2005 Volkswagen polo needs new engine!

[blinky123]

OK just reporting back with an update of what has happened since I last posted.

 

I'm happy to say I have come to an acceptable agreement with VW.

 

Last time I posted, the lady at the customer service department had said she was going to go away and discuss the situation with her manager and get back to me. Well, she got back to me the next day and point blank refused to help me. Her reasoning was that I'd had 1 service out of the network even though all VW approved parts had been used in that service. I got quite upset and explained to her this was not a valid excuse as per the block exemption rules that heliosuk had kindly explained to me before. I told her I was not prepared to accept this and that I would be taking it further. I think she thought I was bluffing and it would be the last she would hear from me - boy was she wrong!

 

Over the next few days and with heliosuk's invaluable help I put together a pretty snotty email and sent it to a few people higher than her in the organisation, and from the next day my complaint was escalated and I was finally being taken seriously. They then agreed to pick up the bill for the removal of the cylinder head to determine exactly what was wrong with it. This was more than I was expecting and was a great surprise. So they removed it and found the problem was indeed what they thought it was, a burnt exhaust valve. There were a few misunderstandings along the way, one being that the lady in the customer service department and not been told that it had been agreed that the cylinder head was to come off at no expense to me by this other lady, which caused a bit of annoyance as I had to forward the confirmation email onto her to prove this. Before she had even been told that the cylinder head was to come off she came back to me (obviously after speaking to her manager again she had been told to offer me something to get me to go away) and said they would offer 30% towards the cost of the parts. "That's a good start - I'll get back to you," I said.

 

So the cylinder head comes off and the diagnosis is confirmed. I then have to wait over a week before getting any sort of answer from VW. I get two or three apologetic answer phone messages telling me they are still looking into my case and will call when they have all the information they need to make a decision. I didn't think it was acceptable to have to wait this long so sent another email to the lady in a higher position and got a telephone call the next day.

 

The outcome is that VW will split the bill with me 50/50. Now, considering they had refused to help me at all in the beginning, to get to this is extremely satisfying. Also, it's worth noting that they completely refused to pay for any diagnostic tests at all yet they removed the cylinder head which the estimated cost of was about £500. So technically they have paid for 2/3 of the total cost of the diagnosis and repair.

 

I know I probably could have pushed for more, but at this point I am desperate to have my car back and this was the goal I had set out for in the beginning so I am extremely happy. (Actually more than I had hoped for as I was expecting to pay at least 50% for the removal of the part).

 

A few words of wisdom for people in my situation:

 

1) Please listen to the extremely knowledgeable guys on here, they give fantastic advice and know what they are talking about (particular shout out here goes to heliosuk who is an absolute legend!)

 

2) Don't give up at the first set back - I spent a few days severely depressed about this when I got my first refusal of help, but considering how things proceeded I found that they have to say no at first as it's protocol. As soon as you convince them you are serious they start to take you more seriously and respect you a bit more.

 

3) This is important - DONT go in with all guns blazing, quoting the SOGA or anything like that - it will just get their backs up and they will not want to help you. Plus, the truth is they are under no obligation to help you. I was nothing but polite and courteous all the way through and I got a far better result this way. It's really just about making them see what is a reasonable solution - what would a reasonable person expect from another reasonable person?

 

Finally, just wanted to say good luck to anyone else in my unfortunate position.

[heliosuk]

Just goes to show blinky, persitance, consideration, thoughtfull argument and courtesy still exist in the UK. I don't think you will have many issues with cars in the future. Enjoy "the baby" as you ought to!

 

Good result in the circumstances. Off to fight Renault with Pycroft now.

 

Keep in touch won't you.

 

Just remember " what would a reasonable person expect from a reasonable person?"

 

XXX

[npuk]

Which engine did your Polo have? We have a 2005 polo 1.4 16v 75bhp which we are told has a burnt engine valve and it has only done 15k.

Edited February 18, 2010 by npuk

[Yorky2008]

well done!

 

What are 'block exemption' rules?

[npuk]

well done!

 

What are 'block exemption' rules?

 

General Advice & Info : Block exemption and the right to repair campaign - The AA

[Yorky2008]

Ta very much!

[blinky123]

Which engine did your Polo have? We have a 2005 polo 1.4 16v 75bhp which we are told has a burnt engine vlave and it has only done 15k.

 

It is a 1.2 but I imagine it's the same problem as VW seem to have an issue with this. Hope you don't have as much of a struggle as I did to get it fixed, but as you can see - you can get them to play ball it just takes a little while!

 

Good luck, hope you manage to get it sorted!

[npuk]

Thanks. Do you happen to still have the letters you sent to VW?

[blinky123]

I'm not sure, I'll have a rummage and get back to you. So what's your story so far? Has it been similar to mine? Have you paid out any money yet?

[npuk]

I will start my own thread with the details. the problem has been found by an independant garage and I havent contacted VW about it yet. All servicing been done at a VW main dealer apart from the last service in Jan 2010 which was done at the independant who advised us of the problem.

