Liability Order - What action will be taken?

[ohoh4312]

Hi all

 

I will try to keep this brief!

 

I received a Liability Order in the post today for OH, for unpaid CSA payments. The amount has been disputed with them for over a year, to no avail, so they took it to court.

 

The covering letter is exceptionally brief, and there is no mention anywhere of how the order is to be enforced.

 

Am I to expect bailiffs in the near future, or are there less painful alternatives? Don't want to give too much away, but OH is not even here at the mo, so I am fielding this one on my own.

 

Thanks xx

[ashmk]

The bailiffs will come but they cannot force entry. Lock your windows and keeps doors locked. Speak only out of a window to them. DO NOT let them in. Hide your car.

 

They have no right of entry, dont let them tell you otherwise.

 

They will try mabey 3 times to collect then pass it back.

 

Talk to the CSA and arrange a payment plan. Im afraid this is the only option as they want your money of your life and they dont give a damm about which one.

The CSA tell you that you must pay the debt in 2 years but they dont tell you its only a guideline and can be longer.

[ohoh4312]

Thank you ashmk.

 

Wish I had a car to hide LoL!

 

Do the bailiffs give you any warning before they turn up, I wonder? I have read all the advice on what to do and more importantly, what NOT to do, but it is still a scary time.

 

Already tried to reason with the csa before it went to court, but its like talking to a brick wall. They would not give us a breakdown of how they worked out what we should pay, nor would they accept an I&E from us proving that we could not afford what they wanted. I even told one person that in order to pay (for a child he has been denied ANY access to for nearly 12 years btw), our other 2 dependant children would have to go without food; apparently that was MY problem, not theirs!!!

 

Maybe they will have to accept a payment plan now.

 

Will keep you updated, and thanks again. xx

[ohoh4312]

Hi all

 

Sorry to trouble you again, but 2 things I need clarified if possible please:

 

1. I am thinking of writing to the csa on the following grounds:

 

OH is not here. (working away.)

Nothing in the house is in his name (apart from half the mortgage, half the secured loan and all the council tax lol!)

I am under the doctor for severe depression, resulting in major panic attacks and insomnia, amongst other things.

We have 2 kids (with me) and am s**t scared of someone banging on the door for money that I just don't have.

 

Would these be enough grounds to ask them not to send the bailiffs??

 

2. Offering a low but realistic payment plan because:

 

We do not have the money they want, period.

A charging order would be useless as the house is already in negative equity.

An attachment of earnings would be unenforceable because he does not work in uk or for a uk firm - is this correct please??

According to legal advice, the csa should have taken into account our current mortgage commitments and statutory allowance for dependant children living with us, but this was never allowed for, or even asked about by them, so therefore the liability order may be unenforceable as the calculations are disputed. (In fact they told me it didn't matter if we were paying £1 a month or £1million - the calculations stood as correct!)

By forcing us to pay the full amount in one hit would result in bankruptcy - actually we are nearly there now.

 

Do I have any hope with these arguments, or do I resign myself to being a prisoner in my home? Don't go out much anyway because of the depression, but this is just making it 10 times worse, if that's possible.

 

Sorry, I do know you are all busy, but any advice and/or guidance would be truly appreciated.

 

Thanks. xx

[ohoh4312]

Polite bump.

[chris600uk]

Nothing in the house is in his name (apart from half the mortgage, half the secured loan and all the council tax lol!)

I am under the doctor for severe depression, resulting in major panic attacks and insomnia, amongst other things.

We have 2 kids (with me) and am s**t scared of someone banging on the door for money that I just don't have.

 

Would these be enough grounds to ask them not to send the bailiffs??

 

Probably not

 

Nothing in the house is in his

We do not have the money they want, period.

A charging order would be useless as the house is already in negative equity.

An attachment of earnings would be unenforceable because he does not work in uk or for a uk firm - is this correct please??

 

Well unless he brings the money home in cash, I wouldn't count on it.

He is resident in the UK, and I think that makes a difference, but I'm not sure about that. You need advice from someone like tomtubby.

