rosa2009, caught using Mothers Freedom pass.

[danisimo]

please help me!!!

i have the same problem...i was caught using someone else freedom pass around 23 march 2010, and i didn't received anything yet...

at that time i told them my details, address, and they kept the freedom pass(this belongs to someone that is living with me)...

please tell me what should i do in this case?

i have to receive a letter from court? or what?

I WILL HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD????

WHAT SHOULD I DO???

please please help me...please...because i'm like you...i can't sleep at night!!!

[danisimo]

also please tell me what did you do exactly?

you received the letter and after i suppose that you answerd to that, and what happend next: they reply back with the sum that you have to pay? how long it takes until you received that second letter? or you called them? and also, how much time you have to pay that penalty?

AND ALSO WHAT SHOULD I DO - CALL THEM BEFORE I RECEIVE THE LETTER? OR WAIT FOR THAT?

please

thank's

[Old-CodJA]

The first thing I would say is that you really must slow down and take a breath. It might seem very serious, which to some extent it is, but this isn't a life or death matter.

 

Wait until you get the first letter, then you will be sure of knowing who to write to and what action is envisaged against you

 

The rail companies & TfL do take this sort of thing very seriously, but there is no point in reminding them that they can act against you.

 

Wait until they make the next move and then you will be able to decide what you need to do.

[rosa2009]

Hi there,

 

Agree with Old-CodJA. Wait for the letter to arrive, I know you must be really worried but there is not much you can do at this stage.

 

If you are not contacted within 6 months from the date of the incident it is very unlikely that a prosecution will be initiated against you. So it is better to wait, do not contact them.

 

If it is a 1st time offence I can assure you that you will be ok! I am and I was very scared at first, same as you or even worse!

 

Best wishes,

Rosa

[sillybilly1970]

hi just wondering if old-codja would be able to offer me some advice. Just like Rosa2009 My husband was caught using his fathers freedom pass just after xmas. It is totally out of character for him and he knows he has been a fool, he has never done this before. This week he received his court summons for the end of june, he has sent back the form saying that he will be pleading guilty and not attending and he has also sent a letter of what we believe to be mitigating circumstances, these are basically the following, my husband has had the most horrendous last 6 months in June 2009 his beloved mother suddenly died aged 66 and then in mid november his father suddenly became ill and died 3 weeks later (10th December aged 67) so in 5 and half months he lost both his mother and father, leaving him absolutely devasted and in deep shock and not in the right frame of mind, on the day of the offence him and his sisters were returning from the solicitors after the reading of his fathers will. There is absolutely no excuse for what he has done and he accepts that and is more that happy to pay any fine but he is worried about a criminal record, would writing to London underground prosecutions help, can they withdraw the summons or is it too late? I really would appreciate you advice.

[Old-CodJA]

Hi, that does sound like a very stressful time for even the most hardened of us and we are not all hard-hearted despite what some people might think. You're right, your husband's personal circumstances do not negate the legal position, but a well written letter could achieve your desired result

 

No, it is not too late for LUL to withdraw their Summons, but it is a matter for them.

 

If it is the case that he was suffering deep shock as you say, I suggest that your husband goes to see your GP and asks him/her to write a letter confirming that his parents had both died in a very short space of time and that he was badly affected by this. The letter should explain that he was acting irrationally because of stress at the time of the offence. Ask the GP to say that as things are returning to a better balanced mind, the effect of a prosecution and any associated record of conviction might have a disproportionate effect on your husband's continued recovery and ability to work normally.

 

Your husband should also write a separate letter, apologising for his out of character actions and accepting that he did wrong, but that this was not with any pre-meditated intention to avoid any fare and that he cannot give any explanation other than the effect of shock and stress suffered as a result of the recent loss of both his parents.

 

Your husband's letter should ask LUL to allow an administrative disposal of the case rather than proceed to Court and should offer to pay all of the costs incurred by LUL bringing the case to prosecution as well as any unpaid fare.

 

It would also help to undertake never to repeat such an offence and to stress that this was an uncharacteristic, one-off lapse. If your husband has no previous convictions or dealings with the Courts, he should say so.

