Black Horse Hire Purchase - Urgent Help Needed Please !!!

[cosalt]

sorry, just to go back to your first post, you said you stopped paying in august. Do you mean you paid your last payment in august or do you mean you did not pay august's payment ?

[Guest suziedarkness]

All payments were upto date. Black Horse wanted another £254 to terminate. when questioned they said it was a liability fee. Once I had requested CCA they agreed to waive the fee but I had already started investigating unenforceability because of their unprofessionalism. Now we are at stalemate.

 

Been told its unenforceable, just need to find out why so I have a defence.

 

suzie

[cosalt]

Sorry to be thick, where is the link to the hp agreement scan?

[cosalt]

IMO provided what you have said is correct, you are in a win / win situation.

 

If the agreement is unenforcable you have a right to all your money back, if it is enforcable you had a right to terminate the agreement.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Cosalt,

 

Link here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/168115-mathematicians-needed-help-credit.html

 

Agreement on post #13

 

suzie

[cosalt]

Ok I have had a look at your agreement, it is incorrect.

 

The acceptance fee is normaly paid with your first payment, in your case it was not which must mean it was spread over the whole period. There is nothing wrong with this, but then it should have been included in the total amount of credit ( so £6295 should be £6440 )

 

I am sure this makes it unenforcable simply because the amount of credit is incorrect and this is a key term of the agreement.

[atwozee]

I’d forgotten that bit – I got so caught up in the repayment thing that it just slipped past me – They added it to the total charge for credit but not the amount of credit – I said that earlier in the other thread.

I had started a letter for you suzie – I will finish it now and post it up tomorrow.

Well done cosalt

[Guest suziedarkness]

Hey Guys, thank you so much, I owe you big time.

 

I knew something was not quite right, just wasnt sure what and its been given me such a headache!!

 

As this acceptance fee has been spread over the term of the loan, surely that Wilson case becomes relevant?

 

Thankyou in advance for the letter Atwozee, I would be stuck without your help.

 

Suzie x

[atwozee]

Just checked the CCA and s9(4) states:

For the purposes of this Act, an item entering into the total charge for credit shall not be treated as credit even though time is allowed for its payment

So that covers the Payment Fee of £75.00 but it doesn’t cover the Acceptance Fee of £145.00 because that has clearly been included in the repayment schedule over the term of the loan – correct?

Only one small problem – BH could argue that the Acceptance Fee was discharged within the first instalment of £150.27 and therefore time has not been allowed for its payment and it cannot therefore be construed as credit – so the amount of credit would not have to include the extra £145.00 – if the instalments were less than the Acceptance Fee then you would have an argument – does that make sense?

I was assuming that the repayment schedule discharged the total amount owing in equal portions but there is no requirement for BH to do this – so this is where the argument for unenforceability falls down.

Sorry Suzie – although the figures are confusing I don’t think it could be said that any of the prescribed terms are actually mis-stated for the purpose of s127.

I think you need a plan B – This whole thing started on the back of BH demanding a termination fee – I would write to them and tell them that you attempted to terminate the agreement in accordance with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 but was told there would be a fee – you then asked for a copy of your agreement to clarify the terms and believe that no such termination fee is payable. Ask them to collect the car as soon as is convenient and to remove the default because it was registered when they were in default of your s79 request.

[cosalt]

atwozee, unfortunately you are correct, basically suzie's agreement works out to be 1 x £5.27 + 59 x £150.27 as the payments. This works ut equal to the £6295 + the quoted interest. The £145 was the balance of the first payment so not part of the amount of credit.

 

Sorry if I gave you false hope.

 

Saying that you were still within your right to VT the agreement with no penalties so go get them !!

[Guest suziedarkness]

They may be able to say that but it doesnt actually say that on the agreement, surely the agreement should have stated that the first payment included the £145.00 or, as in my daughters and my friends case, the admin fee was added onto the 1st instalment which is what I originally thought.

 

Plus, I put the figures into Dualcalc and it gave an APR of 17.3% not 16.5% as stated on the agreement.

 

Im still not happy to just let it go now. I still think I have an argument.

 

suzie

[cosalt]

Suzie I think it depends what you are looking to achieve. If you just want to get them to accept the VT and collect the car, removing any defaults etc then I think this is easily achievable.

 

However if you are looking to get all your money back on the basis of the agreement being unenforcable I think you may struggle. The key figures are correct, and even though they are being a bit devious with the acceptance fee I don't think they are doing any thing wrong, two of my HP agreements after me looking at them today were done in the same way as yours.

 

It is of course up to you, what ever you decide I am sure you will get all the help and support you need on here !

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thats strange Cosalt because I have bought a few cars over time on HP and I have always been charged the admin fee with the first payment which is why I got so confused with this one.

 

I am not fussed about getting my money back but I could sure use keeping the car.

 

Suzie

[atwozee]

Plus, I put the figures into Dualcalc and it gave an APR of 17.3% not 16.5% as stated on the agreement.