 

According to legal advice, the csa should have taken into account our current mortgage commitments and statutory allowance for dependant children living with us, but this was never allowed for, or even asked about by them,

 

Then you must complain to them about that and get them to look into it.

 

Nothing in the house is in his name (apart from half the mortgage, half the secured loan and all the council tax lol!)

I am under the doctor for severe depression, resulting in major panic attacks and insomnia, amongst other things.

We have 2 kids (with me) and am s**t scared of someone banging on the door for money that I just don't have.

 

Would these be enough grounds to ask them not to send the bailiffs??

 

2. Offering a low but realistic payment plan because:

 

We do not have the money they want, period.

A charging order would be useless as the house is already in negative equity.

An attachment of earnings would be unenforceable because he does not work in uk or for a uk firm - is this correct please??

According to legal advice, the csa should have taken into account our current mortgage commitments and statutory allowance for dependant children living with us, but this was never allowed for, or even asked about by them, so therefore the liability order may be unenforceable as the calculations are disputed. (In fact they told me it didn't matter if we were paying £1 a month or £1million - the calculations stood as correct!)

By forcing us to pay the full amount in one hit would result in bankruptcy - actually we are nearly there now.

 

You aren't alone, we are hypervigilant each time we leave or return to the house, our blinds are permanently drawn, anyone answering the door is scrutinised carefully before the decision to open it is made.

That's life with the bailiffs I'm afraid.

 

Still life could be worse - we still enjoy ourselves apart from those brief moments of mild stress. Our life goes on as normal otherwise we have developed habits that take away much of the stress.

You can get used to anything:)

[ashmk]

I can only tell you what a friend went through which is pretty much the same as you.

 

No there is no bailiff warning, they just turn up so you need to be carefull about leaving doors open. They will just walk in if you give them chance.

 

There is a letter you can send to the bailiff company to declare items are yours.

 

NAME OF BAILIFF OR COMPANY

ADDRESS LINE 1

ADDRESS LINE 2

ADDRESS LINE 3

POSTCODE

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME]: Notice of ownership

 

I write on the understanding you or your firm of bailiffs has seized, or is intending to seize chattels, vehicles, goods, or property belonging to me at the above-mentioned address in respect of an alleged debt belonging to somebody else.

 

I confirm that I am the lawful owner of the aforesaid property and contents and there is no entitlement enabling you to change ownership, possession, location, use and enjoyment of my property. This means both you and anyone acting for you are now unable to consider my goods to be prima facie the property of anyone else.

 

Please be advised that any attempt to subvert or rebuke this notice will result in a Form 4 complaint being filed at the certificating court along with an application for costs without contacting you further. Both you as a firm and your bailiff may also be criminally liable for committing an offence under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 and any criminal elemment to this matter will be passed to the police.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it to be served on you by the ordinary course of post in the meaning of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 and therefore it is your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

This letter should be from you not from your OH

 

 

Theres also a complaint form you can print off.

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

 

Print it off and keep it handy. Dont fill it in yet. It just shows the bailiff you mean business.

 

 

I dont think they could attach earnings but dont count on it.

 

Thats about all I can advise.

[ohoh4312]

Thank you both very much for your advice.

 

Sorry to sound so dumb about all this, but I have never been through it before and am just trying to be prepared and cover all the angles.

 

Thanks again - will let you know as and when anything happens. xx

[ashmk]

Also check there ID. Make sure they are from the company they claim to be.

 

The card should have a judges signature on it and the name of the court it was granted at.

 

If the bailiff does not have this, send them on there way.

 

Dont be fobbed off with a company id card. Ask to see the court issued id card.

[chris600uk]

I confirm that I am the lawful owner of the aforesaid property and contents and there is no entitlement enabling you to change ownership, possession, location, use and enjoyment of my property. This means both you and anyone acting for you are now unable to consider my goods to be prima facie the property of anyone else.

 

Please be advised that any attempt to subvert or rebuke this notice will result in a Form 4 complaint being filed at the certificating court along with an application for costs without contacting you further. Both you as a firm and your bailiff may also be criminally liable for committing an offence under Section 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006 and any criminal elemment to this matter will be passed to the police.