 

Having got both of these letters done and sent to LUL, copy them to the Legal Advisor at the Court where the Summons has been listed and ask for the letters to be added to the file for the case hearing.

 

There is no guarantee that LUL will withdraw and allow your husband an oppportunity to settle, but they would have to have a very good case not to and if they do continue to prosecution, your husband can show the Court that he has made every effort to deal with his misdemeanour and to atone for his actions.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[danisimo]

Hi there,

 

Agree with Old-CodJA. Wait for the letter to arrive, I know you must be really worried but there is not much you can do at this stage.

 

If you are not contacted within 6 months from the date of the incident it is very unlikely that a prosecution will be initiated against you. So it is better to wait, do not contact them.

 

If it is a 1st time offence I can assure you that you will be ok! I am and I was very scared at first, same as you or even worse!

 

Best wishes,

Rosa

 

thank you for your answer

it's the first and LAST TIME .... but i've used it in 2 days in a row...

what do you meen by "If it is a 1st time offence I can assure you that you will be ok!"? i'' not get a criminal record or the penalty will be lower or what?

what will be the penalty fee that i'll have to pay - AROUND?

what should i do after i receive the letter? call them or what?

if i receive the letter i'll receive the penalty and the criminal record?

PLEASE PLEASE explain a little bit because i really DON'T KNOW ANYTHING !!!!

 

thank you again ...to everybody

[In Rosa We Trust]

Old-CodJA - I would be grateful for some of your excellent advice on the following:

 

I was caught today using my mother's freedom pass by an HMRC inspector.

 

I decided not to deny my guilt, confessed upfront today and didn't cause any fuss. I answered all questions very truthfully as I felt that honesty was better than making up a transparent excuse.

 

After reading this thread I realise, frustratingly, that had I lied, and actually used a feeble excuse I would now be better off, as intent would be placed under question. Instead, it seems in this case that honesty is not the best policy.

 

I'm very concerned about the criminal record and had no idea it was a possible penalty, in fact, strangely, I was told by the HMRC inspector today that the offence would be treated as a civil case. After he questioned me, and I confessed to premeditation and intent his colleague revealed that a criminal record would be a probable outcome.

 

I have spent the last five years of my career in the financial services before losing my job 13 months ago. A Criminal record could mean that I am unable to work in the financial sector in future.

 

Questions:

 

1. Do you think that my honesty and cooperation will work for or against me?

2. Do you think a criminal record is a likely outcome?

 

Advice on next steps

 

1. To contact the prosecution manager for the station in question to negotiate an out of court settlement.

 

2. If this fails, wait for "the letter" from TFL and reply with:

- a reiteration of my confession,

- a sincere apology

- details of my financial situation and unemployment

- the implications of a criminal record for my career

[Old-CodJA]

The most important piece of advice that I can give is actually to WAIT for the letter.

 

Some people may think it best to jump in with an immediate response, but, it does occasionally happen that, because these offices are particularly busy staff do sometimes lose notes or simply don't get around to some reports in good time. I've been involved in these matters for more than 30 years and am a realist. I see this happen from time to time.

 

Why remind them that you have been spoken to and send someone scurrying off to find the report when there is an outside chance that you might not hear anything anyway?

 

If you do get a letter, once correspondence does arrive you will know exactly who is dealing with the case and can address your reply to the right person.

 

Now to your specific queries:

 

In answer to question 1. I have always taken the view that co-operation & honesty once caught should be given credit. The Courts work on the same premise and in my experience most prosecution managers do too.

 

Question 2. A conviction is a likely outcome if this matter proceeds to Court. Whilst there is a record of conviction, this is not often something that makes it to PNC and that is simply because no-one is responsible for collating and uploading the results of these lists. Bichard recommended that such matters should be recorded, but the fact is they rarely are. It is a relatively minor offence in the scheme of criminal matters and so unlikely to affect your employability for most jobs.

