RBS CCA request refused due to CCJ

[Penfold92]

Have you started legal action yet? If not gather as much evidence of these variations to the facts as you can! Once you start action they will clam up and it is difficult to get stuff out of them... I managed to get various answers by writting to different departments until I got back what I was after...

 

Penfold

[JonCris]

Penfold it would be bad enough if it was to some extent a case of the righthand not knowing what the left is doing but it isn't.

 

It's a deliberate policy of at least one large bank as evidenced by internal documents obtained by a litigant in person.

 

They will produce agreements which are not originals but are conjectured & reconstructed with T's & C's included which have no relation to the originals & allow them to charge PJI (Post Judgement (contractual) Interest) None of which was in the original document

[Penfold92]

Hi JC,

 

I did not want to say that on open forum...but...I do not need to now!

 

That is why the SAR is important (IMHO) as this makes them provide what the have, if they then try to add something you have arguements against it as breaching the DPA etc. However that did not help Sparkie in that thread I posted above...In fact it was their get out of jail free card...very sad really they are allowed to do that...

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

Going back to my IVA, the documents clearly showed what was included and how etc. So when we settled the dividends were also clearly shown. Problem in your case D&D is that you mentioned you failed in it. Does that mean it goes back to the open market again? Once again your IP should be earning their money here and explaining the concequences to you. (forgive my spelling)

Edited May 20, 2008 by Penfold92
spelling lol

[Penfold92]

Penfold it would be bad enough if it was to some extent a case of the righthand not knowing what the left is doing but it isn't.

 

It's a deliberate policy of at least one large bank as evidenced by internal documents obtained by a litigant in person.

 

They will produce agreements which are not originals but are conjectured & reconstructed with T's & C's included which have no relation to the originals & allow them to charge PJI (Post Judgement (contractual) Interest) None of which was in the original document

 

Is that not construded as Fraud mate? Did the LIP take further action?

[JonCris]

It's already been mentioned on a public forum ............ this & others a number of times

 

Also I understand that matters are about to take on a new impetuous;)

[JonCris]

In anyone else's book it would be considered fraud but not in the eyes of our regulatory authorities .................... apparently............... but then they don't know the extent of it ............... yet

[Penfold92]

Surely...eventually....someone somewhere will make the DJ's realise this is not acceptable? I know that if Cobbetts turn up in a feww weeks and try this I will be in contempt of court by the end of the day, cause I ain't having it...*throwing rattle firmly out of the pram!*

[DandD]

Thanks Guys,

 

But what I really need to know is who I need to contact to get confirmation that this original Guarantee is no longer enforceable.

 

We questioned the statement 'all of our indebtedness to the bank is covered by this guarantee' to the solicitor and all they said was that they have never been instructed to act on it by the bank.

 

Should I write to the Recovery Department. In our 'Diary Event History' it mentions that the debt has been discharged.

 

We have sent a long letter to the Recovery Department in Telford. I talked to them on the phone last week and they denied having recieved the letter. I ex[plained that it was sent 'recorded delivery' and quoted who signed for it. They then admitted that they had in fact received it but it had been passed on to thier solicitors.

 

Would you all like to see a copy of my letter?

[Penfold92]

Do you still have the original guarentee agreement? That will say what it covered or not and under what regulation at the time? Also you mentioned Debbie went to a solicitor who drew up a contract, do you have that? The letter you sent would not be any harm.

 

Penfold

[DandD]

Hi Penfold

 

All we have is a photocopied page that we received from the banks solicitor last week. This is dated 1st July 1992, there are no signatures on it, but our Business Loan Account was opened in 1991. Bit strange.

 

Getting on to the contract.....This was actually done by Debbie's Mums solicitors. I'm pretty sure that they will still have the original and probably all the documents relating to the return and loss of parts of the deeds where the bank paid Debbie's mum compensation.

 

The problem is, that Debbies Mum is unaware of what's going on. If she finds out whats going on I could lose important parts of my body!!

[Penfold92]

The problem is, that Debbies Mum is unaware of what's going on. If she finds out whats going on I could lose important parts of my body!!

 

 

That is a problem indeed! Who was this arranged with? I assume the bank and Debbies mum? Have you SAR the bank itself yet? Since it is RBS we know they store info past 6 years, however, they may say this is only for statements on microfilm... Have they or are they trying to say they have the guarentee against all debts then, or are you just panicing because of what you got back from the SAR to theri solicitors?

 

OK can you not say "you are sorting out the old paperwork and noticed you did not have copies of the guarentee that she signed? If the bank ever tried anything funny you guys would have no proof. Does she still have any..."

