Philips(Darlington) Adding Fees at Random

[GlenW]

I had a £50 fine to pay and forgot about it, just before I went on holiday I got a final reminder from Newcastle Magistrates court and forgot about it again. When I returned from holiday I had a letter from Philips demanding payment of the fine and another £50 for their fees.

 

"Okay, my mistake, I'll pay the £100 and put it down to my stupidity", I thought.

 

The letter was dated 01/09/2008 and stated that I had 7 days to pay the £100. I phoned Philips on 05/09/2008 to pay them by debit card and was told that the amount I owed had risen to £200. When I asked why, they said that the extra £100 was for a bailiffs visit. I argued that no visit had taken place, but the person I spoke to wouldn't listen.

 

I then phoned Newcastle Magistrates court and explained this to them. They agreed to me paying the fine and the original Philips charges at £25/month. I emailed Philips with this information and received a reply confirming this arrangement, but insiting that I owed them £200. On 08/09/2008 I received another letter from Philips dated 05/09/2008 demanding £200. When I emailed Philips again, asking for an explanation of the extra £100, they replied stating that I still owed them £200 because there had been a visit from a bailiff on 09/09/2008.

 

In short:

 

1st September - They said I had 7 days to pay £100

5th Sptember - I now owed them an extra £100 for a bailiff's visit that would take place on 9th September

 

I paid the first intallement of £25 on 3rd October.

 

Further email exchanges with Philips made no progress in establishing how they could increase their charges as they had. I decided to pay the remaining £75 of the amount that I agreed I owed, and did so on 23rd October.

 

Today I have received a letter, posted by hand, demanding a further £150!

 

Can they do this?

Can they enforce payment of a debt that obviously does not exist?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Edited November 4, 2008 by GlenW

[Guest BURP]

It looks like the bailiff is ripping you off. Throw a spanner in the works and watch the fun start.

 

Name of bailiffs

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME + REF]: Opportunity to refund and compensate for fee error

 

I write following visits by your bailiff, however there appears to be an irregularity with your fees and I ask you to provide the following within fourteen (14) days:

 

a) The name of the certificating court and certificate number for the bailiff in charge

 

b) Written confirmation of your fees and charges

 

c) Truthfully confirm in writing they are lawful according to prescribed legislation

 

d) The name and address of the person or body you act for

 

If you cannot complete the above, please unconditionally pay me within fourteen (14) days a refund of all unlawful fees and unconditionally pay me compensation of £4999.00 for failure to comply with the law and I will consider this aspect of the matter closed.

 

If I later find an irregularity with your fees within the statutory time limit of 6 years prescribed under Section 2 of the Limitation Act 1980, I will enter no further correspondence with you and automatically file a Form 4 at court for committing offences under the Fraud Act 2006. This may also involve a criminal investigation by police and your firm's director(s) may receive a criminal record for fraud, assisting an offender and benefiting from proceeds of crime.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

YOUR NAME

[GlenW]

Thanks for that, I might just give it a try.

 

I can't believe they think they can get away with what they have attempted. I've sent them 12 emails asking for them to explain how the amount I owed, and had 7 days to pay, could increase in only 4 days. And, for a visit that hadn't even taken place, and which never did as far as I know.

[Guest BURP]

What kind of debt is this?

[GlenW]

What kind of debt is this?

 

The original sum was for a fine I forgot to pay and Philips costs, £100 in total.

 

I've paid that money, but Philips are still trying to get me to pay the fictional extra costs as detailed in my original post.

[Guest BURP]

The law prescribing bailiffs fees collecting unpiad fines varies from court to court. You need to do a Freedom of Information Act (fee may apply) and get the fee schedule agreed between the court and its bailiffs. See if those fees marry up with what Phillips comes back with. If you have been overcharged then the fun has only just started!

 

The Court Manager

Name of Magistrates Court

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

 

I write asking for the following relating to fee agreements between the magistrates court and the firm of bailiffs employed to collect unpaid fines. Please provide:

 

1. A copy of written agreements between the court and its bailiffs

 

2. The names and addresses of bailiff firms contracted by the court

 

3. The schedule of agreed fees a bailiff can claim from a debtor of an unpaid fine.

 

4. Confirm those fees comply with Section 92 of the Courts Act 2003

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

[GlenW]

My problem isn't with the size of the fees, although they do seem a bit steep.

 

My problem is that they shouldn't have charged them at all. If I'm given 7 days from the 1st September and try to pay it on 5th of September it shouldn't have gone up at all. Especially as they now claim that the extra £100 was for a bailiffs' visit that isn't supposed to have happened until the 9th of September.

