CL FINANCE/COHENS v ME - help please**WON**

[henry5]

I have sent them photocopy of passport already and was taking that to court also

[henry5]

cpr sent 1st july 09

 

Re: CL Finance v Darren Rose Case No: xxxxxx

CPR 31.14 Request

 

Court date 20/07/09

 

I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely.

That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignment*

 

3 the default notice*

 

4 the termination notice*

 

5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

thanks again potter is waiting!

[I've got no money]

You did say that you hadn't received the Default Notice didn't you in that case the deemed service rules apply

 

Well the DN is defective - it's dated the 27th July 2007 which is a Friday. If it was sent first class then service is 2 business days after posting (excluding weekends) which would be the 31st July 2007 - the 14 days should start the day after so it should expire on the 14th August not the 11th August. If it was sent second class post it would be served two days later

 

As far as the NoA is concerned they have to prove service...again they're in difficulty

[I've got no money]

here's the info photocopied from yesterdays files sent to me

 

statement there are about 60 pages of them from 2003 until 2008 sorry

 

As far as the statements go - can you tell me, apart from them adding interest - are there any charges for late payment/default/letters/overlimit etc - if so how much have they charged per item

 

The agreement shows that it is a storecard - was it used just for the new kitchen or was it used more than that - if so who used the card?

[I've got no money]

Can you also confirm that the first debit on the first statement is the cost of the kitchen?

 

Once you've given me the info I'll crack on with drafting some suggested docs.

[I've got no money]

cpr sent 1st july 09

 

Re: CL Finance v Darren Rose Case No: xxxxxx

CPR 31.14 Request

 

Court date 20/07/09

 

I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely.

That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignment*

 

3 the default notice*

 

4 the termination notice*

 

5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

thanks again potter is waiting!

 

I'm a bit confused this letter is dated the 1st of July 2009 - is there an earlier letter - in your defence you say that you've made already made a CPR request that hasn't been answered.

 

Can I ask what's happened from the filing of your original defence up to now...

 

The other thing that I'm not clear on is how much you knew about the account - you mentioned that the FOS was involved at one point with missold PPI - so were you treating it, at that stage, as your own or was it a complaint from your ex wife

[I've got no money]

to fill you feb 2008 court papers from cl finance, requested paperwork etc received nothing, the only paperwork i received was a copy of an agreement, had my name on but certainly wasnt signed by me, sent them my passport with sig on as requested and heard nothing from them until feb 2009 more court papers requested info off them in feb received paperwork today even though judge stated in directions 14 days b4 only. can't remember account, renovated a few houses over that period so you can imagine the paperwork. can't find anything at all my end relating to this account, yet they state payments had been made.

 

How did you request paperwork in Feb 08 and Feb 09 - was it by letter - I need to see the letters and to know the precise dates

[henry5]

morning

 

cant confirm that because they have only started the statements in june 05 not 03

[henry5]

I'm a bit confused this letter is dated the 1st of July 2009 - is there an earlier letter - in your defence you say that you've made already made a CPR request that hasn't been answered.

 

Can I ask what's happened from the filing of your original defence up to now...

 

The other thing that I'm not clear on is how much you knew about the account - you mentioned that the FOS was involved at one point with missold PPI - so were you treating it, at that stage, as your own or was it a complaint from your ex wife

 

I threw together about 25 charges and ppi complaints with various companies, obviously as paperwork at time would have had my name on I used mine I would have thought, In fact looking at statements theyve sent me there are loads missing in betweeen also, we received about £440.19 from FOS in dec 06 I think?

 

As for the CPR request Ive messed up there just copied and pasted letter and left it in, didnt send it until 1 july 09, never sent one b4

 

 

from filing my defence

ive sent them a request for info (to cl finance) 22/2/09

 

cpr request 1/7/09

 

sent this to court 13/7/09

 

I write this on 13th July 2009, as yet I have not received any paperwork relating to the case from Howard Cohen, CL Finance or GE Money, even though this has been requested on several occasions. Please refer to attached order dated 19th March para 8, 10 & 13 especially.