 

Worth a try? :?:

[DandD]

The contract was drawn up between Debbies parents and the bank. It was all done by Debbies parents solicitor. This was done prior the money being lent and was even suggested by the Bank that they take legal advice befor signing.

 

We have S.A.R the bank and we have had some information back. I have had a FULL copy of all of my Personal Current account statements going back to March 1992. This makes me pretty sure that they keep a lot more than they are letting on.

 

The bank have not mentioned the guarantee at all.

 

It was only after our S.A.R to their solicitors that it came to light.

 

If it becomes really necessary I'm sure that we can get a copy of the documents from the solicitor, but I'd rather the bank confirm that the guarantee is discharged.

 

As part of our S.A.R. the bank provided a 'Diary History Event'. In this it states that the debt had been discharged.

 

Please see attached page. If you look at the 16/6/98.

 

 

 

Duncan

Edited May 20, 2008 by DandD
Date change

[DandD]

Paul

 

I've been reading your threads. Just to let you know. This 'Diary History Event' account number is not one of our old accounts or even one of the accounts that they changed it to, but a 'Router Account'

 

Duncan

[DandD]

For general information and the fact that I will be refering to it quite a bit here are the relevent pages of our so called 'Router Account'. Still not too sure what this is. I have blanked out all but the last 2 digits of the account numbers. I'll try to explain what each of these are in a minute.

 

I have left out a few pages as all they say are credits of £300 per month, which we were paying as per the CCJ.

 

By the way, the scribbling was done by them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2008 by DandD
Spelling

[DandD]

regarding the account numbers....

 

These are what the account numbers were and what they changed to (only the last 2 digits)

 

You need to remember that we had no idea that the account TYPES had changed. We were informed in 1997 that the accounts had been moved to Edinburgh, and that the account numbers had changed. We didn't find out until May this year that the account TYPES had also been changed.

 

Anyway, here they are for future reference (if your still interested)

 

D&D T/A A Business Current A/C xxxxx10 Changed to xxxxx88

 

This seems to be the main one on the 'Router Account'

 

 

 

D&D T/A A Business High Interest Savings A/C xxxx29 Changed to xxxx18

 

D&D T/A A Business Loan Account A/C xxxx37 Changed to xxxx26

 

Duncan Personal Current A/C xxxx61 Changed to xxxx23

 

Debbie Personal Current A/C xxxx45 Changed to xxxx45

 

 

I'm not sure if I should say 'changed to'. As the original accounts were closed and the new accounts were opened with totally different amounts.

 

Need to get my ducks in a row. I'll give you these figures and copy statements in a bit

 

Duncan

Edited May 20, 2008 by DandD
Spelling again

[andrew1]

Totally amazing Duncan. The scribbling out makes me laugh..it's a computer print out for heavens sake, you can't alter a computerised transaction by scribbling it out. It's like tipexing out a word on a pc screen...how ridiculous. Surely there must be someone on here from RBS who can pm you as to what they were doing? What a battle, but take my hat off to you for getting it all together like this..good luck with the mother-in-law!

[DandD]

Thanks Andrew

 

Still managing to keep hold of both of them at the moment.

 

Duncan

[DandD]

I hope that someone can help with this...

 

This is something that is happening while I am compiling information against the bank.

 

Due to our apparent debt to the bank I have had a Charging Order Issued against me.This was granted. This happened last month, but I did put up a bit of a fight to the Judge. This was without having any of the information that I now have. The Judge was pretty good and ordered the Banks Barrister to inform his client that the original CCJ was likely to be set aside.

 

The original CCJ judgments were for ME to pay £290 per Month and DEBBIE to pay £10 per Month. We have both been in default of this for around 18 months. This is why they are going for the C/O.

 

Debbie has a seperate C/O due to her default on the CCJ.

 

If I pay Debbies arrears of around £200 before the C/O court hearing date and carry on paying the £10 per month. Does that mean she has not defaulted and the C/O cannot be granted?

 

Need a quick answer, This goes to court on 6th June

 

Thanks

 

 

Duncan

Edited May 20, 2008 by DandD

[DandD]

Here's some more stuff...

 

From the 'Data Event History' I asked the folowing questions:-

 

 

DB

 

 

Devon

 

 

Phone

 

 

 

10th April 2008

 

Recovery Manager

The Royal Bank of Scotland

Credit Management Services

Kendal Court

Ironmasters Way

Telford

TF3 4DT

 

 

Your Ref: CMxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/RJ

 

 

Dear Sir

 

Further to the recent supply of information that you hold on me I have some issues that I would like you to help me with. The information that you supplied was a ‘Diary Event History’ log, I will list the queries in date order:-

 

 

Could you please explain what ‘Ledger Debt at Transfer’ means and how you arrived at these figures?