 

Advice on next steps:

 

Once you receive the letter, I would reply making your four points and asking if the company will allow you to pay an administrative penalty to dispose of this matter promptly without incurring additional cost to the rail company and allowing you to preserve your good name.

 

You should undertake never to repeat the offence, stating that it occurred as an irrational and out of character one-off response to a difficult financial position and offer to pay the full fare and any reasonable costs that have been incurred by the rail company.

 

If the prosecution manager decides not to accept your offer of remedy, you could then go to Court and plead guilty, but put before the Court the offer that you had made in recognising your guilt. Many Courts will take that into consideration when determining any penalty and may well order a discharge.

[Krissie]

what was the outcome to this?

[honeybunny2010]

Hi, Rosa 2009,

It has been a long time after your incident. Have you settled the case yet? what was the conclusion?

 

Thanks.

[SRPO]

I think the OP got 3 months in prison, but im not sure.....

[honeybunny2010]

are you serious?

[Wriggler7]

I suspect that was a joke in questionable taste. A common trend with these threads is that once the OP has had the benefit of help, and the case is closed, they never darken the CAG dorstep again, and we don't hear the true outcome.

 

During the discussion of 'fare evasion', you will hear reference to 'prison'. The maximum sentence for a second (or subsequent) offence under section 5,3 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is three months 'inside'. Having heard that, please put it to the very furthest back of your mind. I have never heard that sentence handed down for this type of offence.

[honeybunny2010]

Thanks for the clarification. I got caught using my flatmate's student card on my way to work. I have no excuses as others in terms of "intentionally" or " unintentionally" as I didn't have another oyster card with me. The situation was I lost my PAYG card the night before as i normally take bus to work , knowing I have another one in the office, when my flatmate being nice and offered me to use her oyster card just for one-off use, I accepted without a second thought. Sure you know, I was just that unlucky, they took all my details and told me as long as I plea guilty, i will be fine and supposed to pay penalty. This weekend I received the letter from London Underground prosecution team. I was just wondering whether i should just ignore the letter at this stage knowing my reply will be ignored any way and just wait for the court summon at this time or still go through the normal routine, write and beg to settle out of court.

 

Any advice is appreciated and I promise to get back to the forum for outcome at later stage.

[Stigy]

are you serious?

I too imagine that was a joke....jokes/sarcasm don't translate well from "speach" to forums, lol. Smillies help I find...

 

I strongly suggest you do not ignore their latest letter, but respond accordingly. What does their letter say? The best thing you could do is answer all, if any questions in TfL's letter, and put your side of what happened accross to them. It would be worthwhile saying that you deeply regret what happened and it was your first offence (if it was). Also say it will never happen again. It's advisable to offer to compenssate for any reasonable admin costs in order to settle out of court, too. Bear in mind it's never too late to make this offer, even you end up in court. It has been known for defendants to settle with the prosecutor before going in to court, on the day. Sooner the better though! Bear in mind that TfL are under no obligation to settle out of court, but if you offer and they refuse, at least you tried!

 

Good Luck!

Edited November 11, 2010 by Stigy

[honeybunny2010]

Thanks, I will try my best... no matter what, it is a headache...sometimes occasional misjudging is as bad.

[Old-CodJA]

This weekend I received the letter from London Underground prosecution team. I was just wondering whether i should just ignore the letter at this stage knowing my reply will be ignored any way and just wait for the court summon at this time or still go through the normal routine, write and beg to settle out of court.

 

Any advice is appreciated and I promise to get back to the forum for outcome at later stage.

 

NEVER ignore any letter that is sent to you by the prosecutor's office is the best advice I can give.

 

If you acknowledge that you received, but ignored the letter, it may we harden their resolve to prosecute, because they may suggest this further evidence your intent not to pay the proper fare.

 

(How does this sound to you? 'He knew a fare was due, we wrote to him about that, he accepts he got the letter, but admits he ignored our correspondence your Worship.')

 

If you have received a letter that contains claims that you don't agree with, say so.

