Advice re: NatWest

[Myra]

I would be very grateful for your help and advice. I have been lurking on this site for some time now but nobody seems to have had anything like the following experience so your help and advice would very welcome.

In November my OH informed me that he had run up unsecured debts of £26,000. We got in touch with CCCS and were going down the DMP route. However I decided (I wonder now if it was against my better judgement) to try and sort these debts out ourselves and so far have kept the wolves at bay apart from NatWest. In all fairness there were some dodgy messages from NatWest that I received on the phone but as ‘I knew’ he didn’t have an account with them I thought they were in the ‘You’ve won a holiday’ league and ignored them and didn’t even tell him about them.

Anyway I digress.

With the advice of the CCCS he wrote to his creditors the template letter saying that he was having some difficulty paying etc but received no response from NatWest.

In the meantime he revealed 2 letters that had previously been written from Triton (I think he was letting me digest things slowly!).

He then CCA’d Triton and SAR’d NatWest. At the same time he also wrote another letter to NW asking for confirmation that they had passed this account to Triton. He also enclosed a cheque from myself as a gesture of goodwill.

Green and Co then got in touch and he sent them off with a flea in their ear as at that time no CCA received. Incidentally, although this letter was clearly addressed to Green, it was intercepted by Credit Management Services who didn’t know what he was talking about and wanted further information. Well of course they wouldn’t know what he was talking about as he has never had any contact with or from them – so sent them a terse letter and asked them to forward enclosed envelope to Green & Co.

NatWest then responded with the CCA, which as it was only taken out in June 07 I presume it is enforceable although I am not certain the signature box has not been tampered with! However it has always been our intention to pay back the debt as best we can. At the same time NW confirmed that the debt had been passed to Triton.

He then wrote to Triton stating that if we went down the DMP route they would only get approximately £x a month and it would take approximately 8 years to pay off the loan and offered a F&F settlement of approximately 40% which was slightly more than the amount after 8 years.

Within 6 days of NW saying that the debt had been passed to Triton he then received a letter from Newman stating that the account had been passed to them.

He responded by saying ‘prove it’.

In the meantime no SAR info received from NW and 40 days well and truly passed.

He then sent a further letter to NW stating that they had not complied with ‘my’ SAR request (enclosed original request) and gave them a further 7 days or “I would inform the ICO and would consider taking legal action”.

Received a letter back asking for £10 and saying “When we have received your payment we will be happy to proceed with your request”. The cheque for £10.00 had already been debited to my account.

He therefore wrote to them and informed them of this and also said that he had informed the ICO – which he did. He then said they had 7 days or ‘I’ would seek a Court Order”.

In the meantime Newmans seem to have gone quiet as he told them he was awaiting SAR information – but who knows as the letters keep crossing.

He has now received a letter saying “I wasn’t aware that you have written before as your original letter was not received” – I have electronic proof of receipt. It also goes on to say “I therefore ask that you cancel your original cheque as it has been lost in the postal system (presumably theirs) and send a new one direct to me”. Then “Once I have received this cheque I will be able to commence your application”.

He obviously can and will write back to say that they have already cashed the cheque (which he stated in his letter before and the date on which it was debited).

What I am asking is do ‘we’ now go down the road of seeking a Court Order? I really feel that NW are giving him the run-a-round and heaven forbid but I wonder if there is a hidden agenda or are they just totally incompetent?!

Sorry it is so longwinded but hopefully you will get the picture and somebody will be able to advise us as to what to do next or what might be coming next.

[davey77]

I would be very grateful for your help and advice. I have been lurking on this site for some time now but nobody seems to have had anything like the following experience so your help and advice would very welcome.

 

In November my OH informed me that he had run up unsecured debts of £26,000. We got in touch with CCCS and were going down the DMP route. However I decided (I wonder now if it was against my better judgement) to try and sort these debts out ourselves and so far have kept the wolves at bay apart from NatWest. In all fairness there were some dodgy messages from NatWest that I received on the phone but as ‘I knew’ he didn’t have an account with them I thought they were in the ‘You’ve won a holiday’ league and ignored them and didn’t even tell him about them.

 

Anyway I digress.

 

With the advice of the CCCS he wrote to his creditors the template letter saying that he was having some difficulty paying etc but received no response from NatWest.

 

In the meantime he revealed 2 letters that had previously been written from Triton (I think he was letting me digest things slowly!).

Dealt with Triton, they are not very clever.

He then CCA’d Triton and SAR’d NatWest. At the same time he also wrote another letter to NW asking for confirmation that they had passed this account to Triton. He also enclosed a cheque from myself as a gesture of goodwill.

