HSBC CCA Non Compliance

[johnnymitch]

That's a good 'un lee - . T'would be a pity to deprive Ms Packwood of the pleasure of responding ........

[johnnymitch]

Did you send it lee ?

[lee32uk]

Did you send it lee ?

 

 

Yes Not heard anything back as yet though

 

Had another letter last week to say that my SAR will be arriving by courier to my house on Tue 30th June so 1-0 to me on that one lol

[johnnymitch]

Hee -hee ! well done - you stuck to your guns and insisted on home delivery ..........

[lee32uk]

Hi all

 

Well I received my SAR by DHL today in a very large cardboard box. Unfortunately HSBC seem to be a bit confused This is what I asked for, and HSBC's reply is in red:

 

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement/s and any terms and conditions that applied to the account/s at the time of default and at the time the account/s was/were opened. HSBC: Not personal data

 

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company. HSBC: Not applicable

 

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account.

 

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold. HSBC: Not applicable - account still open

 

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account/s, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date/s they were/it was added and deleted. HSBC: Not applicable - a current account - credit card insurance held by seperate data controller

 

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account/s; specifically, the date they were/it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was/charges were calculated, and what the charge/charges cover. HSBC: Not applicable

 

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account/these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. HSBC: Included

 

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

 

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

 

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement/s. HSBC: Included

 

11. Termination notices HSBC: Not applicable

 

 

The SAR was for my credit card, and this was the only account reference included in my request......so why do they mention a current account in point number 5 above????

 

HSBC have decided not to send a copy of the credit agreement as it isn't personal data?????.

 

They have also not sent a copy of the default notice and termination letter, as they say the account is still open (LOL what a bunch of muppets)

 

They have also not sent any details relating to ppi insurance which I had on my Credit card (Now cancelled).

 

Well if they think they have complied with my SAR then they are wrong Looks like I will have to send them a LBA giving them 14 days.

[johnnymitch]

Looks like you will have to lee , that is a pathetic excuse for a satisfactory SAR ...

 

They're doing this more and more these days, I don't know whether they are thick or clever - or think we're thick . -

 

Maybe you should copy their letter and your reply to the Information Commissioner's Office and ask them for asistance to get what you want out of HSBC . Some of those replies on there are ridiculous ........

 

This is from the Data protection Page of the ICO's site :

 

Enforcement

 

The ICO has legal powers to ensure that organisations comply with the requirements of the Data Protection Act. It is important to note that these powers are focused on ensuring that organisations meet the obligations of the Act.

Data Protection Act (DPA) 1998, data protection policy - ICO

(Exactly what you want I think ? )

[Castlebest]

Hiya Lee as Johnny says this is stupid but it does raise a few interesting questions (my comments in blue)

 

Hi all

 

Well I received my SAR by DHL today in a very large cardboard box. Unfortunately HSBC seem to be a bit confused This is what I asked for, and HSBC's reply is in red:

 

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement/s and any terms and conditions that applied to the account/s at the time of default and at the time the account/s was/were opened. HSBC: Not personal data

this is about as personal as it gets

 

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company. HSBC: Not applicable

Well at least they cant suddenly produce something later, they have confirmed there is none by this statement.

 

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account.

 

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and default notices or enforcement notice that you sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold. HSBC: Not applicable - account still open

this is just a lie

 

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account/s, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date/s they were/it was added and deleted. HSBC: Not applicable - a current account - credit card insurance held by separate data controller

Now this is interesting, HSBC have always maintained that they only have one data controller for the whole group (including Metro and DG), because of this they are allowed to pass your information from one "department" to another including the call monkeys in the Phillipe ans.

If they are now saying the HSBC credit card data controller is a different person it would bring this into question and would also effect the validity of the set off between current account and credit card. How can they operate the set off if they cannot communicate the necessary data.

 

11. Termination notices HSBC: Not applicable

This is again a lie

 

The SAR was for my credit card, and this was the only account reference included in my request......so why do they mention a current account in point number 5 above????

Because they are stupid

 

HSBC have decided not to send a copy of the credit agreement as it isn't personal data?????.

Ditto

 

They have also not sent a copy of the default notice and termination letter, as they say the account is still open (LOL what a bunch of Muppet's)

Write and ask for your card back

They have also not sent any details relating to ppi insurance which I had on my Credit card (Now canceled).

This is common with a lot of companies because they have no excuse for miss-selling PPI and no defence, They hope you wont notice they haven't commented .