 

 

Don't include that part at all, you'll see why later on if you are unfortunate enough to have a really creative bailiff on the case.

 

I would tone it down a bit too.

One of the problems with letter writing is that we humans tend to get a bit carried away with the moment - and suddenly it's the gettysburg address!

I've done it myself and bitterly regretted it later.

 

Your letters should be polite, and factual, pointing out that you are now aware of your rights. If you look at my thread and the letters I sent, you'll see that I received exactly the same advice, and it was good advice.

 

If you end up making a form 4 complaint the judiciary will look at how reasonable you have been - so please be polite but firm it may make all the difference later - besides, not all council workers are bad, and not all bailiff employees are bad so don't start that way - it's not "reasonable":)

[chris600uk]

Duh! didn't put my thread up

 

here it is, should only take a year to read it:)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1239587.html

[ohoh4312]

Thanks for the great advice, and I undertand where you are coming from Chris600uk. All taken on board.

 

Just musing here, but would it be possible to SAR the csa??

 

Just thinking about tackling them over the calculations and lack of information from us which I am led to believe they should have asked for and taken into account when setting the level of payments.

 

That way I could theoretically challenge the LO if I can prove that the payment amount was unaffordable - yes??

 

I know it doesn't stop the possibility of bailiffs in the meantime, but may be worth a shot. I thought about going down the official complaints route, but without all the details of how the assessment was made, I don't know if it would hold water.

 

Any thoughts/advice gratefully received as always. xx

[chris600uk]

Just musing here, but would it be possible to Subject Access Request the csa??

 

Yes there should be no problem as far as I can see.

 

Just thinking about tackling them over the calculations and lack of information from us which I am led to believe they should have asked for and taken into account when setting the level of payments

 

Absolutely!

 

 

That way I could theoretically challenge the LO if I can prove that the payment amount was unaffordable - yes??

 

I don't think so.

[ohoh4312]

Thanks again Chris - gosh you are omnipotent eh! Don't know how you get anything else done seeing as you are always here helping people. Keep up the good work.

 

However, I understand your comments, but now I see there is no way out.

 

So, I can request all the info from the csa, and subsequently can challenge them if I find that the calculations were not based on correct information and/or they were negligent in collecting the required info etc etc, but even if I can prove that, I can't challenge the LO?? Or to be precise the amount of the LO?

 

If thats the case then there is no point in sending the SAR really.

 

Due to our change in circumstances we no longer have to pay anything, but I still believe that we were wrongly assessed. I have tried to sort this out over the last 2 years to no avail, so now I am really stumped.

 

I do not dispute that something should have been paid btw, and we were paying, but when it just kept increasing out of the blue, we simply could not afford it. And no-one would explain the increases.

 

I suppose I will just have to resign myself to making an arrangement.

 

Thanks again. xx

[chris600uk]

Thanks again Chris - gosh you are omnipotent eh! Don't know how you get anything else done seeing as you are always here helping people. Keep up the good work.

 

That's a lovely thing to say but I really don't deserve it, you know.

I've been through hell with the bailiffs myself, and face still more aggro because my house is still unsold, so in many ways helping others has only been helping myself - after a while you build up your knowledge and this stuff gets to be quite easy, and there are clever people out there who put me right when I get it wrong.

 

 

So, I can request all the info from the csa, and subsequently can challenge them if I find that the calculations were not based on correct information and/or they were negligent in collecting the required info etc etc, but even if I can prove that, I can't challenge the LO?? Or to be precise the amount of the LO?

 

Yes that sounds like the logical route to follow.

 

 

If thats the case then there is no point in sending the Subject Access Request really.

 

I wouldn't agree with that because, an SAR evidence of transactions on the account that might prove if you've been incorrectly charged or not.

 

 

Due to our change in circumstances we no longer have to pay anything, but I still believe that we were wrongly assessed. I have tried to sort this out over the last 2 years to no avail, so now I am really stumped.

 

I do not dispute that something should have been paid btw, and we were paying, but when it just kept increasing out of the blue, we simply could not afford it. And no-one would explain the increases.