[heliosuk]

The "problem" is generally seen on your version of the engine though I understand that the little version like blinkys is starting to appear. I also understand that VW have managed to tie down the issue to an affected range of chassis numbers but I personally haven't seen anything to coroborate this as yet.

 

To get it fixed might be a bit of a lottery depending on the dealer and you might have to pay a few pounds for diagnosis at a VW dealer. The problem only can be fixed by them under goodwill/warranty.

 

There are two fixes for the issue, both very expensive however for some reason VW prefers the cheaper but much higher risk way which invariably ends up costing them more.

 

So for a starter for 10 whereabouts in the UK are you so we can guage if there are any dealers to avoid like the plauge.

 

When you have decided which one to use let us know and I'll give you explicit instructions about what to do and ask as this is very important. In the mean time find any servicing receipts you have as you'll probably need these. Don't volunteer too much info to them at any time. You'll also need to make sure the car is very clean and looks well looked after.

[npuk]

Thanks Helios. I will post my own thread with all the info once I speak to the garage who serviced the car tomorrow as I just need to check a few things.

[blinky123]

One word of advice, don't go to VW Tunbridge Wells if you're in the south! Sounds very similar to my predicament to be honest, I hope you manage to get a result!

[JohnDG13]

What happened in the end?

 

Just starting the whole problem with an 06 1.4 Polo that is running rough and has low compression on no 3 (our of 4) cylinders.

Looks like I will be talking to VW soon!!

Any advice welcome

JohnDG13

[blinky123]

What happened in the end?

 

Just starting the whole problem with an 06 1.4 Polo that is running rough and has low compression on no 3 (our of 4) cylinders.

Looks like I will be talking to VW soon!!

Any advice welcome

JohnDG13

 

Have you read through the whole thread? All the events and how they unfolded are in there including my final resolution with VW. In a nutshell I got them to pay for the diagnostic test to prove the problem, which they refused to do in the first place, then go 50/50 with me on the fix. I had to pay £500 out of a total £1500. Better than I expected. I could've pushed for more but in the end they'd had my car for 2 months and I was desperate to have it back. One thing I will say is that if you have not had your car serviced at a VW garage you will have more of a fight on your hands like I did, but if you can prove your independent garage used equivalent quality parts in servicing, that will be a big plus. Another thing would be to try and bypass the call-centre as they are useless.

 

Good luck!

[JohnDG13]

Thanks Blinky BUt what was the final diagnosis of the problem. VW are denying any problem with their engines BUT seem very keen to investigate my engine before saying if they will make a good will payment.

The young man driving us home after taking the car in to get the process atarted asked if my car was 2004 model - coincidence?

John

[blinky123]

I'm not 100% sure on the diagnosis of the problem, if Helios is still around he should be able to elaborate? But to the best of my knowledge, it was a cracked exhaust valve which lead to a loss of pressure in piston number 3? They tried to get away with rebuilding the head to fix the problem but in the end it needed to be replaced in full.

 

In order to confirm the problem they advised me they would need to remove the head to investigate at a cost to me of about £500?!?! I did have to fight to get them to cover that, just to warn you.

 

If it's the same problem as mine, there is a full warranty on parts only from VW as long as you can prove it was serviced by them in full and the service history is up to date. (Although the labour time to fix the problem stands at about 10-11 hours so I would push them to cover at least half of that as well!) I had to fight this. All serviced on time but I had one out of network service with an independent but they used approved parts.

 

I do hope you get a result from them, has your car been serviced regularly by them? If so I don't think you'll have much of a problem if the issue is the same as mine.

 

Good luck!

[blinky123]

I spoke with Horsham VW today and have to say they were extreamly helpful. In fact it came as a very, very pleasent surprise. It's not often that we read this on the forum and the attitude of this main dealer is another one to be commended. The guys technical knowledge and engineering ability was also quite impressive. On balance they are very supportive of Blinkys claim but obviously are tied by manufacturers guide lines.

 

The upshot is that they have listened to what blinky has had to say and instead of wasting time went straight to a compression test. This showed no 1 as being fine, no 2 within acceptable limits and no 3 on the floor. So carried out the leakage test. No 3 was pretty conclusive to the extent they could feel the leak at the tail pipe (!!) and through the inlet. No 2 not conclusive and no 1 no problem. There was no evidence to support the ring failure theory at this moment in time. Based on their experience they believe the issue is similar if not the same as on the 1.4 16V version which did have issues and a head rebuild/replacement policy is/was in force. On this engine they had premature valve seat wear and the failure mode on Blinkys car is very similar. As they could also hear the leak in the inlet manifold they have suggested a worse case scenario that there is possible crack in the head between the valves though admitted this is highly unlikely. A warning factor though was pointed that if the head was taken off and confirmed to be the fault then they would replace all three sets of valves and seats. The governing factor is that the tolerances on the height of valve to top of the head is only 4 thou and over that means a replacement head. Apparently the official line is poor fuel quality which was pointed out as being a lame excuse as all fuel sold in the EU has to meet a minimum standard which again was unofficially agreed.