 

They can be up to 1% out if it’s in your favour – I looked at this before. And APR is not a prescribed term with regards to s127(3)

Unless you can get them to admit that the Acceptance Fee was spread across the whole term then I can’t see how you can argue that it is credit and should be included in the term amount of credit.

[cosalt]

Thats strange Cosalt because I have bought a few cars over time on HP and I have always been charged the admin fee with the first payment which is why I got so confused with this one.

 

I am not fussed about getting my money back but I could sure use keeping the car.

 

Suzie

 

Suzie, I agree, in the past most of my hp agreements have had an acceptance charge on top of the first payment, however my two most recent ( current ) ones have been done the same way as yours.

 

Not sure how you would keep the car without continuing to pay, unless of course the just forget you still have it !

[Guest suziedarkness]

Cosalt,

 

Are your HP agreements with BH?

 

Suzie

[42man]

Suz...just posting this for easy reference and some other useful threads - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/176604-more-black-horse-finance.html

[cosalt]

Hi Suzie, no, although I thought I had, it turns out my BH agreement is not hp but a fixed term loan agreement, which has no VT rights.

 

The only way you can get out of yours is by proving that they have charged you interest on the £145. As Atwozee said at present they could say you paid this £145 included in your first payment of £150.27.

 

I wonder if you could request they send you a calculation as to how they arrived at the repayment / interest amounts.

 

I think you need to know the flat rate they applied, this should give the game away. Who knows where they got the 14 % rate from as it is nowhere near that.

 

As it happens I think they did charge you interest on the £145, and I will tell you why - Most dealers will work out and quote your payments based on a flat rate interest, they then work the quoted payments back into the agreement and come up with a resultant APR. Look at how yours comes out -

 

Credit amount £6295 - Total interest £2576.20 - flat rate 8.19%

Credit amount £6440 - Total interest £2576.20 - flat rate 8.00%

 

I reckon they worked out your payments based on a flat rate of 8% to include the £6295 & the £145 just forgot it on the paperwork, you just need to prove it which will be difficult.

 

As atwozee said, its just a shame that the payment is more than the acceptance fee or it would be clear cut.

 

Try and find out the true flat rate and all should be revealed.

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks 42man

 

suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

Hi Suzie, no, although I thought I had, it turns out my BH agreement is not hp but a fixed term loan agreement, which has no VT rights.

 

The only way you can get out of yours is by proving that they have charged you interest on the £145. As Atwozee said at present they could say you paid this £145 included in your first payment of £150.27.

 

I wonder if you could request they send you a calculation as to how they arrived at the repayment / interest amounts.

 

I think you need to know the flat rate they applied, this should give the game away. Who knows where they got the 14 % rate from as it is nowhere near that.

 

As it happens I think they did charge you interest on the £145, and I will tell you why - Most dealers will work out and quote your payments based on a flat rate interest, they then work the quoted payments back into the agreement and come up with a resultant APR. Look at how yours comes out -

 

Credit amount £6295 - Total interest £2576.20 - flat rate 8.19%

Credit amount £6440 - Total interest £2576.20 - flat rate 8.00%

 

I reckon they worked out your payments based on a flat rate of 8% to include the £6295 & the £145 just forgot it on the paperwork, you just need to prove it which will be difficult.

 

As atwozee said, its just a shame that the payment is more than the acceptance fee or it would be clear cut.

 

Try and find out the true flat rate and all should be revealed.

 

 

Ok, I have had the figures checked and they have definately included the acceptance fee in the calculations as Cosalt has mentioned above.

 

I am going to take Cosalt advice and ask them how they arrived at the figures in the hope they will shoot themselves in the foot. I think its best to try this softly softly approach first.

 

Could someone out there please help me compile a letter to send them, I am really rubbish at anything like that and dont want to say the wrong thing.

 

I would be eternally grateful, please?

 

Suzie

[cosalt]

Hi Suzie as I said before, you won't be able to prove they have spread the acceptance fee and charged interest unless you ask them how they worked out your repayments and with what flat rate.

 

I would send something simple like this -

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Re Account no XXXXXXX

 

I refer to the above account number and would be grateful for some information relating to it.

 

You quote the interest is calculated using a flat rate of 14% (not the APR)but that appears wrong, could you advise me what flat rate was used to calculate the interest and how it was calculated.

 

I also note that there is an acceptance fee but it wasnt paid with the first payment. Could you advise me when this is to be paid.

 

I thank you in advance for your co-operation and look forward to your prompt reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

Thanks Cosalt,

 

I apprecite it. Will get it sent of tomorrow.

 

Suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

Ok, written to Black Horse almost 3 weeks ago and as usual they are true to form and have failed to reply.

 

Any ideas where I go from here?

 

They must know they are in the wrong as they have not bothered pursuing their legal threatenings from a few months ago.

 

Suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

Following on from my last post, still no word from Black Horse until today where they have sent a letter saying that I must return the vehicle or else they will obtain a court order.

 

 

I dont know what to do next. I know the contract is unenforceable, I have paid them bucket loads of money and I dont want them taking the car back.

 

What should I do now?

 

Can someone advise how I should reply?

Please please please

 

Suzie

[Guest suziedarkness]

bump