 

The House of Lords in the case of Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) made it clear in paragraph 29 of LORD NICHOLLS OF BIRKENHEAD judgment

 

29. The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order. The second type of case concerns failure to comply with the duty to supply a copy of an executed or unexecuted agreement pursuant to sections 62 and 63, or failure to comply with the duty to give

notice of cancellation rights in accordance with section 64(1). Here again, subject to one exception regarding sections 62 and 63, section 127(4) precludes the court from making an enforcement order.

 

Should the claimant not have the documentation required to progress this case I suggest that there will be no case to answer.

 

sent this to court on 14/7

 

Please find attached my statement also copies of letters requesting information off CL Finance and a copy of CPR 31.14 sent to their solicitors Howard Cohen.

 

At the time of writing neither party has sent any informatiion to me.

 

I am due in court on 20th July and feel I will be at a huge disadvantage.

 

Please could you pass this information on to Judge xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Edited July 19, 2009 by henry5

[henry5]

found a pink copy of the original cca b & q homeplan application with 7000 limit attached to it is a B & Q you can do it card application with 300 limit

[I've got no money]

I threw together about 25 charges and ppi complaints with various companies, obviously as paperwork at time would have had my name on I used mine I would have thought, In fact looking at statements theyve sent me there are loads missing in betweeen also, we received about £440.19 from FOS in dec 06 I think?

 

So you knew about the account - did you personally ever use the card

 

As for the CPR request Ive messed up there just copied and pasted letter and left it in, didnt send it until 1 july 09, never sent one b4

 

 

from filing my defence

ive sent them a request for info (to cl finance) 22/2/09

 

have you got a copy of that letter - what did you ask for in it

 

cpr request 1/7/09

 

sent this to court 13/7/09

 

I write this on 13th July 2009, as yet I have not received any paperwork relating to the case from Howard Cohen, CL Finance or GE Money, even though this has been requested on several occasions. Please refer to attached order dated 19th March para 8, 10 & 13 especially.

 

I haven't seen that Order - the only Order I've seen is that Order allocating to track - the page you've posted doesn't appear to have any directions on it - is there another page

 

 

Please find attached my statement also copies of letters requesting information off CL Finance

 

Were any of these letters to CL Finance written BEFORE the case was issued against you - can you post copies of them

.

 

I know that I'm asking for lots of detail and for lots of information but I really need the detail to be able to allow me to produce any sort of meaningful input

[I've got no money]

found a pink copy of the original cca b & q homeplan application with 7000 limit attached to it is a B & Q you can do it card application with 300 limit

 

The one that we are interested in is the Homeplan application with the 7k limit on it

 

Just so that I am clear are you certain that this was the agreement for the kitchen that was completed and signed by your ex in the presence of someone from B & Q and that you were not even there. It is signed on the same date by someone from B & Q

[henry5]

Never went in store and used card no.

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules,

the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement SIGNED BY MYSELF and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with GE Capital

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Please find attached copy of my passport with MY signature on, please don’t show this to third party.

direction p1.pdf

direction p2.pdf

[henry5]

yes signed on 3/6/09 by both parties

[I've got no money]

Does the copy of the CCA that you've found have notice of cancellation rights on it AND does it have the handwritten interest rate information on it...

 

I'm working through a skeleton for you at the moment - I'll post queries as/when they arise

[henry5]

yes it has your right to cancel on back

 

on front it says your right to cancel shall not apply on b&qs premises

 

handwritten inerest rate info also

[I've got no money]

Never went in store and used card no.

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules,

the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement SIGNED BY MYSELF and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with GE Capital

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Please find attached copy of my passport with MY signature on, please don’t show this to third party.

 

Have you filed a witness statement?

[henry5]

this was it

1. I xxxx of am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by C L Finance Ltd

 

2. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

3. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

4. The claimants' particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the nature of the written agreement referred to, the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any default notices issued or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant's claim.