 

That's where the SAR should come in, it may help to explain that.

 

 

I suppose I will just have to resign myself to making an arrangement.

 

Very possibly at this time yes, but remember, once you have enough information you can decide whether or not you have overpaid them.

 

In that case you explain it to them in simple terms - remember these people are overworked and probably in chaos, they may not have time to give too much thought to what you tell them - and ask them to refund you the money if you are owed any.

[ashmk]

Please please if you managed to dispute the liability order please post here and let me know.

 

My friend tried but they were not intrested and ignored everything he wrote to them.

[chris600uk]

That's because a council tax liability order is granted by the court on the basis that if there is a debt, a liability, then the person named as responsible for that debt is liable - there is no defence as far as I know.

 

Unless, in one case I've got, you don't owe it because you didn't live there at the time - you usually need some evidence to back that up though.

[ohoh4312]

Marvellous - another nail in the civil liberties coffin.

 

BBC NEWS | Politics | Absent parents may lose passports

[fwog]

Marvellous - another nail in the civil liberties coffin.

 

BBC NEWS | Politics | Absent parents may lose passports

 

 

Oh that was a good one!!:D

 

Don't tell me, election on the way? Public losing confidence?Headline grabbing by newbie minister? Take your pick.

 

Prisoner on island UK lol

 

They even said..

 

A Government source said: "The new powers will allow the CMEC to take passports and pilot the removal of driving licences directly from parents who wilfully refuse to pay money to their children, without having to go through the courts first."

 

How would you pay the CSA if you cant get to work???

 

You couldn't make it up, really!

 

Fwog

[cuz]

Hi, my husband has just received a liability order from the csa this morning, he already has an adjustment from earnings taken direct from his wages every month, but now they say this isnt paying his arrearrs quick enough and he needs to pay £4085.00.

 

We just cant afford this, we also have three children and we are really really struggling at the moment.

[ohoh4312]

Hi cuz

 

That is more than ridiculous.

 

Is the attachment is for a previous debt, and the LO for arrears that have built up since then?

 

The csa have internal guidelines in place which say they have to try and recover debts within 2 years, but that is not a law, and they cannot (but they do) force you into hardship in order just to pay them.

 

I would be interested to hear more details on your story - not that I can really help! Do you have a thread regarding this?

[ohoh4312]

Has anyone else had problems getting on here today??

 

I haven't been able to get on all morning - fatal error message saying IE cannot open the website or something???? I only got here now through a link on a search page. Most odd.

 

Thought I might have been well and truly cagbotted!

[ohoh4312]

As if life couldn't get any worse...............:mad:

 

Now they have been in touch today to say that arrears have been building up (000's) and they are going to court again!!

 

They don't believe he is away, AND the weekly amount has gone up again!

 

But no-one has chased a payment in 6 months, so I was unaware that this was building up, having been told by them that we no longer had to pay.

 

Haven't done an SAR yet because I can't really find one that fits this situation, but I am going to take a template and try to remove/insert details. Unless someone can point me in the right direction??

 

So upset - was in tears after the phone call.

 

So if anyone could help me with the SAR please I would be very grateful.

[KJD]

There is a thread here with some advice...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/118612-can-anyone-help-csa.html

 

Also, may be try googling 'csa help' ?

[cuz]

hi ohoh4312, they are saying the arearrs are from 2000 and not from a previous debt. My OH pays £60 a month taken from his wages, I know its not much but when they reassessed him in 2000, i had just had our second child and they said thats all he was due to pay.

He phoned them this afternoon when he got in and spoke to the dept who issued the liability order, the only way it will get stopped is if he pays the full 4k within 7 days (yeah right!!) She then started going on that the debt has to be paid within 2 years, and when my OH said that is just a guidance and not legal, she went very abrupt and said were lucky that theyre not taking 40% of his wages as a deduction of earnings, regardless of the fact we have another 3 kids with us. But the worst of it is, his ex-wife claims income support so she dosnt get any of it anyway. They will put a family in severe hardship and poverty just to try to clear their mess and mistakes theyve made since they started.

sorry to have gone on a bit