 

If you accept that you are guilty of an offence then you might wish to write with some explanation and ask if you might be allowed to pay an administrative penalty to dispense with the need for prosecution. The earlier you do this the better your chances of success. (I sure that you can phrase a letter perfectly well yourself, but I've recently provided a template letter on another thread, which might help.)

 

If you are not guilty of the allegation, say so and fight your corner, but make sure that you know exactly what the allegation against you is.

 

.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[rosa2009]

Hi All,

I will finally be able to post the outcome of my situation.

Please note that if you were caught in a bus it is better to check the following website: lostlondonlawstudent

Re my situation, all started in August 2009. In October received TFL’s 1st letter requesting my version of events. After researching online and with the prospects of a criminal record I panicked and decided to instruct a solicitor. à In my case this proved to be a waste of time and money.

The solicitor replied to TFL’s 1st letter. A letter of apology was sent to them plus reference letters, a request to settle the matter out of court and an offer to pay TFL’s costs for opening the case.

NOTE: TFL’s 1st letter only gives 10 days to reply to the letter when by Statute it should give 14 days.

Later in October TFL replied to the solicitor stating that all documents sent were being considered, bla bla bla.

1 week before the 6 months elapsed I received the summons. The solicitor tried to negotiate with TFL once more but they refused to settle out of court.

I also sent them an email and called them several times requesting them to reconsider their decision to prosecute, I was told that the prosecution would continue and was also told not to worry as the conviction would not show up neither on the PNC nor on the Basic or Standard CRB checks but that it would appear on the Enhanced CRB check...

The court hearing was in March 2010, days before I wrote a letter to the judge explaining my situation and pleading guilty.

Don’t know if the letter made any difference but in April I received the notice of fine: £249 including compensation and costs.

I was contacted by many people on this forum who managed to settle out of court and paid between £400 and £800!

My mother received her freedom pass; I thought it was better to apply after the fine had been paid and the case closed. Re the CRB checks I am uncertain of where I stand as I haven’t applied for one.

Please note that before deciding to plead guilty I was given the following options:

1 – Plead not guilty by post and prepare for the hearing.

TFL would have to prove that I travelled without paying the fare and also prove beyond reasonable doubt that I had the intent to avoid payment thereof.

According to the solicitor TFL would only be able to prove that I travelled without paying the fare as it appears that by giving the correct details, i.e. name, address and DOB the intention to avoid payment thereof does not exist. This is also explained at the Crown Prosecution Service’s website.

The statement provided by the inspector that interviewed me was riddled with lies and inaccuracies and I was only cautioned at the end of the interview which is against the law and as such the solicitor suggested that we could request the court for the statement not to be used.

NOTE: When you receive the witness statement read it very carefully and check for any inaccuracies.

On the date of the hearing if I had pleaded not guilty, the inspector would be present and TFL’s prosecutors were going to interview me.

I could take witnesses with me and I/my solicitor could also cross-examine the inspector/witnesses present.

I decided not to follow this route because the solicitor was going to charge me £4000 on top of the £2000 already charged for the letters/emails/phone calls and it was uncertain if I could win the case as the sentencing guidelines at the magistrates’ court are fixed anyway and the fine and punishment would be worse if found guilty after pleading otherwise.

2 – Ignore any correspondence from London Underground, ignore the Summons and wait to receive the notice of fine to take action.

After failing to attend the court hearing, the case would be dealt with in my absence. After receiving the notice of fine I would claim that I had no knowledge of the case and make a Statutory Declaration to that effect.

TFL would then need to start the whole process again.

NOTE: Apparently, this is what repeat offenders do...I am not in favour of this option and you are free to do as you wish bearing in mind the possible consequences of this course of action.

I pleaded guilty by post because at the end of the day I was guilty of using somebody else’s pass and I can honestly say that I was not aware that this was a criminal offence, believe it or not! A simple warning of fine to this effect would prevent me from using the pass again.

As I said in previous posts being punished and fined for my actions was never a problem but I continue to believe that a criminal record for 1st time offenders is too much.