 

Could you please provide the amounts owed on each of the accounts at date of transfer 21/06/1996

 

My High Interest account xxxxx18 that was originally account number 1xxxxx29 sort code xx-zz-18 was in credit. I have enclosed a copy of the last statement dated 21st August 1995.

Could you please tell me when any money was withdrawn from this account, who authorised the withdrawal and why was it withdrawn?

 

On the 11/03/1997 a File was sent to PCU. Please provide a copy of this file.

 

On the 16/06/1998 a letter was sent. Your reference is xxxx45.0SHDTR.001. Please provide a copy of this letter.

 

On the 03/07/1998 a letter was sent. Your reference is 00xxxx45.001 LIT3/L7DC01. Please provide a copy of this letter.

 

On the 10/08/1998 and the 14/09/1998 a request was made to the Branch for a file. Please provide a copy of this file.

 

On the 11/01/1999 it states that I made an offer of £8500. This is inaccurate. The offer was for 15% of the debt. I never did receive a reply to this offer.

 

On the 26/01/2000 it states ‘Validation agreed – WR part funded 57.52%’. Could you please explain what this means?

 

On the 06/03/2001 it states that there was a keying error and that I was being charged 80% interest instead of 8% interest. This was identified by an Auditor, could you please provide me with the name of this Auditor? Could you also provide me with the information on the action taken to correct this mistake?

 

On the 22/02/2005 it states ‘Man list of credits and debits sent to fladgates see link’. Please provide a copy of these credits and debits.

 

On the 23/02/2005 it states that the outstanding debt is £58913.54 and that interest is accruing on this balance. By this date I had repaid £21,300. Why was this not taken off of this debt? Why was I still paying interest on the full amount?

 

On the 03/11/2005 it states that I am ‘now paying interest only’. This implies that I have paid off the Capital. Could you please tell me how much of this debt was Capital and how much was interest and charges?

 

On the 10/01/2007 it states ‘Ad-hoc letter Doc attached to SPL032’. Please provide a copy of this letter.

 

On the 27/02/2007 it states ‘Call from solicitor. Advised that they have had no contact with the customer therefore they will instruct trace. The property on system that was in their name was sold in 2005 so doubt they are still at address listed.’ This information is inaccurate. The last contact that we had with the Solicitors was by email on the 04/04/2006 (I have enclosed a copy of this email) which clearly shows our address of 2 xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Exxxxxxxxx. We rented this property from December 2001 until December 2006. When we moved, we had the post re-directed for 6 months and the management company also had our forwarding address in xxxxxxxxxxx. We were easily contactable, but received no communications from Fladgate. Also, where it states ‘The property on the system that was in their name was sold in 2005’ is incorrect. We did not have a property in our name, the property we were renting was not sold by the owners.

 

 

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

 

 

D

Edited May 27, 2008 by DandD

[DandD]

Here's the reply:

 

 

 

 

 

I have replied to this. I'll post it tomorrow.

 

Thanks

 

Duncan

Edited May 20, 2008 by DandD

[DandD]

Here we go with my reply:

 

 

 

 

 

Phone xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

 

27th April 2008

 

Recovery Manager

The Royal Bank of Scotland

Credit Management Services

Kendal Court

Ironmasters Way

Telford

TF3 4DT

 

 

Your Ref: CMxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/DSAR/RJ

 

 

Dear Sir

 

Further to your letter dated 24th April 2008 which attempted to address the points that I raised in my letter dated 10th April 2008 that you have supplied in response to my Data Protection Act information request dated 13th March 2008. The disclosure of personal data is incomplete in that at least the following information/documents are missing:-

 

To help you, I will list my original account numbers and descriptions and the account numbers that you changed them to. This has been very confusing until recent information has been supplied.

 

 

Account Number Sort Code Title Changed To Sort Code

xxxxx10 1 xxxxx-18 Deborah &

Duncan T/A 0xxxxx88 xxxxxx21

Xxxxxxxx Xxxxxx

 

xxxxxx29 1xxxxx-18 Deborah &

Duncan T/A xxxxxx18 xxxxxx21

Xxxxxx xXXxxx Business

High Interest Account

 

xxxxxxx37 xxxxxx-18 Deborah xzzzzz &

Duncan T/A xxxxxx26 xxxxxx21

Business Loan Account

 

xxxxxxx61 xxxxxx018 Duncan xxxxx23 xxxxxx21

Current Account

 

1. ‘Ledger debt at Transfer’. You admit that the amount quoted on my DSAR front sheet was incorrect. You say that this is due to the information being sourced from an incorrect screen. Can you confirm where this information came from and is this the figure that you provide in your accounts to Companies House as an asset of the Banks?