 

It would be funny if it wasn't so annoying.

[Guest BURP]

Bailiff fees don't work like that. Its usually % (on a sliding scale) of the amount recovered and a nominal mileage allowance typically 45p/mile and 20p/mile after a threshold distance max £50.

[GlenW]

Bailiff fees don't work like that. Its usually % (on a sliding scale) of the amount recovered and a nominal mileage allowance typically 45p/mile and 20p/mile after a threshold distance max £50.

 

Well, Philips must have decided to try and get some more money out of me, by this strange method. They seem to have ignored the simple rules of mathematics, the 1st of September plus 7 days is the 8th of September, the 10th if you consider only working days. And, they have tried to levy the charge for a visit that, even they claim, hadn't even happened yet.

 

There must be some way I can just make them stop, no one could possibly agree with them, that I should pay.

[Guest BURP]

The bailiff has behaved unreasonably. You can make an official complaint against him by writing a brief summary of facts (as you describe above) on a Form 4 and mail it off to court that issued the bailiffs certificate. Download a Form 4: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf and phone the Public Register of Certificated bailiffs 0203 334 6355 and ask which county court issued the bailiff his certificate. Sit back and watch.

[GlenW]

Thanks for the advice and the link BURP.

I'll send the form away tomorrow, I'll post on here when something happens.

[tomtubby]

Sorry BURP can can I please correct some points.

 

Firstly you would be wrongly advised to send a Form 4 as this is a debt for an outstanding Magistrates Court FINE and the Ministry of Justice have agreed that Philips and Marston Group may use UNCERTIFICATED bailiffs to enforce these debts for a certain period of time.

 

Second. The fees are AGREED in the contract with the MOJ and NOT the individual Magistrates Court so there is no point in apply under the Freedom of Information.

 

The argument here is with Philips and the way that they are attempting to charge their standard visit charge before the expiry of the 7 days. Sadly, we have heard so many of these same complaints in the office.

 

Can you please let me know the area of the country that you are in as the MOJ have appointed individual Contracts Managers to receive complaints about the enforcement of these fines. From experience, most complaints have been settled very speedily when contact is made. You will need to provide as much details as you can.

 

There are seven Contract Managers for different parts of the country. ie: South East, Midlands, North West etc.

 

If you can let me know I can provide the details for you.

[Guest BURP]

Hi Tom tubby, I anticipated you pulling me up on this thread. You are right in saying uncertificated bailiffs are used for collecting fines. The OP doesn’t need to know that and its up to Philips explain it away. They might even volunteer new information in the process. Your second point, court managers hold fee contracts and can make them available under the Freedom of Information Act. You asked the OP what area of the country he is in, if you read the original post it’ll give you the answer. A contracts manager’s remit doesn’t include awarding compensation for misfeasance by a fines bailiff. There’s good reason why I posted that template letter as you see it. You can continue commenting on my posts if you like, two heads are better than one.

[GlenW]

Can you please let me know the area of the country that you are in as the MOJ have appointed individual Contracts Managers to receive complaints about the enforcement of these fines. From experience, most complaints have been settled very speedily when contact is made. You will need to provide as much details as you can.

 

There are seven Contract Managers for different parts of the country. ie: South East, Midlands, North West etc.

 

If you can let me know I can provide the details for you.

I read this reply as a notification email this morning, but couldn't access this site, guess it was all locked up to keep the bailiffs out.

 

So, I telephoned the Ministry of Justice and asked them for the telephone number of the person I needed to speak to. The person I spoke to didn't know what I was on about, but made sure he found out. He contacted HMCS[sic?] and got me the number.

 

I called this number and explained my problem, the lady I spoke to gave me an address to write a complaint to at Philips, and said this was the best first course of action. So, I wrote the following:

Philips Collections

Telford House

18 Garden Street

Darlington

Co Durham

DL1 1QP

 

05 November 2008

 

Ref: 1192690

 

Dear Sir,

 

I am writing to complain about the way your staff have handled the above account, and the continued demands I am receiving for monies I do not owe. I am also requesting that you accept the errors you have made and confirm that the above account is now closed.

 

I received a letter from you dated 1st September 2008 requesting payment of £100 within seven days, this was made up of £50 for a fine you were collecting for Northumbria Magistrates Court and £50 of your costs.

 

I telephoned you on 5th September 2008 to pay this amount, on the number given in your letter, and was told that the amount owed had increased to £200. No reason was given for this increase. I contacted The Community Legal Service and was advised to dispute this amount with you and request a written breakdown of how this amount was reached, this I did by email on the same day.

