My Grandmother v MBNA

[***inca***]

My nan's balance with them is around the 6,500 mark. Her limit being 7,000. They have told her she is living beyond her means and have stopped the card.

 

Last month she received her statement and the interest has gone up drastically, so much so that she can't afford to make the repayments. My father (without me knowing) wrote a letter to MBNA on her behalf saying that she is in difficulty and that would they accept payments of 105. per month and could they please freeze/lower the interest.

 

She has been waiting over two weeks for a reply. In the meantime they haven't stopped calling her. She now tells them she won't confirm any security details and puts the phone down (on my instruction) but they are still calling.

 

I CCA'd them yesterday for her and sent a telephone harrassment letter.

 

This morning she received a reply to her original 105 offer letter (which I still think is far too high an amount for her to be paying when she is on income support, disabled benefits etc) and she is now very worried. I have reassured her as best I can.

 

The letter states:

 

If she goes onto a reduced payment plan it will affect her credit rating for the entirety of the debt.

 

When she has paid the amount off it will remain on her credit file for 6 years.

 

She will not be able to obtain credit for the smallest of things, eg; mobile phone contract.

 

 

It then waffles on a bit and lastly says that they want her to ring them (despite her saying verbally and in that orginal letter to them that she will communicate in writing ONLY) to discusss a payment plan, and that she must do that within 2 days.

 

Needless to say she is worried, and I want to go and thump the buggers for worrying my lovely nan.

 

I am of the view that she ignores the bullying letter and waits for see what happens with the CCA req.

 

Do you agree? I am worried for her

[fuzzybobble]

Wait for the CCA request and see if they come back with anything. (usually MBNA are hopeless at producing anything enforceable.

 

If they do add a default on your Nan's credit file and the CCA turns out as unenforceable, then you can get the default removed. Takes bit of time, and usually involves taking them to court, but there's lots of advice on here should you need to do it.

 

Also if your Nan's agreement is unenforceable, it puts her in a much stonger posistion when it comes to arranging a settlement.

 

Going 6 years without credit isn't too bad. For one, it stops you getting into an even bigger mess. I'v not had any credit for 2 years now due to redundancy reducing my credit score to zero. For me all it means I have to save up for stuff I want, pay as you go mobile, and a bank account without a cheque book or overdraft. If you need a credit card to buy things on the internet, etc, then you can get prepaid ones. I have one where I can put money on the card in a shop or post office, then use it to buy things online with.

 

When you get the results of the CCA request, scan them, remove personal info, and there's quite a few people here who can then take a look at it for you.

[***inca***]

The legendary Fuzzybobble

 

Thanks for your reply, I'll tell her not to worry or panic about it.

 

Hopefully they won't be able to come back with anything enforcable! They were also asking in the letter for details of her incomes, who she owes money to and how much etc. She is worried that they will then get in touch with other people she owes money to (catalogues etc) and that they will take away her credit and she won't be able to buy so much as a pair of knickers ever again (her words, not mine lol) ...

 

IF the agreement is enforcable does she have to send an expenses sheet to them, and if so does she have to list creditors by name?

[fuzzybobble]

There is no legal requirement to send them income and expenditure information, or information about other creditors.

Only a Judge can legally ask for those.

 

MBNA do sometimes send out a form that asks for all kinds of info like that, hoping you'll be daft enough to fill it in.

 

They ask for the value of your car, caravan. stocks, shares,

How much life insurance you pay, school meals.

 

Then it goes on wanting your employers address and phone number, mobile number, email address, your occupation.

 

AND your National Insurance number!!!

 

Just imagine sending them all that. Then you wonder why there's so much ID fraud going on in this country.

 

FredBassett on here has a thread about MBNA. He has some lovely scans of all their colourful letters threatening all sorts. Some of them are laughable.

 

humyo.com - The Full Monty.pdf

 

That's the link to the PDF file that contains them.

As well as giving you a laugh, it will give you an idea of what to expect from them.

 

My faves are the road sign type icons they use to say "no more credit", "CCJ", etc.

 

Also the lifeline /we can help you letter that looks like question and answers screen from "Who Wants to be a Millionaire"

 

When I had dealings with them, I had run out of lifelines, so I took the money and ran. ;-)

[***inca***]

Thanks for the link, I recognise the letterheads from the correspondence my nan has.

