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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Car finance (Repossession)


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I am in a somewhat similar position and my personalised reg was sold with the car. here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/39899-hostile-termination-hp-agreement.html

 

In my opinion you should write telling them you dispute the balance, requesting all docs, from acc agreement, acc statement detailing starting balance, payments made, charges, final balance, copy docs from the auction house, and if it was sold with v5.

 

when you have a the information you need in front of you, you can proceed with your dispute into the sale price and the issue regarding your reg.

 

did they fail to gain full market resale for the reg, also they had been informed of the removal of the reg, they never informed you of the venue or time of sale.

additionally, you were not allowed the chance to transfer the agreemnt after numerous requests.

 

you had informed them that you had payment diffuculties, and they failed to compromise.

 

the reasoning behind the balance is

 

ammount they would have received if the agreemnt had been fulfilled minus the sale price of vehicle.

 

when writing to the hp company, direct your letters to compliance and inform them the account is in dispute

 

if you do not pay or make an arrangement they are likely to apply to the court for judgement and that will impair your credit.

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Mortgage Express charges- settled in full after issuing claim

 

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To view the FAQ'S click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/

To view the PRELIM letter click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

To view the Letter Before Action click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/92-3-letter-before-action.html

To find Registered Address:

http://www.esd.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/esd/search.asp

 

 

If my advise helps click here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/reputation.php?p=366404

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What's the next step for me now, then? Get in touch with them and ask for a breakdown and a re-calculation?

 

Yes - explain that your having difficulty in reconciling their various charges and ask for a breakdown to enable you to ensure any charges made are fair and reasonable - that's usually worth an instant discount for a start!

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You will normally be liable to pay back the balance between the amount owed and the auction value of the car. ***** may have a fiduciary duty to obtain a reasonable price for the car i.e. normal selling price at the auction. Anything considerably less than the bottom price indicated on the glass's guide would possible give you grounds for referring the matter to the financial ombudsman service.

 

here is the response from fsa regarding hp company selling a car at auction without having a reserve price

 

 

check out glass's used car prices on here

PT-NoCookies

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Mortgage Express charges- settled in full after issuing claim

 

------------------------------------------------

To view the FAQ'S click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/

To view the PRELIM letter click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

To view the Letter Before Action click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/92-3-letter-before-action.html

To find Registered Address:

http://www.esd.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/esd/search.asp

 

 

If my advise helps click here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/reputation.php?p=366404

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additionally another price comparison site, for free

Parker's

-----------------------------------------------

Mortgage Express charges- settled in full after issuing claim

 

------------------------------------------------

To view the FAQ'S click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/

To view the PRELIM letter click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

To view the Letter Before Action click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/92-3-letter-before-action.html

To find Registered Address:

http://www.esd.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/esd/search.asp

 

 

If my advise helps click here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/reputation.php?p=366404

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As has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, Glass & Parkers guide are simply that, a guide. There is no responsibility, either implited or attached to the resale price of a vehicle asd what a 'typical' version of it as shown on these guides. At auction, the seller (finance house) has discharged their fiduciary responsibilities by having the vehicle sold at publiic auction - and the price obtained for most vehicles is less than any of the guides. Add to the fact ALL cars there are sold 'as seen' this deflates the value even further. Always try to dispose of your vehicle via a dealer, rather than have it reposessed and disposed of.

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Have just noticed this thread. Nellie - if you signed the finance docs at home they are non-enforceable in their entirety. Finance docs must be signed on trade premises and the dealer must sign a 'Dealers offer and Warranty' confirming this is the case before the dealer is paid by the funder. I have scanned a sample of this document which I completed this morning. If you need a fuller explanation of the legalities send me a PM. The scan is here with the relevant text underlined.

ImageShack - Hosting :: dealersofferpc7.jpg

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You will normally be liable to pay back the balance between the amount owed and the auction value of the car. ***** may have a fiduciary duty to obtain a reasonable price for the car i.e. normal selling price at the auction. Anything considerably less than the bottom price indicated on the glass's guide would possible give you grounds for referring the matter to the financial ombudsman service.

 

 

here is the response from fsa regarding hp company selling a car at auction without having a reserve price

 

 

check out glass's used car prices on here

PT-NoCookies

 

 

if the bottom price is 10k and the car is sold for way below this, the hp company could be classed as not fulfilling their duty of car.

 

My example is where the car was sold for 3k and the bottom value would have been 8k. The has to be som questions raised on this matter. Also in my case the hp company concealed the fact that the car was a non runner in the auction.

