Advice needed on Argos card agents Moorcroft.

[count orlok]

I have an Argos card with about a monkey owing, at the beginning of the year i wrote to them saying due to a change in circumstances i could only pay them a £1 a month, which i started paying. They wrote back saying they would accept £5, so I wrote back saying I could only afford to continue with the payments i was making, and in March I CCAed them. They sent this: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/Argosapplication.jpg and this: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/Argosagreement.jpg and this: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/ArgosTCs1.jpg and this: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/ArgosTCs2.jpg and this: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/ArgosTCs3.jpg and this: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/ArgosTCs2.jpg

 

Then they defaulted me. Here is a copy of the default notice: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt44/loadsindebt/Argosdefault.jpg The default appeared on my credit file on the 13th May. I hear nothing more from Argos.

 

Next i got a letter from Moorcroft's "Pre-School" Division, asking for payment. If I was unable to pay in full I should contact their office within 7 days to avoid possible legal action (all this time I had been making regular payments commensurate with my income). This I duly did by writing to them, I said as they where going to take me to court (why else would they write to me from their pre-court division), could I have sight of the documents they would be relying on in court under CPR. They answered this by sending me the same application form and agreement as shown above.

 

Then i got another letter from their "Pre-School" Division, this time the tone of the letter was very "scary", declaring it as a NOTICE OF INTENDED LITIGATION and making other threats should I not telephone them immediately. Again I answered this by return of post, reminding them I was unable to phone them and reiterating my request to them under CPR. I informed them that I had in fact received 2 copies of the aforementioned documents, and if this was what they would be relying on in court could they please confirm this?

 

Then I get another letter from Moorcroft, not from their "Pre-School" Division, but their accounts department. This letter confirms that they have been in contact with Argos and they have advised them that "the signed agreement and the application form is the same document and at the top it clearly states 'Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.'" (their bad grammer not mine). Not that this was what i asked them for, I asked if they had the original or would they be relying on what they sent me in court?

 

I can only ask them again, and try putting it in a more simple form so that they can maybe understand it. Don't want to give to much away to them though, if they can't do their job I'm certainly not going to do it for them.

Edited August 3, 2009 by count orlok
changed links and added more info

[Alphageek]

I'm sure you know by now that "14 days from the receiving of this notice" undoubtedly makes the default notice defective and would be a pretty good defence.

 

The scans are a little small for me to see, but if all of the prescribed terms are there, then you should use the flawed DN angle.

[count orlok]

are they allowed to keep adding charges after it has been defaulted, all my other creditors have stopped adding to the amount owed after default?

[postggj]

Can You Repost Through Photobucket

Use The Upload Link For Message Boards With Out Thumbnails Option

 

What Charges Are They Adding

Is It Interest Or Charges

[count orlok]

I'll rescan all the docs and add the default letter later today, I'll also rewrite/finish the first post.

[count orlok]

They seem to be adding charges for letters and late payments even though the account seems to have been terminated, although they have not actually said so. Just a thought but, I was under the impression a credit agreement had to be signed by both parties to be valid, and I thought APR and interest figures were different, just that in the documents they sent me they are both quoted as being the same.

[count orlok]

can someone look at the documents linked to in the first post please? I need some advice where to take this.

[count orlok]

bump

[vint1954]

bump

Hi Count,

 

The agreement, assuming it has been signed by you, looks ok.

 

The DN, however should give you a date to rectify by. They have not. Also they have only referred to 14 days from receiving this notice.

 

Have they terminated yet, or requested the ballance in full?

 

Vint

[count orlok]

Not received anything from Argos since the default (the default was the last i heard from them) was put on my CRA. Moorcroft are demanding more than the defaulted amount.

 

The agreement has not been signed by the OC, is it still OK, that is provided they still have the original? I've asked Moorcroft, but they won't answer my questions, just keep saying i owe the money.

 

How do I use the default to my benefit?

 

Cheers

[havinastella]

Right, default notice is faulty as it gives no date to retify. They cannot just say 14 days. If you went to Court you'd be liable for £38 arrears.

 

Moorcroft cannot add a penny to your account, it's in the OFT guidelines somewhere.

 

Charging for debt collection

 

2.9 Charges should not be levied unfairly.

2.10 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express contractual or other legal provision

b. misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there is no contractual provision

c. not giving an indication in credit agreements of the amount of any charges payable on default

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual and necessary costs

e. applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt.

 

 

Jogs

[vint1954]

Not received anything from Argos since the default (the default was the last i heard from them) was put on my CRA. Moorcroft are demanding more than the defaulted amount.

 

The agreement has not been signed by the OC, is it still OK, that is provided they still have the original? I've asked Moorcroft, but they won't answer my questions, just keep saying i owe the money.

 

How do I use the default to my benefit?

 

Cheers

Technically the OC should sign the agreement, but unlikely to make it unenforcable in court.