 

Well if they think they have complied with my SAR then they are wrong Looks like I will have to send them a LBA giving them 14 days.

 

Either an LBA or the information commissioner not sure which is quickest at the moment bare in mind the courts are about to go on their summer recess so its unlikely that anything will happen in court until September now.

Pete

[johnnymitch]

Hi pete , that was a quick in and out visit tonight , mate - loved your comments though . Knowing lee's flair for putting a letter together , the next one should be a good 'un !

 

Lee , were it me , I would send an LBA giving them 14 Days to produce , but also send a copy of the letter to the Information Commissioner to let them see what kind of drivel the bank is trying to palm people of with in reply to SARs ........... tell ICO that the letter is just for their general info at the moment , but may become a full - blown complaint if the bank continues to be obstructive .

 

That way you've gone on record if you have to take it further.......

 

What do you think ?

[lee32uk]

Thanks for the replies Pete and Johnny

 

I will definately be going down the Court route. I have had to use the Courts to make RBS see sense regarding their extremely poor SAR effort. RBS had a deadline of July 1st to respond to the Court order which they have failed to do, so now I will be sending the form back requesting judgement by default, and also pursuing the swines

 

Anyway back to HSBC..... I have had a quick look at the SAR they have sent me, and noticed that the account was opened in 1988. I can't remember if i had a credit card from that date, although the fact that they sent me a blank midland bank agreement means it must be from the early 90's or before. Think HSBC took over in the late 90's? I reckon that there is a good chance they don't have the agreement.

I have also noticed that the credit card number has also changed over the years as the SAR has 2 different CC numbers. A replacement card would have the same 16digit number, so this must mean I have had an entirely different card issued. Would this have needed a new agreement ?

 

Anyway I will be sending the LBA below to HSBC tomorrow, and also a copy to the ICO.

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

RE: xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

 

I am writing in response to the recent subject access request that I have received from your organisation. I am quite frankly amazed at the incompetence shown by your data controller(s), as they do not seem to be able to grasp what is personal information. Just to reiterate, a SAR should include anything you hold which bears my name, or is related to me in any way. To state that a credit agreement is not personal information is just laughable.

 

The disclosure of personal data is incomplete in that at least the following documents are missing:

 

1) A true copy of the original credit card agreement which bears mine and the banks signature for the above account.

2) Copies of any default notices and termination letters for the above account.

3) Copies of any telephone records for the above account.

 

This is not an exhaustive list by any means, it is just an example of some of the information I am missing.

Accordingly, I have to tell you that you have not yet complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

The time for compliance with my request has now expired. If you do not comply fully with my Subject Access Request within 14 days, I shall apply to the County Court for an order to enforce compliance, together with damages at the discretion of the Court.

 

If you do not have the above documents, or any other documents bearing my name then I would also require written confirmation before the 14 days.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully

[johnnymitch]

That should do the trick lee ....... I found this the other day , I think it was for CCA non -compliance , but should imagine it'll fit SAR as well ...........

"PLEASE NOTE that unless otherwise stated by yourselves and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be CONFIRMED that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec) "

 

 

btw there's a newposter called thirty-n'fat who's just received those letters you got lee ......

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/161941-hsbc-credit-card-cca.html#post2263754

 

I pointed him/her in the direction of your thread so you might find him/her asking you for advice ..........

[thirty-n-fat]

I pointed him/her in the direction of your thread so you might find him/her asking you for advice ..........

 

As a quick intro, Im a him and my real name is Phil - I just could not think of a suitably amusing pseudonym.

 

Im actually 6'4" and only 11 stone and cannot put weight on if I try, I am however 30.

[johnnymitch]

Oh well Phil - 1 out of 3's not too bad ........

[Pipster2797]

Its unreal what HSBC do to people. They must just think were thick.

 

Same as me as I said in an earlier post. No CCA sent in the SAR and no Default Notices or Termination letters. After writing back to them with the thanks of johnnymitch they replied to say they are not obiliged to keep a copy of the DN/Term letters. Didn't even bother replying about the CCA.

 

I'm keen to see where it goes for you from here as in the same boat but I'm sitting tight until they write to me again!!

[lee32uk]

I think most of these big organisations are the same.They think the customer is stupid

I will take it to Court if they don't fully comply with my SAR.I have had to do the same with RBoS.They totally ignored the Court papers and I have asked for judgement by default, and also asked the Court that they comply.If they ignore this then they will be in trouble

[thirty-n-fat]

My understanding of the DPA is that breaking this rule is much more serious than a debt.

