Barclays debt situation - please help!!

[devotchka02]

Hello,

 

My name's David and I hope I've got right forum. I've posted this message elsewhere on this site. But I hope there are people here with specific knowledge who may be able to help as I'm involved in a massive dispute over a complicated debt situation with Barclays. In summary I was a victim of credit card fraud/ identity theft in 1996. Somebody impersonated me to obtain a duplicate of my Barclaycard while I was living in Australia and they used it to open a store account card with Debenhams. The culprit blew £1,300 and left me to carry the can. Except that it lay hidden for six years until summer 2002 as I closed that account shortly after going down under.

 

A debt collection agency, Credit Solutions, were appointed to chase the Debenhams debt. They eventually found me and registered libellous things with credit reference agencies which effectively accused me of being a master criminal. Barclays saw this and immediately foreclosed on me, confiscating my current account and calling in a £5,000 personal loan at 24hrs notice which I couldn't afford to pay back.

 

The Debenhams thing was resolved easily as I was quickly able to prove my innocence of that crime. But Barclays refused to reinstate my accounts and insisted on trying to have me prosectued for non-repayment of the personal loan. I ended up having to go through a debt management programme from summer 2002 and made monthly repayments over the next six years.

 

Credit Solutions were appointed by Barclays to deal with that as well and I had nightmares with them. They kept trying to add thousands of pounds in interest and other punitive charges on to the debt in contravention of the debt agreement. And then around Christmas 2007 they began making threatening obscene phone calls featuring foul language and demands for more and more money. I took legal advice from a solicitor and was told that what Credit Solutions were doing was so far beyond the law that any debt agreement was null and void and that I should refuse to make any further payments.

 

So I stopped, having reported Credit Solutions to the police, and heard nothing for months. But in July 2008 I received a threatening letter from a different debt collection agency, Wescot, claiming I still owed Barclays £5,000. What seems to have happened is that Barclays have taken the debt back from Credit Solutions and reset it back to the beginnning. Although that is not entirely clear because further correspondence from Barclays first said the debt was £4,300 and then £3,700. It seems like they're making it up as they go along.

 

I've been advised that the Consumer Credit Act (2006), which came into effect in April 2007, makes all debt agreements involving unsecured personal loans and credit cards made before that date enforceable in law. The events I'm describing have taken place over a 12-year time-frame while the debt agreement with Credit Solutions dates from summer 2002 Barclays and so should be covered by said act.

 

But Barclays, in their latest letter dated September 4 2008, claim no such act exists and that they are allowed to purse a debt with impunity, effectively forever, and that the debt is whatever they decide it is. I'm absolutely seething about this but have struggled to find people who give advice about what to do. CABs in Scotland, where I live, have been decimated, the few debt care agencies left up here have waiting lists months long and I'm been quoted fees starting from £175 per hour to appoint solicitors to take Barclays on. I therefore hope there's somebody on here who might be able to point me in the right direction.

[miss muppet]

Poor you, what a horrible situation! You've come to the right place however, forget about spending lots of money on fighting this, you can do it with the help of CAG.

 

Think you've got the bit about all debts being enforceable before 2006 a bit mixed up. The truth is that all agreements made before 2007 are covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which means that the unsecured personal loan you had with Barclays can be CCA'd. Read up on the many threads on Consumer Credit Agreements and you will soon get the idea. Your first step should be to send a formal request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act for a true copy of the executed agreement associated with your account. If it is a DCA who is collecting the money, then this should be to them. You should send it with the £1. fee by postal order and do not sign the letter, you can either digitally sign (some info somewhere on the site on how to do this) or type your name. Send this by recorded delivery and start counting the days. If after 12 + 2 days (allowing for postage) they haven't complied - you can stop paying. Expect them to make lots of blustering noises if its a DCA like they have to refer back to the OC (original creditor) but basically it makes no difference.

 

If they do come back with something you can scan it on to a site like photobucket and then transfer it here for others more knowledgeable to look at. If what they supply does not comply, it doesen't mean the debt disappears but it is unenforceable.

 

You should also SAR the OC sending £10 postal order, there are template letters here and this should let you see what sort of naughty charges they have been adding to your account which all adds to the evidence against them.

 

I would also make formal complaints to your local Trading Standards and the Office of Fair Trading, should think in your case the Financial Services Authority might be interested also.

 

Read around the site and you will soon find your way around and gain confidence. Good luck:)

[slick132]

Hi Devo,

 

I'm not going to d/w with this tonight as it's too late and my eyes are closing!

 

Where else you have posted this to avoid duplication.

[questioning]

Devotchka02 Posted here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/146530-have-you-received-threatening-5.html

post 85.