 

Green and Co then got in touch and he sent them off with a flea in their ear as at that time no CCA received. Incidentally, although this letter was clearly addressed to Green, it was intercepted by Credit Management Services who didn’t know what he was talking about and wanted further information. Well of course they wouldn’t know what he was talking about as he has never had any contact with or from them – so sent them a terse letter and asked them to forward enclosed envelope to Green & Co.

Green and Co usually give up ever so easily. Generally people get one or two letters from them before they give up and move on.

NatWest then responded with the CCA, which as it was only taken out in June 07 I presume it is enforceable although I am not certain the signature box has not been tampered with! However it has always been our intention to pay back the debt as best we can. At the same time NW confirmed that the debt had been passed to Triton.

It's after April 07 which makes a difference to potential 'unenforceability' I'm afraid but could still be worth looking at. Can you post it up minus personal details? Or are you really of a mind to pay it back either way. No judgement. It's your debt and your decision.

He then wrote to Triton stating that if we went down the DMP route they would only get approximately £x a month and it would take approximately 8 years to pay off the loan and offered a F&F settlement of approximately 40% which was slightly more than the amount after 8 years.

 

Within 6 days of NW saying that the debt had been passed to Triton he then received a letter from Newman stating that the account had been passed to them.

Going round the houses a bit isn't it.

He responded by saying ‘prove it’.

 

In the meantime no SAR info received from NW and 40 days well and truly passed.

 

He then sent a further letter to NW stating that they had not complied with ‘my’ SAR request (enclosed original request) and gave them a further 7 days or “I would inform the ICO and would consider taking legal action”.

 

Received a letter back asking for £10 and saying “When we have received your payment we will be happy to proceed with your request”. The cheque for £10.00 had already been debited to my account.

 

He therefore wrote to them and informed them of this and also said that he had informed the ICO – which he did. He then said they had 7 days or ‘I’ would seek a Court Order”.

 

In the meantime Newmans seem to have gone quiet as he told them he was awaiting SAR information – but who knows as the letters keep crossing.

 

He has now received a letter saying “I wasn’t aware that you have written before as your original letter was not received” – I have electronic proof of receipt. It also goes on to say “I therefore ask that you cancel your original cheque as it has been lost in the postal system (presumably theirs) and send a new one direct to me”. Then “Once I have received this cheque I will be able to commence your application”.

What a joke. They have failed to provide the information even after cashing and accepting that request.

He obviously can and will write back to say that they have already cashed the cheque (which he stated in his letter before and the date on which it was debited).

 

What I am asking is do ‘we’ now go down the road of seeking a Court Order? I really feel that NW are giving him the run-a-round and heaven forbid but I wonder if there is a hidden agenda or are they just totally incompetent?! (The last one)

 

Sorry it is so longwinded but hopefully you will get the picture and somebody will be able to advise us as to what to do next or what might be coming next.

 

I would deal with NW only from now on as they (sound like) are still the owners of the account.

 

You've complained to the ICO about the lack of SAR which is good.

 

Depends what your objectives are. If you really wanted to get a F&F sorted all you can do is keep asking.

 

Have you been to CAB or Trading standards?

 

How many different creditors and who with and have you CCA'd anyone else?

[Myra]

Hi Davey77

 

Thank you very much for your response. I've just been reading your thread - it seems you've been through, and going through, the mill and for so long!

 

To update you and answer your questions.

 

2 months after original SAR request to NW received copy statements, T&Cs & Contract/Agreement only. They said they had no correspondence. However as I had written to them (am dealing with everything on OH's behalf although everything goes as if from him) stated that they had not complied with my request. Then received copies of correspondence. They have still not complied because I also asked for details of 3rd parties etc., and so have chased them up for that - still await a response. In that letter I have asked who at NW is dealing with account.

 

Newman's on his back again with threat of doorstep visit so bog off letter sent to them. Luckily they seem to have a very old telephone number and so are unable to contact us by phone.

 

In answer to your questions:

 

Did visit CAB but didn't find them of much help but I will say CCCS were great although I thought we could manage and didn't want to go down DMP route.

 

Haven't contacted TS either.

 

Creditors = 7, total debt approximately £26,000.

 

As I managed to get accounts back on track I didn't CCA them but SAR'd them instead.

 

Cap 1 CC responded with unenforceable agreement (no prescibed terms) and as OH has paid back very slighty less than he borrowed, the amount he owes is therefore purely interest and the penalty charges outweigh the 'slightly less' I have written to them asking if they would write off the debt and reduce balance to zero. That was just under a week ago so not expectng a response yet. Included in the SAR I asked for details regarding his loan with them but no response to that yet.

 

Response to Barclaycard SAR was statements only and 'This information we have enclosed relating to this account is all we have'. He has actually paid off more than he has borrowed so I was thinking of going down the same route as Cap 1.

