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    • If anybody has any advice here, it would be greatly appreciated, I already suffer with pre-existing disabilities & have struggled with this so far. 
    • so return of goods order etc etc read upload  scan pages to jpg, redact in mspaint. the convert to and merge to one mass PDF  read upload and use the online listed sites for all 3 stages. do you want to keep the car? i will guess this was a manual paper claimform direct from the co.court or was it org sent from salford bulk processing and has just got reaq ssigned?      
    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
    • Now that is an interesting article which adds afew perspective that I hadn't thought significant - but on reflection of the perspectives offered ... Now Starmer is no Blair, however 'blairite he may be perceived, but the Tories aren't tories and aren't even remotely liberal   The fast 'unannounced and unexpected election call from sunack may well be explained by the opinion linked that he hoped reform would be unprepared and effectively call a chunk of Farages largely empty bluster - making him look even more of a prat, leave scope for attacks on shabby reform candidates and mimimise core vote losses to reform - while throwing the 'middle ground' (relative) tories TO THE DOGS - and with the added bonus of likely pacifying his missu' desire to jogg off to sunny cal tout suite somewhat   thumb in the air - I expect about 140ish tory seats, but can hope for under a hundred Reform - got to admit the outside possibility of 1, maybe 2 seats with about 8% of the vote - but unlikely. I think projections of over 10% of the vote for reform is nudged and paid for speculation - but possible with the expected massive drives from Russian, Chinese and far right social media bot and troll prods targeting the gullible.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Penalty Claim -- Do I need to fill G. Other Information on N149


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The landlord and I signed a contract in Feb 08 and I gave a proper notice to move out Sep 08. I was chasing the deposit after move-out as he was on holiday first and then claimed his money was tight. I gave another nudge in Nov 08 he finally said he would return deposit to me with 300 pound deduction. :eek: The deduction was on purchase a new bed which he claimed was to replace the old one he threw out to vacant the room as our study. This was not indicated anywhere in our communication. We entered into negotiation. The landlord insisted on the money. I then discovered I had the right to claim the deposit+penalty as he failed to put my deposit into a designated scheme. I took him to court via MoneyClaimOnline.

 

After receiving the court claim, he returned the orginal deposit in full without 3X penalty, court cost or interest in Dec 08 and employed a lawyer to defend (they only mentioned my receipt of full deposit, so would like the proceeding to be withdrawn). I decided to continue the claim. I now receive the Allocation Questionnaire N149.

 

I saw there are a detailed Draft order for Directions and wordings on how to fill Other Information in the Bank Penalty Reclaim cases. Not much was written on how to fill N149 in the deposit claim (if there is, please direct me)

 

Just wondering at this stage whether I shall mention anything in Section G Other information, like court cases in Reading, Gloucester, AST I signed, bank statment showing the deposit going out, LL's email saying he was tight on the money (and therefore implied the money wasn't with any Scheme)...:???:

 

Much appreciated if you can give me some suggestion or ideas.

Edited by CarrieYuan
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The landlord and I signed a contract in Feb 08 and I gave a proper notice to move out Sep 08. I was chasing the deposit after move-out as he was on holiday first and then claimed his money was tight. I gave another nudge in Nov 08 he finally said he would return deposit to me with 300 pound deduction. :eek: The deduction was on purchase a new bed which he claimed was to replace the old one he threw out to vacant the room as our study. This was not indicated anywhere in our communication. We entered into negotiation. The landlord insisted on the money. I then discovered I had the right to claim the deposit+penalty as he failed to put my deposit into a designated scheme. I took him to court via MoneyClaimOnline.

 

After receiving the court claim, he returned the orginal deposit in full without 3X penalty, court cost or interest in Dec 08 and employed a lawyer to defend (they only mentioned my receipt of full deposit, so would like the proceeding to be withdrawn). I decided to continue the claim. I now receive the Allocation Questionnaire N149.