Edited September 7, 2008 by questioning

[devotchka02]

Hello all,

 

Many thanks for the advice so far. The possible solutions sound every bit as complicated as the situation itself. But I will follow the steps outlined and take further guidance. I did post the same message in a section regarding loan debts that may be more than six years old. I really appreciate the help and feel more confident that I am going in the right direction and that there is a case to be made against Barclays. I am on a waiting list to see a debt counsellor in the Govan area of Glasgow. I hope that may shed some further light on what to do. In the meantime I will make a donation to the site and would be grateful for any further help people can give. Thanks again,

 

David

[slick132]

Hi Devo,

 

What exactly was the type of personal loan a/c. As Miss Muppet says, a CCA request should be sent to Westcott using Letter N from here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-bailiffs-advice/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html enclosing the £1 fee.

 

You should also send an SAR to Barclays requesting all data for BOTH a/c's. Use the letter here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/516-1-data-protection-act.html and enclose the £10 fee.

 

Send both letters by Rec'd Del'y or get a free Certificate of Posting from the PO when you send them.

 

Keep copies of all letters. Keep a log of all phone calls rec'd from anyone. If Westcott or any DCA calls, refuse to answer the security questions, tell them they should only communicate in writing and hang up.

 

We'll have to see what has happened over time to leave you allegedly owing so much when you have been paying towards the a/c's.

[devotchka02]

Hello again all,

 

Many thanks for the continued support. I'm in the process of the following the steps outlined. I had already contacted Financial Ombudsman Service before looking on here. They said they would take the case up if Barclays couldn't come to agreement over this issue with me. But before I put it in their hands I need to speak with someone face-to-face who can run me through everything. I've an appointment with a debt counselling service in Govan later this month, made back in July such is the backlog of cases, and hope that might help make things clearer. By then I will have sent the SAR and OC letters and read around the subject in greater detail using this site. Thanks again for your help. Kindest regards,

 

David

[devotchka02]

Hello again,

 

I'm following the steps outlined above. I feel though it may be useful to describe the entire sorry mess and see what people think. I was hit with two debt notices in summer 2002 which ultimately caused Barclays to close my accounts with them. Both debts were being chased by Credit Solutions, a debt collection agency, and involved the non-payment of goods bought in Britain while I was living in Australia.

 

The first one to arrive was a debt notice for £1,300 accrued on a Debenhams store account card managed by the Capital One Bank. Somebody impersonated me to obtain a duplicate of my Barclaycard credit card and used it to open the store account in my name with Debenhams in June 1996.

 

Goods including towels and towel rails were apparently bought, so the Capital One Bank claimed, using the store account card at Meadowhall in Sheffield while paint and other DIY products were purchased from a Debenhams Group shop in the Ridings Centre in Wakefield. At that point I was about to matriculate as a third year undergraduate student at a university in Melbourne.

 

It was not possible to trace the culprit. West Yorkshire Police and the Capital One Bank both said the address in Wakefield cited by whoever did this turned out to be rented accommodation and the landlord had not kept records of who might have lived there in the mid-1990s. I was also told that placing CCTV cameras near shop check-out points was not common practice in Britain in 1996 and so identifying who this person might have been was impossible.

 

But it has been widely suggested that the fraudster may have been a rogue Barclaycard or Barclays employee. The alarm systems that should have gone off failed to sound over two people using the same credit card at the same time 12,000 miles apart. It has been suggested that these safety measures could have been over-ridden by an unscrupulous employee. I phoned Barclays and Barclays with change of address details for my new home in Melbourne. For this fraud to work it needed somebody to know that I was out of the country and know my date of birth and mother's maiden name. Hence the suspicion of a rogue bank employee.

 

I closed the Barclaycard account down soon after arriving in Australia and switched to a Commonweath Bank credit card which offered a lower rate of interest. But sadly it seems the account was not closed quickly enough to stop the store account being fraudulently opened. And the act of shutting the Barclaycard account down ironically meant the crime lay hidden for the next six years until Credit Solutions tracked me down in summer 2002. The last Barclaycard statement I received in Melbourne did not show any dubious transactions, but I bet the fraud would have been obvious had the account stayed open.

 

The Debenhams debt was due to be time-barred under the Consumer Credit Act (1974) and hence the efforts made to trace me. Once they had done so I was very quickly hit by Credit Solutions with a second debt notice, for £550, owed on a store account card at a jeans trading company in Wakefield’s Ridings Centre. I can’t remember the store’s name but think it was owned by the River Island Group.

 

I had such a store card in 1993 while studying but never received another when it expired two years later. It seems somebody may have intercepted it as a series of transactions were made on that card over 1995 and 1996 while I was away travelling the world and living in Australia. I was so busy enjoying those overseas adventures that I never gave that missing store account card a second thought at the time.