 

I have been advised (and am interested in opinion on this) that documents or data that are not passed on as part of an SAR cease to exist as if said document was to appear later on as part of a CCA hearing then the consequences of breaking the DPA are far more serious and not worthy of risk.

 

However I am not expecting to recieve an agreement in my SAR.

Edited July 7, 2009 by thirty-n-fat
I cnat sepll !

[johnnymitch]

I don't know if any you have seen this link of the CCA 2006 ..... but IMHO it's worth a read ...

 

http://www.halliwells.co.uk/newsletters/pdf/233.pdf

 

of course for some parts of agreements taken out before this the conditions are not retrospective .... the right hand column is fairly informative on this though .....

[Pipster2797]

I will take it to Court if they don't fully comply with my SAR.I have had to do the same with RBoS.They totally ignored the Court papers and I have asked for judgement by default, and also asked the Court that they comply.If they ignore this then they will be in trouble

 

You will have to keep us updated with the RBoS too, that will be class if they ignore it. Bet it feels good that your starting to get the upper hand with them!!

 

I have been advised (and am interested in opinion on this) that documents or data that are not passed on as part of an SAR cease to exist as if said document was to appear later on as part of a CCA hearing then the consequences of breaking the DPA are far more serious and not worthy of risk.

 

Is this true and what would happen to them?

 

This is what worries me with things like this though. How do you prove exactly what they have sent you in a SAR because HSBC could turn round and say no we sent the CCA, the default notices and the termination letters in that SAR. Then it would be your word against theirs and make you look stupid in front of a judge.

[lee32uk]

You will have to keep us updated with the RBoS too, that will be class if they ignore it. Bet it feels good that your starting to get the upper hand with them!!

 

 

 

Is this true and what would happen to them?

 

This is what worries me with things like this though. How do you prove exactly what they have sent you in a SAR because HSBC could turn round and say no we sent the CCA, the default notices and the termination letters in that SAR. Then it would be your word against theirs and make you look stupid in front of a judge.

 

 

Pipster have a look at post #80 on the previous page.HSBC told me in writing what they hadn't supplied I would love to see them explain to a Judge that a CCA isn't personal data

[johnnymitch]

Hi pipster

 

You're in good hands with lee , she doesn't take no for an answer when it comes to sorting them out!

 

This is what worries me with things like this though. How do you prove exactly what they have sent you in a Subject Access Request because HSBC could turn round and say no we sent the CCA, the default notices and the termination letters in that Subject Access Request. Then it would be your word against theirs and make you look stupid in front of a judge.

 

They should send you a list of what is included in your SAR so you can check it's all there ...... if there's anything on that list that is missing , or even if it's not on the list and you think it should be included , get straight back on to them and tell them what's missing . Send 'Recorded Delivery ' of course , - I don't think a judge is going to take their word for it if you have written evidence to say that it wasn't received ..... because they should then have sent you further copies of what you claimed was missing .....

[Pipster2797]

I suppose it makes sense. Cheers

[johnnymitch]

Keep chasing them , pipster - or they'll think you've given up ........

 

If they still haven't sent your CCA they're in breach of the DPA and can be reported to the Information Commissioner's Office ......

 

They are also obliged , as I posted above on #85 to tell you if they haven't got it ......... don't let them off the hook ....

[Pipster2797]

Im not letting them off the hook but I'm just sitting tight as per my thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/204565-pipster-hsbc.html

 

Im just watching other threads of people in the same boat and learning from them too of exactly what to expect

[lee32uk]

Hi pipster

 

You're in good hands with lee , she doesn't take no for an answer when it comes to sorting them out!

 

 

Ahem all male here lol

[johnnymitch]

O-o-o-o-o-o-o-opp-p-p-p--p-p--p-s-s-s-s-s-s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

sorry lee - wrong lee .........

[allan48]

can you give advice.

i asked a claims management company to initiate a claim against HSBC VISA opened 2002 and constantly adding insurance to the account and Northern Rock since 11/05. Potential for unenforceable loan (25K over 8 years). They sent requests for CCA's late march and as yet have received no information from either. NR cashed £10 cheque on 3/6. Claims management company are giving no advice until they see the CCA. Should i start again with request from myself or take ownership of the problem with letter of dispute for in excess of the 40 days.

 

allan