 

 

2. I asked you to provide the amounts owed on each of my accounts at date of transfer. You have not provided this. Please do so. In your letter you state ‘we have ordered statements for all accounts and the correct figures will be advised on receipt’. Why do you need copy statements in order to calculate the correct debt? How do you know that the ledger debt at transfer is incorrect? Please supply a copy of all statements.

 

 

3. High Interest Account 0xxxxxx18 that was originally account number xxxxxxx29 sort code xx-xxx-18. You have ignored my questions regarding this account. However, I have received statements from ‘Retail Regulatory Risk’ for account number xxxxxxx29. The statement clearly shows that this account was in credit by £22.98 on 27 June 1996, on this date all of the credit balance was transferred to Retail Credit (I have enclosed a copy of this statement). The account was closed on 16th July 1996, the balance was ‘NIL’ (I have also enclosed a copy of this statement). This account becamexxxxxx18. According to the CCJ Issued against us this account was overdrawn by £22.90. Why was money withdrawn from account xxxxxxxx29 without my knowledge? To which account was this money transferred? Why was the replacement account xxxxxxxx18 overdrawn when I had no access to this account?

 

 

4. You have stated that due to the passage of time you are unable to retrieve data sent to PCU. You have stated that you are unable to supply letters as requested. You state that you are unable to supply branch files as requested. You state that you do not retain a paper file. I would like to point a out that your department have had control of my accounts since 14th March 1997 as detailed on the DSAR front sheet. Your department issued a CCJ against me dated 9th November 1998 for a total sum of £57,680.27. You have regularly corresponded with your solicitors, Fladgate, regarding me and my accounts. You carried out a property search on me in 2007. On 19th July 2007 you collected expenditure and income details. This year you applied for an AOE and have applied for a Charging Order on my home. Can you confirm that other than the ‘Diary History Event’, you hold no further information about me, whether it is held on paper, electronically or any other format? You also state in your letter ‘we believe that the information that we hold is correct as recorded we have no note recorded of the offer being 15% of the debt’. As you have admitted that items in the ‘Diary Event History’ are incorrect, then you cannot be referring to this. You must have other records, under the Data Protection Act 1998 you must provide these records to me.

 

 

5. There was an audit carried out on my account in 2001. This found that my account was being incorrectly charged with 80% interest instead of 8%. Can you confirm that despite the magnitude of this error, no records have been kept? I also asked for details of what action was taken to correct this mistake, you have ignored this. Can you now supply me with these details?

 

 

6. In my previous letter I asked the following question. ‘On the 22/2/2005 the Diary Event History states ‘Man list of credits and debits sent to fladgates see link’. Please provide a copy of these credits and debits. You have not done so.

 

I must inform you that under the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998, you are obliged to keep data on file for 6 years, so I expect to receive at least 6 years data. However, if you hold data beyond 6 years, under the above act, you must supply it on demand. If you no longer hold data beyond 6 years, I would like a signed declaration from your Data Controller and a copy of all documents pertaining to its proper disposal.

 

Accordingly, I have to inform you that you have not complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

Yours Faithfully

Edited May 21, 2008 by DandD

[DandD]

I phoned them last week. They told me that I will get copies of all the statements, but my letter had been passed to their solicitors. Let's see. I'll give them a few more days!

[2Grumpy]

I like the way that despite having entered your interest rate as 80% instead of 8%, they are sure that the information that they entered about your F&F offer was correct.

 

I can't get over the arrogance of these people

 

Grumpy

[Penfold92]

I like the way that despite having entered your interest rate as 80% instead of 8%, they are sure that the information that they entered about your F&F offer was correct.

 

I can't get over the arrogance of these people

 

Grumpy

 

Exactly! As for the charging order, I am not sure they work like that. But if you turn up and defend at least you have a shot at it. Can you show regular payments ish? If so then argue that they do not need it. Bring up the issue with Debbie's mum's property and the difficulty she had in getting her deeds back for doing you a favour and you would not like to be in a similar situation.

 

Got to go to work, but will try to hunt round for some charging order info or threads,

 

Penfold