 

I saw there are a detailed Draft order for Directions and wordings on how to fill Other Information in the Bank Penalty Reclaim cases. Not much was written on how to fill N149 in the deposit claim (if there is, please direct me)

 

Just wondering at this stage whether I shall mention anything in Section G Other information, like court cases in Reading, Gloucester, AST I signed, bank statment showing the deposit going out, LL's email saying he was tight on the money (and therefore implied the money wasn't with any Scheme)...:???:

 

Much appreciated if you can give me some suggestion or ideas.

 

 

The correct procedure for issuing TDS non-complaince claims is to use form N208 Part 8, rather than an N1 claim form or Money Claim online. The court may or may not allow your claim to proceed (I suspect they will).

 

Make sure you use the correct form and not Money Claim Online should you ever be in the same situation again.

 

In terms of the form you have been sent, I dont know the answer im affraid as I dont believe such forms are sent with the N208 claims?

 

Good luck.

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Planner, thanks for replying. I see your point in using N208 after reading several of threads in this forum and Landlorzone. I proceeded with MoneyClaimOnline, as at the time it seemed to be a relatively cheap and quick way to solve the dispute. Will update on how it turns out.

As for now, I am thinking putting the following wording in the G Other Information.

“As a matter of fact the Housing Act 2004 section 213 (1) and 213 (3) were breached by the Defendant. The assessment of monetary reward according to the House Act 2004 section 214 (4) may therefore proceed justly and expeditiously, and hence I respectfully estimate that the hearing of the claim should last no longer than one hour.”

What do you think? Is it proper? Thanks

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Im not certain on this, and anyone please feel free to correct me, but it is the court who decides the directions and time allowed for the case. Im 95 % certain on this x

Please note, my advice is only my opinion.

If you have found my advice helpful, please tip my scales, thank you

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tx. I checked the Bank Claim on this site. It seems to suggest to put the estimation of time and drafted a direction for the judge to consider before the hearing. I can see the benefit of it to direct the juedge to focus on the issue especially in claimants' favour. However the bank claim is a well established procedure. Since TDS cases are relatively new, I am just wondering whether I should follow the suit. Hence the question

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just an update as promised, the court seems quite lenient on layman filling out moneyonline. (Not an encouragement to fill out the wrong form, but rather to say if anyone, like me, filled a wrong form, no need to lose sleep over it)

 

I received Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track (Hearing). court Hearing Date 6 Apr 09. Judge issued a standard direction and allocated 2 hour hearing time.

 

preparing evidence at the mo. I plan to use the NUS template, but would appreciate any suggestion and help. (could you leave a post link if you've gone through the same thing)

 

Thanks

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  • 2 months later...

I lost the claim. The judge said the defence made a good point that section 214 (3) is a precursor of 214 (4). When I issued the case, I had the right to claim both (3) and (4). Regrettably the landlord voluntarily returned the deposit before the hearing so that the DJ cannot make an order on 214 (3) and therefore he cannot make an order on 214 (4).

 

I said whether this is because (3) and (4) should be applied the same time. He said yes.

 

His judgement is a surprise to me. As during the whole hearing, he was asking whether the defendant complied to the section 213. Defence lawyer admitted that the landlord didn't put the money in the TDS or provide me scheduled information. But they argued I suffered no loss as they returned the deposit. I pointed out that I only got the deposit back after I issued the court claim; and that the landlord unfairly withheld the deposit. That's why we are in the court.

 

The judge said he knew that. I thought he was with me. I didn't go into the spirit of the law, as I saw him pretty much on the course of the non-compliance and HA 2004.

 

In hindsight, I probably should mention the spirit of the law even he didn't ask.

 

I am going to appeal. He did say he hadn't got much time to find a definite law piece to determine whether to engage 214 (4) or not. He said another judge might well find it differently.

 

Any recommendation for a good lawyer?

