Out of the blue letter from Paragon

[Debt buster]

I have a debt with Paragon that goes back about 14 years to Universal Credit. Basically CAB negotiated reduced payments and no interest, UC agreed, Paragon brought UC and added about £12k interest to a £3k debt and didn't bother telling me. Some time later I found out and started paying £225/month (for about 5 years). Last year I went back to CAB as my balance hadn't reduced. They said to stop paying. That was July 2008. I haven't made any contact with them since.

 

Today out of the blue I received a letter from Paragon which says -

 

I refer to previous communication in connection with the above account.

 

Following a review of the account, i confirm the company is not willing prepared to write off the balance and whilst the account is outstanding it will affect your credit rating.

 

I can confirm the company are prepared to negotiate on the balance by the way of a full and final or capped term offer that you might decide to put forward.

 

If you choose to make an offer please put it in writing.

 

 

This is very strange. I haven't spoken to them since last summer when they called to ask why I had stopped paying. I told them CAB had looked through the paperwork and advised me to stop paying. I also mentioned that they had backed down in court after someone produced the document they sent in 2000 which said they would report the account up to date and consolidate arrears if I signed a standing order. I was told this agreement would have modified the CCA and had some technical errors.

 

I don't have a CCJ, Paragon haven't put anything on my credit record, I have had no threats of court action, no letters, no phone calls, nothing for 10 months.

 

Does this letter make you think they can't legally pursue the debt? It sounds like they want me to make an offer, which I'm not prepared to do as I have already paid well over £16000 on a £3000 debt, and they claim I still owe them £15000.

[cerberusalert]

:eek: They have seen you coming. Send a CCA request http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter to see whether this debt is enforceable, also you will need to send a SAR http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca to begin reclaiming unfair charges.

 

send both request recorded delivery.

[Debt buster]

Oh, and if anyone knows a way to get them off your back for good please tell me.

 

I have a copy of the CCA, unsigned by myself or Paragon, not dated either. CAB said this was probably not enforceable.

[PGH7447]

Send them A sar and get everything back then work out what they have charged

[Debt buster]

:eek: They have seen you coming. Send a CCA request http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter to see whether this debt is enforceable, also you will need to send a SAR http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca to begin reclaiming unfair charges.

 

send both request recorded delivery.

 

Thank you.

 

I haven't done a SAR, but did request the CCA which they sent (well they made one up with my name, no signatures, no dates).

 

This all goes back to when I got into a lot of debt around 1998, I had several debts. A few took CCJ's, a few froze the interest and have since long been paid off. But Paragon did neither, they just hid the interest charges from me. I presume if they could take a CCJ they would have done so by now? It has been 11 years since I broke my agreement and went into default (although they never registered a default against me.

 

I'll send of for the SAR and see what that turns up.

[PGH7447]

I have had dealings with this parasitic company, and finally got shot of them when I sold my house, they are in my consideration an evil little money grubbing firm, that should never have been given a licence to trade in the first place - Rant Over

[Debt buster]

I should also add this is for an unsecured loan.

 

Has anyone successfully argued the case of being kept in the dark over interest being charged? For about 5 or 6 years Paragon added interest at 28% without ever telling me. They continued to accept payments of far less than the interest being charged, pushing me further into debt. They never once told me how much I owed.

 

Reading the forums it seems a few people have won in the courts against Paragon. Since Paragon seem to have no intention of taking me to court (at the moment) that doesn't help me.

 

Should I just continue to ignore them?

[PGH7447]

If you are no longer paying them then either wait until you get the statments and then try and get the interest and charges back or tell them to take you to court.