2 weeks ago a man jumped through the barriers, he is a well-known offender in the area, and nobody EVER stops him. I’ve witnessed his behaviour before and he always gives different details and shouts that he will only pay the fare when the service provided by TFL is better (we pay an incredibly expensive fare, have to travel like a can of sardines, have to endure nutters and plus the constant strikes and severe delays...) and as such TFL has to make money out of the people that commit the offence only once out of desperation, etc... but when caught provide the correct details.

Before I finish and post this final note I would like to thank the support (I know these are not the Oscars! ) provided by Scaredsheep, Old-CodJa and the many people that contacted me throughout this difficult time.

Thank you to all the people that sought my advice and bothered to get back to me with the outcome of their cases and thanking me for the free advice provided. It was a pleasure to help you.

To all of you who were naughty naughty and are just starting the process with TFL I know how you must be feeling but believe me when I say that things are not as bad as they seem and that all cases are different, just because I couldn’t reach an out of court settlement it does not mean that you can’t and most important of all IF YOU ARE INNOCENT DON’T GIVE UP AND FIGHT!!

Best wishes,

Rosa

[Wriggler7]

Good to hear the outcome, even if it wasn't exactly a 'good result' for you.

 

There are a few issues in your post that may need expansion.

 

Can a statement be stricken because the caution was given at the wrong time?

 

That gets a 'yes and no' answer.

 

A large part of the 'evidence' is not derived from the question and answers. The statement will or should include much to do with what the Inspector saw, and what he found when examining the Oyster card. He should caution at the point when there is 'evidence' that causes him to think that he is talking to a person who may become a defendant. If he does not, then the 'questions & answers' may not be admissable. If he said something like 'so you knew you were bunking the fare' and recorded your answer as something like 'yes, and I don't care, and you can tell the Magistrates to take a running jump', then I would most certainly want that part of the evidence excluded. If, however, your answer was 'Oh my goodness, what a terrible mistake I have made, I am so sorry', then I wouldn't ask for it to be stricken.

[Wriggler7]

You seem dissappointed with the solicitor you went to. Many of us have said previously that a solicitor may cost more than the potential saving. I think that it would have been useful to know what situations different train companies will always prosecute, or may consider 'settling', and I must confess that I do not 'know the mind' of Tfl. If the case had been prosecuted by my local line, I would have found a moment to have a quiet chat with the prosecutor, and checked if the was a value in asking to settle. I know that they simply will not if there was any suggestion of 'nastiness' on the part of the passenger towards the railway staff. (That doesn't seem to be the case in this instance, I just offer it as an example)

 

I think that when looking for a solicitor to represent you, it might be worth finding out which solicitors 'find' themselves in Court when local railways are in Court. I am sometimes amused when people go to the 'best' London based law firms. I think it is better to go to a small, local, firm. A lot of them will be in and out of the local Magistrates Court, and may well know the railway prosecutor well enough to have a 'quiet chat'. There is no point writing a letter if the prosecutor has already made up his mind and is simply going to plough ahead to Court.

[Wriggler7]

Court staff are not allowed to recommend a solicitor, but, if you 'pop along' to Court before your hearing, and ask the chap on the front desk if the duty solicitor is about, you could end up with the business card and an appointment to see a 'local criminal defence solicitor'. The duty solicitor will explain the he cannot give you advice there and then, but might ask another solicitor who is at the Court for something else to 'have a chat'. They all know that it makes good business sense to give you two or three minutes. And it may well end up with you getting effective representation at a much lower cost than getting 'the best' from Yellow Pages.

 

It is my view that a good solicitor will stick to the point. Is there enough evidence for the prosecution to succeed? If there is, then all the fancy arguments about whether the Inspector had his tie on straight are just window dressing.

 

The first thing to find out is what the 'railway' wants from a particular case. Most will have a list of types of offences where they want a conviction, and those where they are 'not fussed'. They probably also have some sort of list of 'offenders' that they will simply not settle with. And there will always be cases where the prosecutor is not too keen to have his 'witness' examined publicly. (Maybe the Inspector was a bit naughty in a particular case) Those are the sort of issues best found out by 'discussion', and are never properly worked through by high handed letters from expensive solicitors.