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

[count orlok]

Thanks for your input guys. Moorcroft have placed the account on hold untill 13th August. Should I say anything to them about the default or should i just carry on paying them £1 a month and stop asking about the CCA?

[vint1954]

No no no no no.......

 

Keep quiet about the DN. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........

 

Wait until they terminate.

[havinastella]

I'd tell Moorcroft to Feck off. They have no right to ask you for money anyways.

 

DON'T mention the default notice to anyone, it's yours to bring up at Court proceedings.

 

Pay the OC the £1 a month.

 

Jogs

[count orlok]

Cheers guys. Have written back to Moorcroft saying that as they threatened court action if i did not phone them or pay in full, and I could not phone them or pay in full, would they let me know what documents they would be relying on in court. I also asked them if they would be using a copy of the CCA or producing the original in court. I've invited them to write back if they do not understand what i am saying.

[count orlok]

Moorcroft; bunch of idiots, just got another letter from them re wife's Argos account, again it from their pre-school division. I think they think we are the ones having trouble understanding plain english, and have sent their last letter with the Caps Lock on; bit like those prats that think by shouting at disabled people they will be more likely to understand. Whereas such action is very condiscending, and letters sent such appear very insulting. this is what the letter says "FURTHER TO YOUR RECENT CORRESPONDENCE, I WRITE TO CONFIRM THAT WE REQUIRE A MONTHLY PAYMENT PROPOSAL YOU CAN AFFORD AND MAINTAIN TO ENABLE US TO ASSIST YOU FURTHER." We are allready making payments that we can maintain although we cannot realy afford them. Perhaps they are sugesting as we cannot afford to pay them we should stop?

 

We never asked them anything to do with the latest letter all we did was ask for disclosure under CPR. Not quite sure how to answer this one perhaps i should spell it out with bullit points and bold underlined capitals?

[Alphageek]

Moorcroft; bunch of idiots, just got another letter from them re wife's Argos account, again it from their pre-school division. I think they think we are the ones having trouble understanding plain english, and have sent their last letter with the Caps Lock on; bit like those prats that think by shouting at disabled people they will be more likely to understand. Whereas such action is very condiscending, and letters sent such appear very insulting. this is what the letter says "FURTHER TO YOUR RECENT CORRESPONDENCE, I WRITE TO CONFIRM THAT WE REQUIRE A MONTHLY PAYMENT PROPOSAL YOU CAN AFFORD AND MAINTAIN TO ENABLE US TO ASSIST YOU FURTHER." We are allready making payments that we can maintain although we cannot realy afford them. Perhaps they are sugesting as we cannot afford to pay them we should stop?

 

We never asked them anything to do with the latest letter all we did was ask for disclosure under CPR. Not quite sure how to answer this one perhaps i should spell it out with bullit points and bold underlined capitals?

 

Red ink as well and don't for get to add this:

 

VALID EVEN IF NOT READ BY YOU

[count orlok]

I notice that Moorcroft are now sending lots of letters you do not have to read. I've had a few and they are confusing me a little,maybe i should ask for clarification in a letter to them. I've tried holding the letter against my head and consentrating, sitting on it, even used it for toilet paper but the only way i can find out what it says is by actually reading it, i know i don't need to do this but they do not give instructions other than to say "even if it is not read by you"?

[Alphageek]

Lol

[Alphageek]

Grind them up and make a tea like drink and read the "tea" leaves?

 

Burn then and read the smoke signals?

[count orlok]

In the end just sent them a letter saying we'd already made them an offer we could maintain but could not afford. Explained CPR request using bullet points. They are the ones who keep putting pre-court in red on their letters so it is not unreasonable to take them as LBAs is it?

[count orlok]

Can't believe this, got another letter from the moorons confirming the aplication form and agreement where the same document and asking for a payment plan i can afford and maintain. Then the next day I got a letter from their legal services telling me to contact Moorcroft giving the address I have been writting to. I checked my credit file and the amount of money it says I own has gone up despite my making regular payments. That is something I will be expressing my concern over when next writing. Should I be mentioneing the police as my payments to Argos are niether being aknowledged or decreasing my balance? I'll definatly be telling them to speed up the litigation process, as i feel this is the only way this can be sorted. I should them be able to get hold of the amount mentioned on the default notice which would avoid a CCJ and get the debt sttled in the eyes of the court.

[count orlok]

I've written to Moorcroft, explaining I am paying, abd questioning the charges on the account. Asking them to confirm Argos are not getting the money so I can cancel the standing order and report it to the authorities.

[count orlok]

just got another letter from Moorcroft, this time from their "Home Collections Division", the amount they are asking for has gone up again. They are still claiming I have not made any payments to them. I am not going to pay them but will continue making token payments to Argos.

 

I will of course be telling them NOT to send anyone round, pointing out that both of us are disabled, one with a heart condition, and the other acute COPD and emphysema.

 

As to the threats of court action BIO (trouble is they will not). That way my payments will be set by the court and they won't be able to say i am not paying. Also I'll put in a counter claim for costs because of their vexatious actions.