 

I got my charges back with very little effort, but it was nowhere near what I had paid over the years with little or no headway into the captial, so after 5 years I still effectively owed them what I had borrowed

[Dial Square]

I had a problem with them over interest. I did actually have a ccj with them but they added a lot of interest on top of the ccj balance which they did not inform me of until I requested a balance about 7 years later. I paid the ccj balance and ignored the interest. They then chased for the interest so I wrote a strong letter of complaint pointing out their lack of transparancy and lack of a legal basis (info supplied by CAB) to pursue the additional interest (contractual interest). They responded to my complaint with a letter advising that they were entitled to ask for the interest but as a gesture of goodwill they had closed my account and I had no further obligation. This resulted in them writing off around £10K. How nice of them!

In my opinion, they do not want to show a court how much interest they are charging. Infact, at the rates they charge, if you are paying at a reduced balance you will never pay the balance off as the interest is usually higher than the payments.

They are also basing their right to do this on the fact that there is a clause in the original contract (I also originally had my loan through Universal Credit). However, as they do not seem to be able to provide true copies of cca's going back that far, I can not see how they would be able to quote this in court. If I were you, I would write a letter of complaint (make sure it is headed Official Complaint - Letter 1) and point out their lack of transparancy, how you would never be able to reduce the debt based on the interest charged and that you believe they have had more than enough money to cover the loan plus reasonable interest. I'm no expert but I think they are trying it on.

[42man]

What a shocker !!! I'd like to see the CCA they 'made up' for you (can you scan/photo it and post it up here ? - minus your personal details).....and i'd definitely send a SAR to them.....(which you can find here - http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca Unfortunately a SAR costs £10 (send postal orders if need be and send recorded) they HAVE to send all they hold on you in 40 days....and don't let them default you again as you were probably defaulted for this way back after you got into trouble originally...

 

It may be the case now that they owe you more than you owe them in excessive penalty charges.....!!! They need reporting to the FOS and the OFT....

 

I really can't see a judge allowing this to go through (even if it got to court stage).....

[42man]

It would also fail the unfair relationships test too.....

[Debt buster]

They have taken to phoning me now as well.

 

I just had a call from them. They said "are you willing to make a payment on your account or agree to a full and final settlement"?

 

I said they hadn't produced a valid CCA as it is not dated, signed and neither does it have a total amount payable. They claimed it doesn't matter. I pointed out I had been told by CAB it does matter and the agreement wouldn't be enforceable.

 

They just said they would make a note on my file and that was it.

 

No doubt I'll continue to be pestered by them.

[Debt buster]

Here is the link to the CCA -

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd206/sismile/SCAN0001.jpg

 

I make the total payable as £11962.44. I have paid £15,227 so far since Paragon took over (the debt was about £3500 at that time). Last time I got a balance from them it was in the region of £14,000 still to pay.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Debt buster

[42man]

Unsigned by you ? then uneforceable IMO.

[42man]

If it was me i'd also want to see a FULL portfolio of paperwork....compliant default note, statements for the duration of the agreement, compliant notices of assignment etc...

[42man]

Infact i'd probably even do this too - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

[42man]

You could send them this....(but print your signature don't sign anything)...and you might find this thread interesting too - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/163432-natwest-created-cca-my-2.html

 

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78.

 

I am pleased to see that you confirm this as a true copy of the original agreement executed by yourselves on the XXXXX.

 

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under s65. However, the absence my signature means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under s127(3)"

You had until (date here) to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request and I am therefore advising that the matter is now in dispute . Whilst the matter is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, make any further charges to the account or pass the account to anybody else.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies including any defaults. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 21 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

[paulwlton]

I would also send an SAR.

 

PW

[Debt buster]

Paragon have now taken to calling me every day at 8.30am. I complained it is harassment and they claim the FSA rules allow them to call a couple of times every day while a debt is outstanding, is this correct?

[PGH7447]

Nope send them this

 

Harassment by telephone

 

Account Number: XXXXXXX

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)

I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded. (**Even if you don‘t yet have recording equipment!!**)

 

Yours faithfully,

 

and until they get it say in writing and put the phone down

[Debt buster]

They just called again, 3 and a half hours after the last call. Now that is harassment.