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I am busy contacting lawyers recently, found some good ones and probably will go for one of them. I will write down the defence argument and my thought on these. Hopefully, it can help some people (I did get loads of advice from the site, although I haven't been personally saying "thank you" to each one of you)

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Defence (I am not sure whether I can copy the whole piece word by word, let me know if I cannot)

 

7. This case concerns the following three issues:

a. The meaning of sections 213 (5), 213 (6), 214 (3) and 214 (4) of the Housing Act 2004 ("the Act")

b. The extent of the court's discretion in the light of those provisions

c. the relevance of the only reported authority on those sections of the Act. Harvey v Bamforth [2008] 46 EG 119

 

It then goes on:

 

The Housing Act 2004

8. The defendant places reliance upon the followin gpoints of law:

a section 214 (4) ("the penalty provision") is dependent upon, and must be read in accordance with, the meaning of Section 214 (3), which is its precursor.

b. section 214 (3) provides that the Court must do one of two things ".... "(quoting of the law)

c. One the court has done one of two things, it must then "also" have regard to Section 214 (4), which provides that "...." (quoting of the law)

 

The Court's jurisdiction under the Act

9. The Defendant submits that the court's jurisdiction is therefore dependant upon Section 213 (3) having application. Yet Section 213 (3) cannot apply because neither (a) nor (b) can apply in the circumstances of the present case, since the Defendant has repaid the deposit in full.

 

10. It is submitted that Section 214 (3), upon which Section 214 (4) turns, is quintessentially concerned with circumstances in which: (a) a landlord has failed to repay a deposit to a tenant and the tenant wishes to claim it back, or (b) a tenant wishes to stay in the property and consequently the landlord is required to pay the tenant's deposit into an authorised custodial scheme. The Defendant submits that these conditions do not apply in this case, since the deposit has already been refunded

 

11. It is submitted that these provisions do not apply to the present case for good reason. Chapter 4 of the 2004 Act was passed for the purpose of encouraging clarity and transparency in so far as the holding of tenants' deposits was concerned. The purpose of these provisions is clearly to ensure that landlords provide the relevant information of the authorised schemes in which tenants' deposits are held. The 2004 Act was not passed in order to create a windfall in circumstances where there has been no harm or monetary loss to the tenant, and where the tenant's deposit has been returned in full.

 

12. The Defendant further submits that, by way of analogy with the ruling in Harvey, the Courut must have regard to the nature of the harm and the extent to which the harm has been averted. In Harvey, the landlord had provided the tenant with the required information, but he had done so without the fourteen day time limit. The tenant nevertheless received the required information. In the present case, the Claimant has received the required deposit in full. She has therefore suffered no harm, and could have no use for the information coverning how the deposit was held.

Edited by CarrieYuan
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The Defendant's circumstances (we spend the most of time arguing this part. i think either I sucessfully presented the points or the judge thought the points were non-sense. I will put them out briefly so people might know what they can expect in court)

 

13. The defendant also relies on the following five matters of fact:

a. landlord used standard form of tenancy agreement. There are paragraphs regarding deposit a. return condition b. no interest c. circumstances for deduction

 

Judge dismissed it: no schedule information or substantially to the same effect

 

b. the landlord was not aware of the tenancy deposit-taking bodies. then a big paragraph of Harvey v Bamforth on HH Judge Bullimore's doubt on the three tenancy deposit-taking bodies

 

judge dismissed it: ask the lawyer where in the law asked the tenant to notify the landlord of TDS. Also point out "must" in 213 (5) and (6)

 

c. landlord tried to negotiate with me

 

we didn't go this far

 

d. landlord returned the deposit in full

 

we didn't go this far

 

e. landlord in financial difficulty

 

we didn't go this far

 

--

the reason we didn't go as far as c.d. e. was because the defence then trying to develop on Harvey v Bamforth case relating back to point 12.

