Mums NatWest Credit Card.

[tom a]

Thanks for the advice so far but here's an update.

 

Mum didn't pay August payment and today September statement arrived showing £12 late payment charge and two months payments owing to be paid by 1st September.

 

What is our next step please ?

[cerberusalert]

It's a stupid game they play, they have already admitted that they do not possess an enforceable agreement, they cannot take any legal action with regards to the a/c.

 

Send them this; http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

 

Technically speaking whilst the a/c is in dispute they cannot add interest, make charges or process data, in reality they will. But because of the lack of agreement they are wasting their time because it will never have to be paid. Eventually the penny will drop with them and they'll either give up or sell the debt to a debt collection company. Don't worry because they can be seen off easily.

[izools]

From a legal standpoint, the bank do not have any legal grounding to add charges, report arrears on her credit report, call or write to her demanding repayment, pass the debt to a DCA or start legal proceedings.

 

From a more realistic standpoint, the bank will add charges, write to her demanding payment, pass the debt to a DCA and if all else fails take her to court.

 

Then you have to show this letter to the judge and with some legal help file a defence regarding the unenforcability of the debt.

 

Or you can take the driving seat and somens Natwest to court yourself requesting that the judge make a ruling persuant to S.174 (I think, others will clarify)... the section that make a declaration of rights and obligations of parties, stating that the debt is unenforcable.

 

In the current climate, and Natwest being a brand of stoney-broke RBS I would expect them to ignore their legal obligations until the bitter end when a judge tells them the two finger salute.

 

My mother is the same, she has a £4,500+ balance with Barclaycard which we know 100% is unenforcable but she bottled out and continued paying as soon as they sent her a statment with a £12 charge. She, too, is far too proud and set in her ways to consider the possibility that there is a better way, she just won't have it.

 

She'd rather pay the debt and just won't admit to herself that it is infact unenforcable.

 

I would imagine that the prospect of court is just far too much for our dear old mothers, eh?

[cerberusalert]

Given that they have admitted that they have no CCA it is highly unlikely that they will attempt court action, but even if they did it could be nipped in the bud.

[tom a]

Mum also banks with Nat West. She has done for the past 30 odd years.

Can they take any money out of her account.

Thanks.

[cerberusalert]

Yes they can offset between a/cs so she should open a seperate account with an unrelated banking group such as the Cooperative Bank. She can do it in-branch straight away if she provides identification + a couple of proofs of address. A basic a/c will include a direct debit/hole in the wall card & Visa Electron.

[izools]

Yes they can offset between a/cs so she should open a seperate account with an unrelated banking group such as the Cooperative Bank. She can do it in-branch straight away if she provides identification + a couple of proofs of address. A basic a/c will include a direct debit/hole in the wall card & Visa Electron.

 

Although having said that if she's not missed any payments in 20 years it's fair to say her credit rating is brilliant.There's no need for her to be demiened (as she may see it) with a basic account, when she will almost certainly be approved for a "Proper" account.Co-Operative may be a good choice, but as long as it isn't any bank under the "RBS" umbrella she won't be affected by "Right of offset".

[cerberusalert]

If she has a good credit rating then yes she should apply for a current a/c.

 

as it isn't any bank under the "RBS" umbrella she won't be affected by "Right of offset".

Yes any bank not related to RBS.

[tom a]

Will speak to her on Saturday, but I don't think she will change banks.

Set in her ways and all that nonesense.

[tom a]

Been to see mum today and there's no way she will change banks.

She's also getting very worried about missing a payment and is seriously thinking about making the next payment and just continuing paying.

Is there anything I can show her on this forum that might make her change her mind.

She still can't grasp that if NatWest have no agreement the debt is unenforceable.

[izools]

I've tried this with my dear mother and believe me... if she is anything like mine, you can try and explain and help and make aware as much as you can tolorate without going totally mad and it still won't make any difference.

 

My mother has quite happily, left herself in a position where she cannot afford to do anything except eat, watch TV, and drive to the shops, to save from defaulting on any credit agreements.

 

I've even proven that one of her biggests debts is unenforcable by doing a CCA and DPA request and finding that the only thing they have with her signiature on it is a tear-off slip from the application form with no T&C, but her opinion is that

 

"Paying the debt is much easier to cope with than dealing with what I'd have to deal with should I try to get out of it"

 

It may be easy for you and I to do all this stuff with letter writing, legal threats, etc etc, but some people just find the whole process stressful in a way you and I can't appreciate.

 

I wish you the best of luck but I fear your effort may be wasted...

[tom a]

Try has I might mum is going to pay this debt.

Her way of thinking is "I've had the money so I must pay it".

What are the chances of getting the interest frozen?

If there is a possibility of this what do I need to put in a letter?

Thanks again.