Only for myself to find out from the buyer.

-----------------------------------------------

Mortgage Express charges- settled in full after issuing claim

 

------------------------------------------------

To view the FAQ'S click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/faqs-please-read-these/

To view the PRELIM letter click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html

To view the Letter Before Action click here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/92-3-letter-before-action.html

To find Registered Address:

http://www.esd.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/esd/search.asp

 

 

If my advise helps click here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/reputation.php?p=366404

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A public auction is deemed an acceptable venue for the vehicle to achieve its 'true' value. Pointing out that its £Xk less than Glass/Parkers is no argument, and as for the HP co not disclosing it was a non-runner? This is an AUCTION, caveat emptor applies, and that's why there are viewing days to allow buyers a chance to make their own enquiries. Following this logic, for house reposessions the price should be what an Estate Agency says it is, not what the bidders are prepared to pay! (That won't fly either). The situation is easily avoided, if a vehicle has to go, the users sells it of the highest price he can, as it is in his interest to do so. Expecting this level of care from some uninterested third party is stretching incredulity to the limits!

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I too am in disput with BCT over a repossession. Although my situation is a bit different.

 

I bought a car from them on a 4 year agreement. I paid faithfully every month and at the end of the third year my personal cicumstances changed and I found myself homeless and seriously struggling with money. After missing 3 payments they sent another company to repossess the car. I refused as I knew after paying over a third of the amount owed the car was 'protected goods' and the needed a court order to repossess.

 

A week later they came back again. I wasn't at home but the car was so they just broke into it took it anyway. When I telephoned BCT they said I had abondoned the car and they had a right to take it!!!??

 

I got nowhere with BCT so took it up with my local Trading standards office who wrote to them requesting that they pay me back what I have paid under the terms of the agreement. This is just short of £5000.

 

Not only have they refused to pay me back but they are now demanding another £2000 from me.

 

So to sum up I have paid £5000 to BCT, had my car illegally repossessed and they still want £2000 from me.

 

Trading standards have been very helpful, but not very forceful with BCT.

 

I am now at a stage where I don't know what to do next. I have given up hope of getting my £5000 back and seriously cannot afford to throw away another £2000.

 

I really sympathise with you. BCT are a harsh and unreasonable company.

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What you outline is a travesty - if the police could be bothered to do something and not hide behind the usual 'it's a civil matter', it would be difficult for them to be charged with thefy (as it was technically their vehicle until the final payment). However their actions have deprived you of the enjoyment of your purchase, and that means having to resort to the courts. Have they instituted any action against you for recovery? I seriously doubt whether TS will do anything positive, but I do think you need to get this in front of a Judge ASAP - so raising an action against BCT for depriving you of the benefit of your vehicle witrhout due regard for 'proper' recovery methods - effectively disadvantagfing you.

 

Why not calculate what you have paid them to date, and sue for this amount, plus interest. (I'm assuming your vehicle is now resold?). So as long as you are in the same situation as you were before the purchase, I see no reason why you cannot force this issue.

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Thanks for that Buzby. Yes I have calculated what I have paid (£4,783) and am considering taking this to court. Just never having done anything like this before am unsure where to start etc and definately not in a position to afford a solicitor.

 

They haven't taken any action to recover the balance...yet. TS seem to think that was a reaction to my pointing out that they have broken the terms of the agreement and they actually owe me money. Incidentally according to their letter the car was sold for £400.

 

Am new to this site and not sure whether I should start a new thread for this or how to. So if i've invaded anyone else's thread...apologies

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We're sort of elongating this one - so once you raise your action start a fresh thread! When calculating the charges, make sure you don't load them, as this makes it more likley that they will meet you in court to fight it. The English Small Cliams track is the way to go and your costs will be reasonable. Good luck!

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  • 2 years later...

Hi,

 

I am in a situation with Mercedes Benz finance where I leased car for three years. I decided to take the option of px and using the car as a deposit for my next vehicle, but due to bad credit on my file they declined my application.

 

Also, they sent me a notice of intentions which I happily filled in and gave them two options, one of which was to either px my vehicle or extend the current agreement for another three months. I don't understand why they choose to refuse to reply to any questions. They send a standard letter which does not answer my questions.

 

The total amount payable under the agreemtn is £17,783.28 of which I have paid £10,469.30, which is two-thirds of the total paid.

Can Mercedes Benz forcefully repossess the car or can I take them to court. Also, before I forget, in Oct 08 I sent them two payments by mistake, and to this day they have never acknowledged receipt nor have they written to me to advise that they have received a duplicate payment. I have chased them for an explanation, but they never respond.