 

I'll tell her to fill nothing in at all if they send her anything else. It's all sent to worry you into paying isn't it - did try explaining all of that to her, bullying tactics etc.

 

I cannot believe they would have the cheek to ask for all that info! Then again, after being on these forums, I shouldn't expect anything less really

[fuzzybobble]

I've found the best way to deal with DCA's is to tell them as little info as possible. Also make them do all the running around and form filling.

Avoid talking to them on the phone, unless you're recording it and using a judge judy soundboard. Then it's fine.

 

One thing you can pull them up on when they send it, is the secured loan application to sort out your credit card arrears. It's against OFT guidelines to tell you to obtain more credit to pay them. Make sure you complain to both MBNA and the OFT when the time comes.

[***inca***]

Avoid talking to them on the phone, unless you're recording it and using a judge judy soundboard. Then it's fine.

 

I found a George Bush soundboard the other day, very entertaining

 

One thing you can pull them up on when they send it, is the secured loan application to sort out your credit card arrears. It's against OFT guidelines to tell you to obtain more credit to pay them. Make sure you complain to both MBNA and the OFT when the time comes.

 

Would they really do that?! Maybe they are worried as she's 76 now

[Sparkie1723]

MBNA could be charged with irresponsible lending in the firts place..

sparkie

[***inca***]

Oh really....

[Sparkie1723]

Oh really....

 

 

Yes especially as they were aware of her age from her application for the card.

They should have asked themselves the question ....could a pensioner afford the payments out of her pension????

 

sparkie

[***inca***]

Thanks for that, will bear that in mind for future use.

 

I just wish they would ring her when I am there with her!

[c3po]

yo Inca

To demonstrate how reasonable your gran is you could send a copy of her last income support advice letter with the National Insurance number covered up.

That would prove she is receiving an income based benefit and is so officially a hardship case without revealing any information they can sell on or you have already volunteered.

It would also demonstrate reasonableness to a judge - especially if you point it out to him.

[***inca***]

That's a good point there, will do that.

 

Cheers!

[***inca***]

I think this could be it, let me know what you think!

 

Photocopy of small slip they sent

 

 

Close up - left

 

 

Close up - right

 

 

Then there's a photocopy of 'Financial and Related Conditions' - left side

 

 

And the right side

 

 

She has then been sent what seems to be a PC print out that's all of her details from when she applied, it seems she did it on the net. It gives her bank name, employment, address, email Income etc (I haven't scanned this, all it is are personal details and what she filled in on the net.

 

She has also been sent current terms and conditions (It says this is the agreement for her to keep on the top)

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do we think? My face dropped when I opened it

[davey77]

Looks like a mixmatch of lots of bits doesn't it. Only one signature then (your nans) but no signature of the Lender?

Even so, that part is separate to all the rest so fail to see how this constitutes 'properly executed'.

s61 CCA - Signing of agreement:

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

s127(3) CCA:

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

By the way, can you practice your photographic skills a little. Perhaps use a flash and then heavily adjust the brightness and contrast with a little sharpening. I find that does the job. If it's a good digital camera it may have a 'text' setting in the menu for photographing documents.

[angry cat]

Looks like the same old torn off slip, or form...

did you say that the application was made via the internet?

 

AC

[***inca***]

I did it on my phon, hence why it's all a little dodgy When I use the flash it just puts a blob of light on it - maybe I could use photoshop on it?

 

Yes, it was done on the internet. My dad filled it out for her.

 

Thanks Davey - are you basically saying that as there are not two signatures there that it's not the correct documentation?

 

What should our next course of action be?

 

She's 76 and is very worried about all of this, they were calling her constantly but stopped after my second telephone harrassment letter.

 

She has visions of being carted off to prison and bailiffs coming and taking all of her bits and bobs

[davey77]

I did it on my phon, hence why it's all a little dodgy When I use the flash it just puts a blob of light on it - maybe I could use photoshop on it?

 

Some flash settings, as for red eye reduction, will take the photo in between the two flashes so experiment a bit but yes lots of photoshopping: large amount of brightness, tons of contrast, a little exposure will do the trick normally.

