the Company's side.

The advantages of them settling it are that with a COT3 you can negotiate an agreed reference and save time/stress/inconvenience.

 

I have already found a new employer so referance not really relevant anymore however would still like it as part of settlement.

The tribunal will look at:

Was the dismissal process procedurally fair? I can prove that at least 2 members of staff have commited the same acts as i have been accused of and faced no disciplinary action, infact one was promoted to my old job.

Did the employer have grounds to hold a reasonable belief that you had committed the offence? If they followed their own company procedure the offense could not have occured.

Was the penalty a reasonable response? As per above no action taken against 2 other members of staff with same alleged offences so my arguement is not.

How much money should you be awarded to put you in the financial position you would have been in if you hadn't been unfairly dismissed?

 

I have commented in red

 

While i have a guru here could you please answer the following questions:

 

Do i have to send my CMO to both the Other side and ET or just the Other side?

 

Do i have to write witness statements on the CMO, CMO states that they should be exchanged 14 days before hearing and i haven't even written mine yet ?

 

Many thanks for any assistance Mariefab

[mariefab]

I that assume by when you say CMO that it's a Notice of Orders from the Tribunal Chairman.

 

The next stage would usually be the disclosure of documents.

This is where you exchange lists of all the documents that you intend to rely on to support your claim.

You do not have to send this list to the tribunal you just send it to the other side. (I suggest by special delivery.)

 

In case you haven't already done this, I suggest that you number your list of documents e.g.

 

1. Contract of employment

2. Last 3 normal payslips dated ?/?/09 etc.

3. Final payslip dated ?/?/09

4. Letter inviting you to disciplinary dated ?/?/09

5. Email sent before diciplinary refering to allegation 4 dated ?/?/09

6. Copy of OH statement provided at disciplinary

7. Company Disciplinary Procedure documents

Minutes of meetings, requests for CCTV, letters of dismissal and appeal decision........

 

In short every single piece of paper, in your possession, that you may refer to at the Tribunal.

 

The opposition will send you a similar list and you can then request a copy of any document on their list that you don't have and vice versa.

 

Also in the companies downfall where any evidence/documents were shown the company makes no referance in the minutes (typed or hand written) as to what it was, they merely state xx shown a letter or a extract No mention of what it relates to, this has already casused problems as i have asked for a copy of something shown and they state i already have it, i said i dont and they are now not sure what it can be.

If, on receiving their list, you don't find documents to match the above you can still request them quoting the minutes to them to show which documents you mean.

If they repeat that they don't have them or don't know what they are (in writing) this will just make them look worse.

 

You don't include witness statements at this stage. As you say these will be exchanged two weeks before the hearing.

It'll be easier to do your witness statement after the disclosure of documents is completed because you'll have a better idea of their case then and you can refer (highlighted in bold) to the documents in the lists by number to save having to write the whole saga out.

 

The tribunal will look at:

Was the dismissal process procedurally fair? I can prove that at least 2 members of staff have commited the same acts as i have been accused of and faced no disciplinary action, infact one was promoted to my old job.

By procedurally fair I mean; did they invite you to a disciplinary meeting,

inform you of your right to be accompanied by a colleague or union rep, tell you of your right to appeal etc.

 

Did the employer have grounds to hold a reasonable belief that you had committed the offence? If they followed their own company procedure the offense could not have occured.

Their only grounds appears to be the staff members statement.

 

Was the penalty a reasonable response? As per above no action taken against 2 other members of staff with same alleged offences so my arguement is not.

Agreed. But, what I was getting at was, that as any Tom, Dick or Harry can easily gain legitimate access to the area that the code allowed entry to (which you will no doubt explain at length in your later witness statement), it's hard to see how they can say that it was so severe a breach of security as to warrant summary dismissal.

 

 

How much money should you be awarded to put you in the financial position you would have been in if you hadn't been unfairly dismissed

 

You can claim a payment for loss of employment rights (used to be £250), notice pay, untaken holiday pay and the difference between what you have earned on the date of dismissal and the tribunal hearing date.

[majik]

CMO is Case Management Order where we have been asked to provide list of documnets we will be using in date order etc.

 

Im doing my best to comply but as i dont have the CCTV i am unsure whether i need to put it in (undated as not recieved) or not.

 

Procedually fair is in contention as it disputed as to whether allegation 4 was dealt with at disciplinary or not, if it wasn't which company have stated it wasn't twice then no it cant have been as allegation 4 was not addressed until the appeal and i was given no right of appeal to the apopeal (i hope that makes sense)

 

Many thanks for all your help at this ungodly hour, you have helped confirm that i am doing everything as i should be and that i seem to have a good case.

[mariefab]

CMO is Case Management Order where we have been asked to provide list of documnets we will be using in date order etc.

Your list needs to be of documents in your possession now.

 

Im doing my best to comply but as i dont have the CCTV i am unsure whether i need to put it in (undated as not recieved) or not.

If you made a written request for the CCTV put that on your list.

Otherwise, put a copy of your OH's SAR on your list.

[majik]

Ok

 

I will update my CMO later on today

 

I cant request OH SAR, they will refuse under the Data Protection Act, OH will let me use it but as he hasn't had it yet im unsure whether it will turn up before i have to submit.

 

Would i be able to add to the CMO or should i add it and hope it turns up before ET hearing ?

[mariefab]

Sorry if I've been unclear.

 

Your OH wrote to your former employer asking for CCTV evidence.

That letter itself was his Subject Access Request.

 

Put something like, ' Subject Access Request from ..OH's name..to data controller's name dated ?/?/09 ' on your list of documents.

 

That way you will be able to show that the CCTV existed and the Company were aware of it. They will then need to explain why they didn't use it in your case.

 

I just remembered the letter that your OH received stating that no further action would be taken in regard to the events of that day.

Put that letter on your list too.

 

It's possible that the oppositions solicitor's may try to prevent you using these letters on the grounds that they were not addressed to you or some such thing. Their admissability will be for the Tribunal to decide and because one point of view could be that you were dismissed for something that your OH did they could well be allowed.

 

But if you don't put them on your list you may not be able to use the relevance of the CCTV footage at all.

[majik]

Sorry if I've been unclear.

 

Your OH wrote to your former employer asking for CCTV evidence.

That letter itself was his Subject Access Request.

 

Put something like, ' Subject Access Request from ..OH's name..to data controller's name dated ?/?/09 ' on your list of documents.

 

Ok that has now been added

 

That way you will be able to show that the CCTV existed and the Company were aware of it. They will then need to explain why they didn't use it in your case.

 

I wasn't sure whether i could put something down that i dont physically have, thanks for confirming that i can.

 

I just remembered the letter that your OH received stating that no further action would be taken in regard to the events of that day.

Put that letter on your list too.

 

That was already on there lol as i feel this is quite important.

 

It's possible that the oppositions solicitor's may try to prevent you using these letters on the grounds that they were not addressed to you or some such thing. Their admissability will be for the Tribunal to decide and because one point of view could be that you were dismissed for something that your OH did they could well be allowed.

 

I was ready to argue this point, If they can hold me responsible for my OH actions then surely i can use the OH letter confirming that the events did not happen.

 

But if you don't put them on your list you may not be able to use the relevance of the CCTV footage at all.

 

Many thanks for confirming the above, i think my CMO is just about ready now, will email if off 1 day before its due to other side.

[mikeyboy197663]

Hi,

 

Just wondering how your case was coming along ?

 

Im having fun with a used car i bought, but this website is excellent for advice.

 

Regards