 

Horsham were very specific on the repair times allowed as well and had gone into great detail as to the various scenarios. They then on line looked at the goodwill possibilities which came back with a 100% parts contribution. However it needs to have a 100% VW history. I countered this with block exemption rules which was agreed but then it only applies when the vehicle is within warranty period and goodwill is what it is. This somehow seems to defeat the spirit of block exemption. Manufacturers were quick to criticise and object to it but if they standby this goodwill requirement it actually works in their favour.

 

At the end of the day it's going to be VW's call, the dealer is supportive.

 

If I had to be critical of Horsham, then they should have contacted VW customer service on Blinkys behalf and discussed the case coming back with VW's opinion and offer or no offer rather than putting the ball in Blinkys court again.

 

Consequently Blinky is batting it back to VW to take up with Horsham. A missed opportunity by Horsham perhaps especially if VW come up trumps which we hope they will do.

 

Just to end, for info the actual oil control ring problem on this series of engines was burning oil by the bucket load or rather sump!!!

 

 

Here is what the problem was! All rather technical but it's all in there.

[gary1]

New to this site and it has allready given an insight to a problem with daughters 2005 VW 1.2 polo

 

This posting has had over 10000 views suggesting there is a lot of people out there with polo problems

 

The more I look the more I am finding issues with this model of engine, is there a national register of problems with Polo

 

I will probably have a go at the repairs to her car that has only done 40k and misfiring and vibrating suggesting the loss of compression

not helped by VW allready removing 1 of the cylinders lol

 

Strange thing is she bumped a little mazda demio that prior to bump she had no problems with and she had to have a newer car (not the old banger)

that I repaired for £70 in used parts and walked thrugh another MOT and now wants it back lol

[Mighty Minty]

I couldn't believe it when I read your thread.

I am currently having the exact same problem with my 55 reg polo.

 

Same symptoms, same new spark plugs and coil pack, and now I have been told the issue is with my cylinders - two are showing 150 and the third 95 in compression test.

 

I have also been told they cannot replace the cylinders (or appropriate related parts) as it is a 'closed engine' and the only solution is to get a whole new engine! This will cost about as much as the car is worth!

 

As you were, I'm shocked, as the car is only a 55 Reg and has done about 45000 miles. I bought a VW in the hope if would be a reliable car that would go for years.

 

I know your post was back in 2009, but I'd be really interested to find out what happened in the end?

[gary1]

I have done a compression test on my daughters car and 1 cylinder is very low on compression.

 

She has 2 kids and short of cash after christmas so she is running around in mazda demio

 

I have been in touch with a local engine shop and he is seeing a lot of polo's with valve problems rather than piston/rings/bores problems. He has advised me to remove head and he feels sure he can repair it.

 

My daughters car has a full service history but not all VW so I would guess she/we will have to go it alone with parts and labour

 

Very poor design from VW so along with Renault (girlfriend has a Megane) they are both off my I wan't list

[heliosuk]

Most of the Polo issues are now with the head. VW had a campaign to sort the ring problem.

 

However, the head repair is not simple. The valves need to be changed as do the seats and this is where the issue is. The machining limit for replacing the seats is 4 thou. Go over that and the head is a write off. Should be easy for a "good" machine shop to do. Don't forget that measurement includes the grinding in of the valves as well. Go over this and the valves will hold open and misfire will never disapear.

 

Easy repair to do generally apart from the head overhaul.

[gary1]

The engine/cylinder head guy I spoke to and I mentioned the issues with clearances and he says he could grind a small amount of the top of the valve to counter this problem with valve clearance

[heliosuk]

YIKES! The case hardening is microns on the valve stem. You need to remember these are hydraulic tappets as well. Not a good idea at all and by suggesting it makes me wonder if this is the place to get it done.

 

It's ironic isn't it, 30 years ago from the west midlands upwards there would have been hundreds of machine shops that could have done this work, especially in the north east to the standards required but they've all gone now unfortunately. Know who to blame and they are back in power again (ooops......sorry moderators).

 

This is seriously specialised machining and not a run of the mill head overhaul.

[gary1]

Considering VW are basically treating consumers as guinea pigs with more contractual get out clauses than I would know what to do with

 

I think fit for purpose is slipping from VW's ethics even with there expensive R&D department

 

As to offering alternatives to grinding the top of the valve stem, not sure what else to do, not as if I would expect them to remove 5mm

 

As to the last comment with regard to machine shops the company I am talking to have been in business for over 40years that i know off

 

Cut backs in machine shops will largely be due to more reliable cars in general and a crazy institution that thought scraping cars would save the planet

 

I am no financial wizard but even 5 years ago I could see trouble ahead when financial institutions were offering people credit even if you had County court judgements