 

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

d) Without fair warning the claimant brought this action in what appears ignorance of the Civil Procedure Rules as required under the Pre-Action Protocols Para 4.3, as no letter before action was received.

 

5. Consequently, it is proving difficult to plead to the particulars of the claim as matters stand, and I put the claimant to strict proof

thereof.

 

The relevant Act of Parliament in this Case

 

6. Firstly I will address the issue of which Act is relevant in this case, in case it is suggested that the claim falls under the Consumer Credit Act 2006, it is drawn to the courts attention that schedule 3, s11 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 prevents s15 repealing s127 (3) of the 1974 Act for agreements made before s15 came into effect. Since the agreement would have commenced prior to the inception of the Consumer Credit Act 2006, section 15 of the 2006 Act has no effect and the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is the relevant act in this case.

 

The Request for Disclosure

 

8. Further to the case, I have requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules 18, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, a transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, alleged repayments by myself and payments made by the original creditor. Also any other documents the Claimant seeks to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a copy of the Notice of Assignment required to give the claimant a legitimate right of action. Accordingly, having failed to produce a credit agreement within the requisite timescale or at all, the Claimant is in default of said request under section 78(6)(a) of The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

9. To Date the claimant has refused my request under the CPR (letter from CL Finance’s solicitor’s Howard Cohen attachment Exhibit C) and I have not received any such documentation requested. As a result it has proven difficult to compose this defence without disclosure of the information requested, especially as I am a Litigant in Person.

 

10. The courts attention is drawn to the fact that the without disclosure of the requested documentation pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules I have not yet had the opportunity to assess if the documentation which the claimant claims to be relying upon to bring this action even contains the prescribed terms required in Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) which was amended by Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI2004/1482).

 

11. The claimant is therefore put to strict proof that such a compliant document exists

 

The Need for a Default notice

 

12. It is neither admitted nor denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant.

 

13. Notwithstanding point 21, I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)

 

14. Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but would also give rise to a potential counterclaim for damages where damage occurs to my credit rating (Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society - [1996] 4 All ER 119)

 

 

Conclusion

 

15. The Defendant denies that there has been any failure to make payment in accordance with the alleged agreement. The Claimant has failed to produce a copy of a credit agreement in the requisite timescale/at all, and in the absence of such an agreement, which conforms to sections 60 and 61 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the Defendant avers that no agreement has ever existed for there to have been any failure to make said payment.

 

16. Without Disclosure of the relevant requested documentation I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable to the claimant, nor am I able to assess if the alleged agreement is properly executed, contain the required prescribed terms, or correct figures to make such an agreement enforceable by virtue of s127 Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

17. In view of the matters pleaded above, I respectfully request that the court gives consideration to whether the claimant's statement of case should be struck out as disclosing no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim, and/or that it fails to comply with CPR Part 16.

 

18. Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in paragraph 8 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.

[henry5]

just noticed on the T & c's they supplied me with pack on fri (to poor quality to scan) they are laid out slightly differently to my original just found ie para 11 is on bottom column 1 yet on original top of column 2. they also havent got a your right to cancel on their photocopy??

[I've got no money]

I've finally finished a skeleton

 

There are things in it that I've underlined and put in bold italics - this is either because you need to insert information that I don't have OR because there are things more generally that I don't know - by that I mean there is a big section on account charges - I don't know if there are any or not - if there aren't any then simply delete the stuff on them if there are then you need to take off the bold and underlining etc and insert the amounts

 

You need to read the skeleton and if you've got any queries ask me - make sure that you understand it

 

For some reason I can't get it to upload to the site

 

I'll try again in a bit - but I'll start on the defence now

[I've got no money]

Done it

 

The skeleton is attached

DarrenRose.doc

[henry5]

that's impressive, will i be expected to understand all that......because i don't???!!!!

[I've got no money]

Unfortunately you need to understand it - which bits don't you understand?

[henry5]

have we not mentioned the noa??

[henry5]

also the handwriting on the cca is of the rep but the signature is my then wife is this important to stress