 

Following the SAR to MBNA I have today received their response which is statements etc and what I am sure is an unenforceable agreement as it is an application form. I haven't calculated what he's borrowed and paid back on that yet or what constistutes as penalty charges.

 

The other CC, loan, overdraft etc. is linked with his business and personal bank account and our joint account so have done nothing about them yet until we put into place other accounts.

 

Our objective is to get out of debt as quickly and 'fairly' as possible.

 

Do you think I am going along the right lines?

 

With regard to NW I have no conscience as they have never actually spoken to OH or contacted him by letter and they passed the debt on prior to the CC payment date, albeit he was behind, but the good news is that they have not added interested.

 

I'll start scanning and see if I can upload the CCA from NW.

 

Any help or advice would be greatly received.

 

Mx

[davey77]

Hi Davey77

 

Thank you very much for your response. I've just been reading your thread - it seems you've been through, and going through, the mill and for so long!

..so my advice therefore to anyone dealing with debt is to hit hard and fast. Otherwise it will drag out for ages.

 

To update you and answer your questions.

 

2 months after original SAR request to NW received copy statements, T&Cs & Contract/Agreement only. They said they had no correspondence. However as I had written to them (am dealing with everything on OH's behalf although everything goes as if from him) stated that they had not complied with my request. Then received copies of correspondence. They have still not complied because I also asked for details of 3rd parties etc., and so have chased them up for that - still await a response. In that letter I have asked who at NW is dealing with account.

Sounds like you are on top on that.

 

Newman's on his back again with threat of doorstep visit so bog off letter sent to them. Luckily they seem to have a very old telephone number and so are unable to contact us by phone.

 

In answer to your questions:

 

Did visit CAB but didn't find them of much help but I will say CCCS were great although I thought we could manage and didn't want to go down DMP route.

CAB are good/bad depending where you live and the person you get to talk to. Some have had great help from them. Others have been let down. You could try another town or someone else in the same office (higher up) if possible. Just make sure it's a CAB with a specialist Debt section.

 

Haven't contacted TS either.

I would send your local TS a formal complaint in writing regarding any aspects of CCA non compliance and/or OFT Debt Collection Guidance. Keep the pressure on them and don't let them fob you off. (They are not keen on investigating Creditors but it IS their duty to do so upon a complaint from a consumer. (Can't hurt to try.)

 

Creditors = 7, total debt approximately £26,000.

I would start individual threads in the related forum (Barclays in the Barclays forum etc) for the accounts you want to do something about.

Then people will stop by and give their thoughts.

 

As I managed to get accounts back on track I didn't CCA them but SAR'd them instead.

Anyone you haven't CCA'd i would do so as a prudent step to see what they have.

 

Cap 1 CC responded with unenforceable agreement (no prescibed terms) and as OH has paid back very slighty less than he borrowed, the amount he owes is therefore purely interest and the penalty charges outweigh the 'slightly less' I have written to them asking if they would write off the debt and reduce balance to zero. That was just under a week ago so not expectng a response yet. Included in the SAR I asked for details regarding his loan with them but no response to that yet.

They will respond with a 'no' to the write off i am sure. So starting a thread and posting the agreement up should give you pointers on how to reply to that (depending on the aspects that make the agreement invalid.)

 

Response to Barclaycard SAR was statements only and 'This information we have enclosed relating to this account is all we have'. He has actually paid off more than he has borrowed so I was thinking of going down the same route as Cap 1.

Yes. Get the agreement from them then you will know where you stand.

 

Following the SAR to MBNA I have today received their response which is statements etc and what I am sure is an unenforceable agreement as it is an application form. I haven't calculated what he's borrowed and paid back on that yet or what constistutes as penalty charges.

As you know. Any incomplete reply to a S.A.R deserves a complaint to the ICO. Again, post the agreement (minus personal details) on a new thread and I'm sure lots of folks will be by to give their opinions.

 

The other CC, loan, overdraft etc. is linked with his business and personal bank account and our joint account so have done nothing about them yet until we put into place other accounts.

 

Our objective is to get out of debt as quickly and 'fairly' as possible.

99% of people that come to this site wanted to be fair but have been forced to learn about (and exercise) their rights due to the unfair and aggressive stance Creditors take with anyone they deem 'owes them'.

It shouldn't have to be the case but the only way to fight fire is with fire and the only way to get treated fairly and respectfully is to back the Creditor into a corner. (Be that with CCA compliance or any other method.) 2 years battling and one success tells me so, and that success only happened when Cap1 were two days away from a Court hearing i instigated.

 

Do you think I am going along the right lines?

Looks like you have done a lot already for sure.

 

With regard to NW I have no conscience as they have never actually spoken to OH or contacted him by letter and they passed the debt on prior to the CC payment date, albeit he was behind, but the good news is that they have not added interested.

