Attendance notice the clearance of goods.

[mcnulty]

I will try and explain my situation as best I can and would be greatful for any advice given.

 

A couple of months ago I rather stupidly ignored a request from the council regarding payment of council tax as I was in the process of claiming for JSA and thought this would cover it. This request was delayed or denied and I recieved a letter through from a bailiffs firm about two weeks ago. This was then follwed by another a week later on the 4th of June. I tried to get some money together to figure out how to pay this and my brother agreed to help me last week. I initially tried to make payment over the net which wasnt working but told me the debt was at £152 ish I then tried ringing the agency to make payment who told me that was wrong and the fee was actuallly £280 plus. I explained what i had saw literally 5 mins before and he put up quite a lot of resistance and bustle when i advised i could afford to pay that he said he would be round later that day to sieze goods etc. and that the fee wasnt right as their systems hadnt been 'updated' Sure enough I checked not long after the call and the fee he had given me was on.

 

I then started looking on here and eventually managed to pay the council direct the original debt over the phone - £110. The bailiff had been very curt and abraisive (bordering on abusive) with me after calling me several times to see if i had got this £280 plus money available. Once I had spoke to the council I advised him on his next call that the debt was settled and he said I had not paid "the right ammount" I said how do you know? Its showing on our systems what you paid. Ok I said, what does it show is left, he actually said "£140 something" a completely abitrary and made up figure then followed by did you go in and pay it, to which i said no and he then changed his tune saying the full £280 is showing on the system still.

 

He was quite clearly making it up. I said i have paid he countered again saying he would be round later that day etc. After rereading on here i expected that to be the end of the matter. But yesterday a hand delivered letter was posted saying;

 

Total due £168.50

I called today with transportation to remove good. I will return within 48 hours with police assistance if necessary to complete my task. etc etc.

 

My question is what do i do next. The council are happy the debt is paid and satisifed but clearly the bailiff is not.

 

Many thanks for any help given.

Edited June 16, 2009 by mcnulty

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The bailiff cannot levy distress just to recover his fees. He needs to claim them from you by starting a claim in the county court.

 

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid council tax is the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and provides £24.00 for a first visit and £18.00 for a second visit if one is made. No other bailiff's fees can lawfully be charged if a bailiff has not moved your goods in a vehicle and you have not signed any document consenting to a levy or a walking possessions agreement (currently a flat rate of £10).

 

Phone the bailiff on his mobile and ask him for the name of the court that issied his bailiffs certificate and say you will be reporting him for trying to levy for his fees when the liability order has already been settled - and quickly end the call. If he refuses to disclose which court issued his certificate then make a note of the bailiffs comments. Phone the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 and ask which court issued his certificate. Download the complaint form to make an official complaint against the bailiff http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and send the form to the certificating court enclosing supporting evidence such as the bailiffs document showing the bailiffs fees he is trying to charge, any amounts paid and documentary evidence the liability order is settled.

 

To be technical the bailiff commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 because he is overcharging you with his fees and you have a right to make a complaint to police and ask the crime is investigated. Threatening you with police is also an offence, you can seek advice about obtaining a restraining order under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

[mcnulty]

The bailiff cannot levy distress just to recover his fees. He needs to claim them from you by starting a claim in the county court.

 

The law prescribing bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid council tax is the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and provides £24.00 for a first visit and £18.00 for a second visit if one is made. No other bailiff's fees can lawfully be charged if a bailiff has not moved your goods in a vehicle and you have not signed any document consenting to a levy or a walking possessions agreement (currently a flat rate of £10).

 

Phone the bailiff on his mobile and ask him for the name of the court that issied his bailiffs certificate and say you will be reporting him for trying to levy for his fees when the liability order has already been settled - and quickly end the call. If he refuses to disclose which court issued his certificate then make a note of the bailiffs comments. Phone the Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355 and ask which court issued his certificate. Download the complaint form to make an official complaint against the bailiff http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and send the form to the certificating court enclosing supporting evidence such as the bailiffs document showing the bailiffs fees he is trying to charge, any amounts paid and documentary evidence the liability order is settled.

 

To be technical the bailiff commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 because he is overcharging you with his fees and you have a right to make a complaint to police and ask the crime is investigated. Threatening you with police is also an offence, you can seek advice about obtaining a restraining order under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

Thank you very much for your help. I will do what you say. I have seen other people saying to ask for a breakdown of his 'costs or fees' etc. Is this worth doing? What exactly is a levy? I have told my (female) house mate about the situation and am worried they might let them in in my absence what would happen if they did?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

This is my opinion only and differs from other advice given on this forum.

 

There is no point asking for a fee breakdown or a 'screenshot' of an account. The law prescribes what bailiffs can charge in their fees and the original debt is on the Liability Order or Charge Certificate. The bailiff will just bank your £10 cheque. If a bailiff ask you to pay fees that are not compliant with the law then you can file a Form 4 for which there is no charge.

[mcnulty]

This is my opinion only and differs from other advice given on this forum.