 

I happened to notice in his defence pack (he only gave to me 10 minutes before court due time. But the court ran late for 2 hours and I was able to read all 14 page of defence. In hinsight I should dismiss the defence, I will come back to this at the thoughts) 22 November 2008 Estates Gazette 119.

 

It says "The draftsman, in dealing with proceedings relating to tenancy deposits in section 214, had clearly differentiated between the need to provide the information and that of doing so within a reasonable time."

 

I argued the landlord was completely failing to put the deposit into the scheme and not able to provide the information. This is the case here and it is therefore of different nature to putting it within a reasonable time i.e. Havey case. This is the very thing judge asked to differentiate.

 

Defence tried to argue the nature was the same. DJ agreed with me and stopped the defence lawyer arguing further.

Edited by CarrieYuan
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I didn't make enough noise for his defence point 8-12 because the judge asked me whether I understoodd what the defence meant for 8-12. I said "I think I do". But the judge obviously didn't like that answer, trying to interprete for me. He asked me again "why you pursued the case when you are no longer a tenant? The tenancy deposit no longer of use to you."

 

I then replied when I filed the claim I were the "relevant person" and all the condition of 214 (1) met and therefore I believe 214 (2) should apply which says 214 (3) and 214 (4) should apply. The deposit only returned after I filed the claim.

 

The judge then looked at the timeline realised I did put the claim before the LL returned the deposit. He then asked the defence lawyer whether he believed the case would have been dismissed if the LL repay the deposit one day before the hearing.

 

The defence lawyer mumbled and said of course this is of different case.

 

I thought the DJ was well aware of the absurdity of interpreting 214 (3) as the precursor of 214 (4) and didn't mention anything further.

 

That's the end of discussion for 8-12. DJ only brought up again in the conclusion.

Edited by CarrieYuan
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My thoughts (would love to hear your thoughts as well)

 

1. I thought too little about the complication of the court, particularly after i saw no defence evidence before the hearing date. (But I did receive a bundle on the date)

 

2. I was too confident about my presentation of the case. I tried to argue the points raised last minutes thinking I got grounds to dismiss all of them and saved me future trouble to turn up again. Obviously it turned out not as I expected.

 

3. I was not familiar with the procedure of the appeal and underestimated the cost involved in it. I always believed i had a strong case. If I couldn't win in the trial I would go for the appeal. But after going through the cost, uncertainty and trouble of appeal in the past few days, I realised I probably should have asked for an out-of court settlement before the hearing or for adjourning the case when everything turned aginst me based on some last minute defence.

 

4. Judges, are human being, have a personal take on this. Their opinion might not easily be persuaded by words particularly not legally polished ones.

 

5. DJs like GPs have a quite heavy workload (I knew the DJ sitting in the court non-stop from 10:00 -- 13:10 and he dealt with various case) and therefore don't expect him to know the details of the law particularly not the nuance of the law. Even something obvious to me can be overlooked by a DJ. Presentation is very important.

 

7. Putting down the points of argument in writing in a numbered form can help judge to follow the case. (I think my argument in words aginst defence 8-12 might get lost when he finally considered the judgement)

Edited by CarrieYuan
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Excuse my bad written English. English is not my first language. (I probably shouldn't fight a legal case in an English court)

 

I tried to change the title of the thread to Penalty Claim -- including hearing details. I think this might attract the proper attention and help the people in similar situation. Could BM help with that?

 

Also as I mentioned before apeal is quite expensive, is anyway that I can get help from charitable organisations like this site towards costs? Obviously I think loads of people would have a vested interest to see my case through appeal court (rather than settling outside court).

 

p.s. I am not qualified for legal aid. Shelter could not help in giving specialised advice. CAB might be able to after I receive written DJ's judgement but they said legal experts were in high demand let alone a specialised one. Even the best scenario where they could locate a specialised expert, it might take ages to get an appointment. I am against clock at the moment and cannot afford the risk as I have 21 day deadline.

Edited by CarrieYuan
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