 

Can anyone give me some advice on what I can do?

 

Thanks,

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Your duplicate payment should not have been lost, it will still go into the pot - and you'll find that you are paying in advance due to the extra payment made. However, you should at least get them to confirm they recieved the payment and was correctly credited to your account.

 

It's a Lease (not HP) so the 50% rule won't apply here. Depending on the agreement they will probably have to take YOU to court if you don't keep up payments. Since a leased vehicle can never become your own property, it will eventually have to go back to them or their agent (dealer) at the end of term.

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  • 1 year later...
It's a Lease (not HP) so the 50% rule won't apply here. Depending on the agreement they will probably have to take YOU to court if you don't keep up payments. Since a leased vehicle can never become your own property, it will eventually have to go back to them or their agent (dealer) at the end of term.

 

Hi

 

I've read the whole of the thread (I know it's old) but rather than making a new thread I thought I'd ask my question here in hope of some help.

 

I'm thinking of getting a car on finance (HP). The car will be around £13,000. My Plan is to pay a £6,000 cash deposit then finance the remaining £7,000 which (with interest) will be about £8500 to pay back.

 

What's this 50% rule you spoke about? Straight from the off I will have paid almost 50%, so after 50% is it harder / more complicated for the car to be repossessed if payments are missed because over 50% has been paid?

 

I, of course, tend to see out paying the monthly payments but I don't have a crystal ball and can't see into the future in case any unforeseen circumstances pop up financially.

 

I just can't get myself into a position where (if the car was repossessed) I could be in thousands of debt and have no car OR car repossessed, not much debt/no debt but had paid thousands into the car (because of the 6k deposit + monthly payments) and have no car.

 

EDIT - Just read on another site "You've paid half so they can't repossess without court order" - is that correct?

 

When is half way? Half way between the amount financed with the interest or half way between the price the car was bought at?

 

 

Thanks

Edited by EvilxElf
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The car has a full declared value, in your case £13,000. You will be making a deposit of £6,000 and financing the amount remaining, £7,000. All these amounts must be shown on the agreement (not that the vehicle is 'worth' £7k).

 

So, you need to make payments of just over £1,000 (the exact amount depends on the rate charged to finance) so that (say) the full cost of the agreement is £14,500 - and you need to pay £1,500 on TOP of your deposit to reach 50%.

 

As you discovered, having paid 50%, it cannot be repossessed without court action. The other possibility is that having paid 50%, you can terminate the deal and hand back the keys. Be guided by the small print as yo what the agreement and termination rights are. You can ask for a copy of the terms to read in full before you formally sign.

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The car has a full declared value, in your case £13,000. You will be making a deposit of £6,000 and financing the amount remaining, £7,000. All these amounts must be shown on the agreement (not that the vehicle is 'worth' £7k).

 

So, you need to make payments of just over £1,000 (the exact amount depends on the rate charged to finance) so that (say) the full cost of the agreement is £14,500 - and you need to pay £1,500 on TOP of your deposit to reach 50%.

 

As you discovered, having paid 50%, it cannot be repossessed without court action. The other possibility is that having paid 50%, you can terminate the deal and hand back the keys. Be guided by the small print as yo what the agreement and termination rights are. You can ask for a copy of the terms to read in full before you formally sign.

 

Many thanks for the reply.

 

So I need to just need to make sure the car is valued at £13,000 on the agreement and not £7,000 in order to make it so I have around £1,500 to pay to hit 50%?

 

Handing the car back after 50% is a nice option to have but wouldn't really apply to me because the car should always remain worth more than the finance owed (because of the £6,000 deposit) as the car will be only do around 8,000 miles a year so shouldn't depreciate too quickly.

 

If I ever wanted to sell the car privately (whilst financed is still owed) could that be done if the buyer was to pay the finance company the whole amount off including interest then pay the remaining amount to me? Again, this is not something I would want to happen, but would like to know it's a choice if ever needed.

 

Thanks

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DVLA will have the car flagged as having a 'beneficial owner' (the Finanace House). Any change you make to the V5C will be reported to the BO - not what you;ve done, just that there has been a change in their records. Siumilarly, HHPI database will show the vehicle is financed.

 

So, in the scenario you outlined you would first need to seek the lenders permission to sell, which they may not unreasonably deny. however they may be required to make payment to a third party (solicitor) in exchange for a letter formally giving them title. This will protect the buyer until the FH remove the inhibitions on HPI and the DVLA registers.

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