 

Yes, it was done on the internet. My dad filled it out for her.

 

She should have received a copy there after that was her agreement to keep i believe and that should be compliant..

 

Thanks Davey - are you basically saying that as there are not two signatures there that it's not the correct documentation?

 

Basic principles apply as per the quote of Regs earlier and without both signature of borrower and lender (although it's hard to read the wording on the rest of that stuff) that in itself, makes a case for the agreement to be 'improperly executed'.

 

What should our next course of action be?

 

She's 76 and is very worried about all of this, they were calling her constantly but stopped after my second telephone harrassment letter.

 

Pleased the phonecalls have stopped. If they start again there are lots of good letters threatening all sorts to the Creditor. (Personally, changing my number was bliss!)

 

She has visions of being carted off to prison and bailiffs coming and taking all of her bits and bobs

 

Being older she probably has the view that debt is an imprisonable offence (as in dickens day) my mums in her 70's and looks at many things in life through older eyes.

Im sure you have reassured her that times are different and being in debt is no longer a crime.

 

You need to ask if that is all the documentation they have in regards to an full original agreement.

[***inca***]

Thank you. I have done my best to reassure her and have explained to her how things work and that she shouldn't be worried etc.

 

You think I should write to them asking for more or send the dispute/two signature argument as you have suggested on my Cap One and Barclaycard threads?

[davey77]

In line with your photo.. its a game of cat and mouse. It's been my experience that you don't give the lender too much information in the early days of complaining as to the detail of why an agreement (you feel) is incorrect.

 

You let them reply, make mistakes, mis-quote themselves etc. That way you have proof in writing that on this date they said that was the agreement, on another date they said this was the agreement.

Read my thread davey vs Cap1 and a similar argument presents itself in the way Cap1 responded to various requests for information.

 

I would reply with a dispute letter and include the request for documentation that conforms to the regs. Include the 61 & 127 regs quote i posted earlier.

Let them work out in what respect that are non-complaint (initially at least) but don't give them too much help.

 

In further communications later you can be more specific and pin them down to certain points but by then you should have a better idea of how they are going to play this game, how they are defending their stance and that should put you in a more informed position.

[angry cat]

by Davey77:

I would reply with a dispute letter and include the request for documentation that conforms to the regs. Include the 61 & 127 regs quote i posted earlier.

Let them work out in what respect that are non-complaint (initially at least) but don't give them too much help."

 

Agreed! and...

remember that section 78 states;

'and any other document referred to in it'

thus there is an important document missing, bearing in mind that this was an internet application.

 

Tell your Nan not to worry.

 

AC

[davey77]

Having looked through my own MBNA stuff i find similar things. You do have the lenders signature i notice on the 'signature form' in the form of a 'stamped' name and date although this stamp obscurers writing which you should be able to see clearly.

 

I can't see how that page could be related to the 'Financial and Related Conditions' info.

 

I am looking into my 'agreement' page along similar lines at the moment. If i get anything definitive I'll let you know.

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/MBNA6.jpg

[***inca***]

Hi Davey, have you had any luck with your MBNA?

 

I have the dispute all ready to send tomorrow (if I can get to the PO past the snow!) for my nan...do you think I should send an Subject Access Request too?

 

Edited to add: Could they say that the date stamp/signature is all they need to put on it from their side?

[davey77]

Nothing new on MBNA here yet. Still waiting on some professional evaluation of those 2 MBNA agreements of mine.

 

Yes S.A.R as well for good measure.

 

They could well say that the signature stamp is valid although i would say that if the Prescribed Terms are not on that Signature part, then they would state that those other pages are part of the overall 'agreement' and therefore you need to look at how those pages are 'linked' and if there are any discrepancies.

[***inca***]

Hi Davey

 

(Thank you so much for your help on my threads by the way, you're a star)

 

I am forgetting I have already sent MBNA a dispute letter, and in reply to it was sent all of the jargon above.

 

Should I simply send an Subject Access Request to them?

 

Actually I am going to write to them asking them if that is all they have with regard to the full original agreement, if they don't play ball, then I shall hit them with an SAR.

Edited February 3, 2009 by ***inca***