 

Anyway something interesting came up, they admitted they had sent a "reconstructed" credit agreement as they don't have the original. They claim Universal Credit had the original and they no longer exist. They also admitted they can't legally collect the debt but would continue to phone and write to me.

 

They also said they have no intention of taking me to court.

 

But of course non of this stops them selling on the debt which is what they seem to do when it reaches this stage. Then the whole battle starts again with another company.

[cerberusalert]

 

Make a complaint to your local trading standards & the OFT with regards to their harassment and threats, they are in clear breach of OFT guidelines & CPUT;

 

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/DebtCollectionComplaintForm.DOC

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Contact us

 

[email protected]

 

The Office of Fair Trading: Debt collection practices

 

tel: 020 7211 5823

Debt collection guidance - Final guidance on unfair business practices - oft664

[Debt buster]

Complaint made to OFT.

 

The calls continue and Paragon claim they are within FSA & OFT guidlines to call anything up to 3 times a day.

 

Everytime they call it's the same story, they ask for a payment, I tell them to send me the original CCA, they say they sent a copy and don't have the original, I tell them not to expect a payment as the debt is in dispute, they say they will keep calling until I pay. I tell them they are harassing me, they claim it's their right to call every day. I speak to the same person every time and get the same answer.

[itsamomentintime]

They just called again, 3 and a half hours after the last call. Now that is harassment.

 

Anyway something interesting came up, they admitted they had sent a "reconstructed" credit agreement as they don't have the original. They claim Universal Credit had the original and they no longer exist. They also admitted they can't legally collect the debt but would continue to phone and write to me.

 

They also said they have no intention of taking me to court.

 

But of course non of this stops them selling on the debt which is what they seem to do when it reaches this stage. Then the whole battle starts again with another company.

 

nice of them to confirm that

[Debt buster]

This is the complaint to OFT -

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Consumer Protection from unfair trading regulations 2008 (CPUT)

Formal complaint against Paragon Finance for harassment

 

 

I write to complain under the above regulations. I am receiving persistent phone calls from Paragon in respect of a purported debt for which an original Consumer Credit Agreement does not exist.

 

I have asked Paragon to stop telephoning me and to communicate by letter as the calls are interfering me with my family life. Despite this the calls continue. I have logged the calls over the past few days along with a summary of content, I have listed these at the end of the page.

 

Although I agree the DCA are entitled to take reasonable care to pursue a debt if they feel there are outstanding issues, I consider the level of calls to be above what I can reasonably expect.

 

I notice that Paragon are prepared to carry out a campaign of constant harassment rather than bring legal action against me, which in my view is the proper and reasonable course of action. I have raised these issues with Paragon who admit they do not have the original consumer credit agreement and have no intention of stopping the phone calls or taking any legal action.

 

I consider Paragon are operating an unfair commercial practice and this is the reason I am bringing the complaint to you. At Present Paragon are calling me on a daily basis and I think this is totally unreasonable in the circumstances .

 

 

Yours Faithfully

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Recent calls from Paragon -

2nd June 2009, 10.38am (busy so didn’t answer), 10.40am (they called back 2 minutes later).

1st June 2009, 9.43am. Paragon asking for payment, admit they don’t have the CCA , say they will continue to call despite my asking not to, claim they are within the FSA guidelines to call as often as they want.

28th May 2009, 12.02pm. Paragon asking for payment, I asked not be called, they say they will continue to call. I ask why they have called me twice in one day, they say they need payment. I say debt in is dispute and ask they take me to court, they refuse .

28th May 2009, 8.25am. Paragon leave message on answer phone. I call them back, they ask for payment. I tell them account is in dispute. I ask them to write to me instead of calling.

27th May 2009, 10.50am. Paragon call and ask if I would like to make a full and final offer or make a payment. I ask for original CCA, which they say they don’t have.