 

There is no point asking for a fee breakdown or a 'screenshot' of an account. The law prescribes what bailiffs can charge in their fees and the original debt is on the Liability Order or Charge Certificate. The bailiff will just bank your £10 cheque. If a bailiff ask you to pay fees that are not compliant with the law then you can file a Form 4 for which there is no charge.

 

Ok. Thanks again. Can you explain what a levy is to me please?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

To collect lawful money due or confiscate property as a collateral for that money

[hallowitch]

walking possession order the bailiff Levy on goods in your home, garden furniture/tools or your car

 

if the bailiff has done a levy he must leave the walking possession order on your premises the day the levy is made

[hallowitch]

have a read of this read no 5

 

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

Distress

45.—(1) Where a liability order has been made, the authority which applied for the order may levy the appropriate amount by distress and sale of the goods of the debtor against whom the order was made.

 

 

 

(2) The appropriate amount for the purposes of paragraph (1) is the aggregate of—

• (a) an amount equal to any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made, and
  

• (b) a sum determined in accordance with Schedule 5 in respect of charges connected with the distress.
  

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor.

 

(5) The person levying distress on behalf of an authority shall carry with him the written authorisation of the authority, which he shall show to the debtor if so requested; and he shall hand to the debtor or leave at the premises where the distress is levied a copy of this regulation and Schedule 5 and a memorandum setting out the appropriate amount, and shall hand to the debtor a copy of any close or walking possession agreement entered into.

 

(6) A distress may be made anywhere in England and Wales.

[mcnulty]

have a read of this read no 5

 

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

Distress

45.—(1) Where a liability order has been made, the authority which applied for the order may levy the appropriate amount by distress and sale of the goods of the debtor against whom the order was made.

 

 

 

(2) The appropriate amount for the purposes of paragraph (1) is the aggregate of—

• (a) an amount equal to any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made, and
  

 

• (b) a sum determined in accordance with Schedule 5 in respect of charges connected with the distress.
  

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor.

 

(5) The person levying distress on behalf of an authority shall carry with him the written authorisation of the authority, which he shall show to the debtor if so requested; and he shall hand to the debtor or leave at the premises where the distress is levied a copy of this regulation and Schedule 5 and a memorandum setting out the appropriate amount, and shall hand to the debtor a copy of any close or walking possession agreement entered into.

 

(6) A distress may be made anywhere in England and Wales.

 

 

Ok. I was just wondering exactly what it was as thats when charges seem to escolate. So what would you advise me to do with regards the 168.50 claimed for against a debt which has been settled with the council?

 

I should point out I have no car or garden furniture and all I have recieved is two posted letters and the hand posted one from yesterday which is the first with any kind of figure on it.

[hallowitch]

if you have only had 1 hand posted letter you owe the bailiff £24.50

letter/e-mail to council official complaint unlawful fees added by bailiff

letter /e-mail bailiffs company asking for screenshot of your account as you are making a form4 complaint to the county court about unlawful fees added to your account bailiffs company's don't like to send screen shot so make it clear that if you don't receive this you will still be making the form 4 complaint and will be adding to it that the bailiffs company refused to send a screen shot when requested

 

send both e-mail and letter

 

letter you send to council send copy to bailiffs

 

letter you send bailiffs send copy to council

[mcnulty]

if you have only had 1 hand posted letter you owe the bailiff £24.50

letter/e-mail to council official complaint unlawful fees added by bailiff

letter /e-mail bailiffs company asking for screenshot of your account as you are making a form4 complaint to the county court about unlawful fees added to your account bailiffs company's don't like to send screen shot so make it clear that if you don't receive this you will still be making the form 4 complaint and will be adding to it that the bailiffs company refused to send a screen shot when requested

 

send both e-mail and letter

 

letter you send to council send copy to bailiffs

 

letter you send bailiffs send copy to council

 

This letter came through AFTER the debt was payed. Does that make a difference? Are there any templates of the letters you reccommend out there?

 

Thanks again.

[mcnulty]

Thanks again for your hallowitch and happy contrails.

 

Would still like a couple of questions answered though if you can.

 

Does it make a difference that the first letter I got with any kind of fee on when was hand posted AFTER I had settled the debt? (The other two being deliberately ambiguous and posted through royal mail.)

 

What is the best way of finding out where the £168 figure came from?

 

How do I make a complaint about this bailiff if anything has been done illegaly or immoraly?

 

If he comes to my address again and is let in by my house mate where do I stand?

 

Many thanks.

[hallowitch]

write an official complaint to the council regarding unlawful bailiffs fees

 

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 . For making a visit to premises with a view to levying distress (whether the levy is made or not): first visit £24.50

second visit if necessary £18

they cant charge for letters sent in the post if the

the liability order was paid before any bailiffs visits so there should be no bailiffs fee

there is no way your bailiffs charges should be £168 at the most all they could try to charge you for is £24.50 for the visit after you had paid (working on the fact that the council didn't tell the bailiff that you had paid it although this is not your fault )

letter e-mail to bailiffs asking for break down of charges as you believe there are unlawful charges on your account state that any unlawful charger will result in a form 4 complaint to the county court

 

put a copy of the letter to the bailiffs in your council letter

put a copy of your letter to the council in your bailiffs letter

include copys of any baillifs letters to the council

send both recorded delivery