 

I'll start scanning and see if I can upload the CCA from NW.

 

Any help or advice would be greatly received.

 

Mx

 

Sure get the starts started and agreements up. Get CCAs to anyone who hasn't been sent on if applicable, and complain to TS. That should get you started and will get people noticing your threads and commenting.

[Myra]

Hi Davey77

 

Thank you so much for your help. I was thinking I was alone and must have read nearly every thread on this site. I've uploaded the NW paperwork/agreement. Any feedback would be welcome from anybody.

 

Mx

First_page.pdf

Second_page.pdf

Third_page.pdf

Fourth_page.pdf

Fifth_page.pdf

[davey77]

I take it you have you removed the debtors and lenders signature from these.

[Myra]

There is no debtor's signature on it!

[Myra]

Oops - wrong way round. There is no creditor's signature on it! Sorry

[davey77]

Ah ok. There is a big different between one or another although in this case that may not even be true.

 

Pre April 07 agreements missing a Debtors signature would give you cause for an argument but this one is June 07 so you could be out of luck there.

 

Subsection127(3) was repealed on the 6th of April 2007 so that unenforceability due to 127(3) will only apply to agreements executed before that date.

 

Without a Lenders signature you can argue it is Improperly Executed but that's not as strong an argument. (Judge is most likely to say 'so what, you signed it and agreed'. etc)

 

I hope others with more expert knowledge can come along to advise on this one.

 

Apart from that all i can suggest is you ask for the other parts to the agreement (unless you already have other pages) as the bottom of the pages refers to other pages and you are entitled to all parts of the agreement.

You have pages 3,4,5,6 out of 9.

 

78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sets out clearly what is required to comply with a CCA request: “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it”.

[davey77]

You could argue the finer details as well (although would need others input before you start firing off letters.)

 

2nd page:

 

Summary of your application

 

Credit card agreement in Principle and credit agreement

 

3rd page:

 

Name and address of lender. No name and address of customer?

 

4th page:

 

3 KEY FINANCIAL INFORMATION

3A "please refer to general condition 6 for details". (See below)

 

5th Page:

 

Bottom of page:

 

"The accompanying General Conditions can be found in the separate booklet provided along with this part of the agreement."

 

78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974: “shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it”.

 

Therefore, IMO, i would argue that mentioning the General Conditions within the agreement itself makes those conditions part of the agreement and a document you are entitled to see.

 

That's the way i look at it. Hope others can chip in tho.

[Myra]

Many thanks for that. NW have been CCA'd and SAR'd and in all 3 copies they have sent me of the above attachments pages 1 & 2 and 7-9 are missing. I shall get on and request them.

 

I would also welcome any comments on the signature box (Fifth page). I have not tampered with that in any way. Does anybody see what I might see?

[davey77]

ermm no, being dense but can't see it. Doesn't seem to be anywhere for the Lender to execute the agreement by signing it...

 

You said no lenders signature so there was yours but you removed it for posting?

[Myra]

Yes, OH's signature removed. No you're not being dense. I've missed loads of things you've pointed out and I've read and reread the darned thing over and over again. The x showing where to sign does not seem to overlap the box - I would have thought it might!

[davey77]

Yes, OH's signature removed. No you're not being dense. I've missed loads of things you've pointed out and I've read and reread the darned thing over and over again. The x showing where to sign does not seem to overlap the box - I would have thought it might!

 

Ah yes i see what you mean. They could argue that is an arrow and not an X perhaps but it does look a little odd. Had thought you had cut it in half when removing the signature originally.

 

Worth keeping an eye on that and see if they ever send you anything different. Has been known for creditors to tamper with documents before now that's for sure!

[Myra]

So to recap:

 

I request missing info from NW as outlined in post 10.

 

I notify TS of 'unfair practices'.

 

And presumably ought to update ICO as to the fact I am still missing relevant info from NW that I asked for in SAR.

 

With respect to other accounts I CCA them - even though I've asked for Agreement in SAR?

 

Thank you again for your input.

 

Mx

[davey77]

Sounds like you are on top of things there then. But, YES to all those.

 

Yes CCA all, even if you have S.A.R'd them already. S.A.R gives them 40 days and has different implications on the account should they fail to respond (or respond incompletely).

 

A CCA gives grounds for you to withhold payment, put the account in dispute etc should they fail to provide the agreement/s with the 12 + 2 days. So always worth doing that if only for those reasons alone (let alone to see what you get back in response.)

 

Don't sign anything and send recorded as i'm sure you know.

[davey77]

TS complaint once (if) they fail to send any agreement/s within the allotted timeframe. (And keep pushing TS on the matter - they can often be difficult in standing up for consumers until consumers start reminding them that 'it is their job' to do so.)

[Myra]

Cheers.

 

Mx