 

Somtimes, the railway will 'know' that they can acheive a better financial result by accepting a settlement than by prosecuting a case. It is then for the 'defence' to work out what they want. Is a conviction a serious threat to your life, or does it bother you less than an up front (paid) settlement? It is a sad fact of life that the Courts have collections of regular offenders, and they know that if they are convicted, fines will be deducted from benefits, and will not stop them from carrying on watching Jeremy Kyle all morning until that time of day that they need to go and pinch a can of Tennants from the local supermarket. At the other end os the scale, there are people who have led blameless lives, and suddenly find themselves 'wrong side', for whom simply being in Court is a terrifying experience. I think most prosecutors will see some 'justice' in allowing them to avoid Court.

 

I guess where this is leading is that if you are caught 'wrong side', you need to try to have an effective communication with the railway.

[rosa2009]

Yes, I am very disappointed with the solicitor. He told me he knew a man that worked at the prosecutions department but after I transferred the money to the solicitors' account I received the news that the man was not working there anymore! I am talking about a very famous solicitor that is often seen in the newspapers and on the BBC news. he only deals with huge cases but because I am a friend of a friend he decided to take my case on as a special favour and for a special fee...

I cant stand to look at his face on tv anymore I would never treat my clients the way he treated me, that's something good that I learnt from this experience at least now I know how clients feel when they are in trouble!

 

Re caution the point you raise is correct but it is always up to the judge to decide. In my case the inspector was forcing me to admit my guilt otherwise he would call the police, in the statement he wrote Q & A that were more like a work of fiction, I never admitted guilt but he wrote that I said: yes I had the INTENTION to travel without paying --> I never said such a thing especially with a legal background. and many other things I cannot get into detail in here.

What really upsets me is that if I had dealt with the case by myself I know I could settle the matter out of court, all the ideas I had were rejected by this so-called solicitor that was unwilling to listen to me because he has more than 20 yrs experience while I am just a novice in this area.

I went to another solicitor which only has 5 yrs experience after spending so much money with the 1st solicitor, I explained all my ideas which he agreed with but when I showed him the work of the other idiot, i.e.letters sent, etc he told me straightaway that there was no point in writing to the prosecutions department once more as the other solicitor wrote to them stating that I had commited the offence other times! What type of idiot would do that?!?!? I've got all his lies documented, emails, sms, letters.

and you might be thinking why don't you complain to the SRA? well, because he is a powerful man!

[SRPO]

Be careful with duty solicitors, many are very good but there are some who practise law like ambulance chasers & will always advise a not guilty plea at the first hearing, no matter what the evidence, just so they can get you signed up to the legal aid scheme (if you qualify) or so they can make a chargeable appointment later.

Magistrates will take note of not guilty pleas when deciding discount for any subsequent guilty plea.

 

Basically, leaving it to the last minute is a really bad idea.

[Wriggler7]

Probably just showing my prejudices, but: local solicitors who just get on with the job tend to be better at resolving cases, whereas 'fancy' ones are looking towards the fees. In many threads I suggest that I can argue points in either direction according to who wants 'representation', and a lot of talk can be made over points that simply are not really relevant to the charge. The longer the waffle, the greater the fees. Only time to suggest a complex and demanding defence is before the case starts and the prosecutor is a novice with no stomach for a fight. The best defence solicitors I have watched are often very disinterested in whether the Inspector/policeman/council officer was 'rude' or didn't caution at the right time, but will look for the simple issues, and the absolute 'show stoppers' rather than the nit picky.

 

And a genuine 'local' solicitor probably has already formed a trusting relationship with the regular prosecutors at the local Court. Nothing annoys a prosecutor more than a flashy brief. Threaten an 'abuse of process' argument, and the Prosecutor will get the books out and check his facts. Come in all high and mighty, and the wizened old prosecutor will batten down various legal hatches, mutter things about Corbyn & Saunders and say 'see you at the trial then'. Knowing that very few defendants will have the funds to pay a 'silk' to defend a minor case. The loser? The defendant.