 

In your reply, by xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx, you claim that the extra £100 was added as a visit fee. I consequently received a letter from you dated the 5th September 2008 that detailed the charges you were claiming. Amongst these charges was one for a visit fee dated the 5th September 2008 for £100.

 

As your first letter, dated the 1st September 2008, specifically stated that I had seven days to pay £100 to settle the account, I could not accept that this further charge of £100 was justified.

 

As my protestations continued, by email with Ms xxxxxxxxx, I was amazed to receive an email from her dated the 12th September 2008, which stated that the visit fee that had been added to my account on the 5th September 2008 was for a visit that she claimed had taken place on the 9th September 2008. So, you had not only charged me a visit fee well within the seven days you said I had to pay the original amount, you had charged me for a visit that was to take place four days in the future!

 

I have paid the original £100, that I have never contested, this was paid in two amounts using your online facility: 9th October - £25 Authorisation Code: nnnnnnnnnn and 16th October - £75 Authorisation Code: nnnnnnnnnn

 

Obviously, I have continued to protest against this ridiculous extra charge, but I have received, yesterday, a Notice of Attendance from you now claiming that I owe you £150. As the first extra charge of £100 has been in dispute since the 5th September 2008 I also deny any responsibility for the £50 that has been added to it.

 

Could you please confirm that the amounts on this account, that are in excess of the original £100, which has now been paid, are there because of errors on your part and that this account is now closed.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

xxxx xxxxxx

Cheers for the last bit BURP

I've just got wait and see what happens now.

[Guest BURP]

I called this number and explained my problem, the lady I spoke to gave me an address to write a complaint to at Philips, and said this was the best first course of action. So, I wrote the following:

 

Thats the usual comeback. Complain to. The bailiff might not be certificated but phone 0203 334 6355 and find out. If certificated then Section 8 of the Disrtress for Rent Rules 1988 give you the right to make a complaint and ask for compensation. No certificate then its the small claims track (fee applies) the court has similar powers of judgment (long & technical). Good luck.

[GlenW]

I've just received a letter from Philips, here in an excerpt:

I am writing with reference to your recent letter regarding the fees and charges applied to your account.

 

These fees are charged in accordance with an agreement between ourselves and our client and will not be removed from your account. Your current balance is £150.00 and will remain at this as long as there are no defaults on any arragement you have in place and no further attendences need to be made to your property.

 

Should the whole balance not be cleared then action will continue possibly resulting in further costs being added to the account.

 

If I disagree that the fees mentioned should ever have been added to my account, and have written to them detailing my objections, what do I do now?

[tomtubby]

There are contract managers assigned to deal with complaints about the collection of these fines. Can you let me know the area of the county that you are in. By area I mean for example: south east, north west, london etc.

[GlenW]

There are contract managers assigned to deal with complaints about the collection of these fines. Can you let me know the area of the county that you are in. By area I mean for example: south east, north west, london etc.

 

North East England, Newcastle actually.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[version302003]

Hi glen, in not able to give any advise on this but I think what they have done is outrageous. Fine, you have accepted some responsibility and paid, but these people have clearly charged amounts that are unreasonable and unwarranted.

 

I think you need urgent help on this rather than speculation and opinions.

 

Anyway goodluck and thought your post needed a *bump*

[tomtubby]

I will get the details of the Contract Manager over to you in the morning.

[GlenW]

I phoned Newcastle Magistrates court yesterday and explained what had happened. I then emailed them copies of the letters I have, that demonstrate why I dispute the extra fees Philips have added.

 

They phoned me back, in about twenty minutes, and told me they had contacted Philips and put a two week hold on the case, until Philips can explain the extra charges.

 

Guess I've just got to wait and see what happens next.

[sillygirl1]

Good - now the court themselves can see what these sharks do to the fees. You should NOT be charged by the bailiffs from the date you have paid the original fine, all liability with them ends when the original fine is paid (IMHO) they are abusing their powers by charging this additional sum of £150.00

 

Good luck with this, let the courts see how greedy 'their' clients are.

[tomtubby]

This type of complaint is by far the most common that our office are hearing concerning the collection of the Magistrate Court Fines.

 

We have been sent as well many copies of letters and the relevant envelope , many of which are sent using TNT mail which is a second class mail system. So many visits are being made BEFORE the letter has even arrived.

 

Message sent to you.

[GlenW]

Message sent to you.

If the message was meant for me, I haven't received it.

[tomtubby]

As we are a commercial company, I am not allowed by the moderators to advertise our website and I do not have a private message facility. I will contact a mod to get a message over to you.