[izools]

Offer them 1% of the balance per month, in writing, along with a budget sheet showing that this is all your mum can afford. Advise that the payment is non-negotiable, and say that they can avoid having to issue a DN by accepting the offer and freezing the interest.

 

My mother has been paying £50 a month to Barclaycard for the last six years and not been charged a penny interest; balance has come down from over £8000 to about £4500. No default, and no arrears marked on her credit report, "Good" credit score, the account is in an "Arrangment" and the status of the account is still marked as "Paid up on time" on her credit file.

 

They tried increasing her payment to £100 a month, but I CCA'd them and they backed down

 

Other than that not a great deal, other than not paying for three to six months, after which time the account will default and interest will stop being applied.

[tom a]

I think we have decided what to do.

Mum is not sleeping with worry so she is going to pay what she can afford and we are going to make the difference up to the minimum payment.

What's the chances of getting the interest frozen if we do this bearing in mind they have no CCA?

[cerberusalert]

They have already admitted that they cannot provide the agreement & they do not possess one so as I said earlier they cannot take enforcement. This puts your mother in an extremely strong position now, so if she insists on making payment you could try negotiation.

 

Tell them although the alleged debt is legally unenforceable your mother feels morally obliged to make payment. However she will only do so if interest is stopped being added & all unfair charges are deducted from the a/c. Then make an offer of payment she can comfortably and reasonably afford....not the minimum payment they want.

[tom a]

Thanks for the reply.

I've sent off follow up letter to CCA request so will wait and see what reply we get if any and then try to negotiate payments later.

[tom a]

Mum is going to make her payment next week even if we've had no reply from CCA follow up letter.

Just starting to prepare a letter requesting interest to be frozen.

Can someone take a look at this and add or remove as they think ?

I'm not very good at writing letters.

Thanks.

 

 

"Although the alleged debt on the above account is legally unenforceable I feel morally obliged to make payment.

 

However I will only do so if interest is stopped and all unfair charges deducted from the account.

 

I propose to pay £100 a month until the account is cleared.

 

I trust you will carefully consider the above request.

 

 

Yours sincerely "

Edited August 20, 2009 by tom a

[tom a]

Any chance of someone having a look at the letter I propose to send and see if it's sufficient.

Thanks.

[cerberusalert]

I start the offer at half that amount, £50. Which is fifty times more than they are legally entitled to.

[tom a]

Thanks for the reply.

£50 it is.

Still can't get through to her about unenforceable debt mores the pity.

[The GodMother]

have u sent a SAR off?

[tom a]

No. To be honest I think if NatWest sent mum a letter saying don't bother paying she would still be awake all night with worry.

What ever a SAR turned up, it won't alter mums opinion.

Thanks anyway.

[tom a]

Mum received this letter today. It's in response to the Account in Dispute letter I sent.

 

"Dear Mrs xxxx

 

Account Number xxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated 15th August 2009.

 

I write with reference to your recent request under section 78 (1) to supply copies of the original agreement set out under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

We appreciate that under s. 78 (6) of the Consumer Credit Act if you decide not to meet your obligations under the card agreement as they fall due we will be unable to take steps to enforce repayment of the card debt by court action. Nevertheless, we expect you to meet your obligations under the agreement, bearing in mind that the agreement isn't void, and remains valid albeit unenforceable.

 

We do not dispute that the agreement is currently not enforceable so we see no need for any threatened action to obtain a court declaration to that effect.

 

For the avoidance of doubt and as previously advised if you do not make the card repayments as they fall due we will report your default to the Credit Reference Agencies.

 

If you believe that we haven't investigated properly or acted fairly, you have the right to refer to the Financial Ombudsman Sevice. You can do this if we haven't been able to reach an agreement by 12th October 2009, which is eight weeks after you first contacted us. The Ombudsman would then assess whether to check the Bank's own investigation and, if they decided to, would work with you and us to reach a conclusion.

 

I trust this clarifies matters for you.

 

Your sincerely xxxxxx"

 

Will someone take a look at this and explain it in simple English for me.

Mum still has not had a reply asking them to freeze interest.

What's the best course of action to take bearing in mind mum still wants to pay debt back ?

 

Thanks in advance.

[cerberusalert]

They have held their hands up and admitted yet again that they cannot make your mother make any more payments if she chooses not to, then they've played the 'moral card' by stating the debt still exists. They cannot take her to court nor can they obtain any CCJs or warrants for bailiffs to call. They can ask nicely for payment and that's all.

[izools]

They have said that whilst they can ask nicely and report arrears / default notice to the credit reference agencies in respect of not paying the account, they also recognise that they can't enforce the debt through the court.

 

So they might send letters to say payment is late and pay please but that's as far as it would ever go. They would, however, put your mum in a position where she has a very poor credit rating and may use right of offsett to clear the account from her Natwest current account, as they do not need a court order to do these things.