 

Credit Solutions, having apparently spent six years looking for me, thought I was guilty and registered libellous things against me with the credit reference agencies. Barclays took one look at all that and, without bothering to check the allegations, immediately confiscated my current account and called in a £5,000 Graduate Loan taken out in 1999.

 

Barclays refused to reinstate the accounts even though it was proved beyond all doubt that I couldn't possibly have committed those crimes. There are records on file with the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office among many others documenting my travels up to February 1997. But Barclays insisted they were going to prosecute me from non-repayment of the £5,000 Graduate Loan and a £1,300 overdraft (which made the total debt owed to Barclays, including interest, some £6,700) at 24hrs notice.

 

I subsequently went through a debt management programme organised by Monton Debt Care in Dewsbury over the next six years. But I now realise the agreement should have been regarded as void as long ago as 2005. Barclays have admitted in a letter dated September 4 2008 that further interest and other punitive charges were added to the debt in contravention of that agreement.

 

What actually did make me contest the legality of the debt agreement was a series of abusive phone calls made by Credit Solutions to my home phone and mobile numbers in late 2007 and early 2008. I challenged them over breaches of the Communications Act (2006) - which supposedly makes such threatening and obscene phone calls illegal.

 

Credit Solutions admitted in a letter of apology dated January 2008 to illegally making abusive phone calls and that at least one member of staff had been sacked as a result. I was advised to consider the debt agreement void and stop paying. I was further told that if Credit Solutions kicked up a fuss that I should challenge the legality of the debt agreement as the company had admitted to wilfully breaking the law.

 

But I heard nothing from Credit Solutions. They never questioned the withholding of payment and I regarded the matter as finished. What seems to have happened is that Barclays have taken the debt back from Credit Solutions, reset it back to the beginning and farmed it out to another debt collection agency called Wescot. They sent me a debt collection notice on July 9 2008.

 

This situation is not entirely clear though as Barclays can’t make their minds up over what sum is allegedly owed. Figures varying from £3,700 to £4,300 have been cited and letters from them contain obvious contradictions. It also seems that Barclays have little or no paperwork regarding this case, which probably explains why they can't provide a consistent version of events.

 

Customer Relations Manager Margaret Debnam told me in a phone conversation last month that Barclays were not aware of any agreement involving Monton Debt Care. The letter dated September 4 2008 makes it clear that Barclays have only been able to establish the existence of such an agreement through records held by Credit Solutions. I’ve been repeatedly told that any pre-existing debt is unenforceable given the breach of contract over interest charges and how Credit Solutions admitted to breaking the law over the abusive phone calls.

 

What do people think?

[slick132]

There are several issues here.

 

1) Whether the OC had any right to make you pay for the fraudulent use on your a/c when you were clearly abroad.

 

2) If you've been paying off the debts until recently, why is the debt still so large. Possibly down to interest or penalty charges, but maybe management charges made by Monkton.

 

Pay no more and see what the SAR and CCA requests turn up. See what advice you get from the Govan debt counsellor.

 

Given the circumstances of the fraudulent spending, I think you should identify the rogue transactions and set about getting them credited back to the a/c with retrospective interest adjustments.

 

Was the fraudulent use on the Debenhams a/c refunded or have you repaid some or all of that too.

[devotchka02]

Hello,

 

Thanks for the continuing support. I've found it very helpful so far. The SAR and CCA requests were both sent today (Wednesday). With regard to the fraudulent spending on the store accounts in the mid-1990s, both of these were completely written off and I paid nothing towards them at all. Capital One Bank, who I think administered both of them, could not identify the culprit/s and neither could West Yorkshire Police. But they accepted I was out of the country at time the transactions were made and Capital One Bank decided to drop the matter.

 

The whole debt issue therefore involves Barclays. They acted over-zealously, in my view, in closing the accounts without bothering to check whether the allegations of criminal activity were true. And rather than reinstate the accounts when I was conclusively proved innocent, they insisted they no longer wanted me as a customer regardless and tried to take me to court as the foreclosure meant I had no means of repaying the loan.

 

I still regard that as incredibly harsh and grossly unfair. I ended up being severely punished for crimes I didn't commit. I realise with hindsight I should have contested the decision as I've since been told by a financial advisor that Barclays should only have frozen the accounts pending the outcome of an investigation instead of closing them. I also now realise that the row over the legality of the debt agreement is one I should've had with Barlcays at least three years ago considering the breach of contract they admitted to in their letter of September 4 2008. The appointed with the Govan debt counsellor is due soon and I hope that will add further clarity to the situation. Thanks again for all your help.

 

David

[slick132]

As Barclays are most unlikely to help you get a satisfactory and fair resolution to this, I think you should prepare a summary of events ready for the FOS.

 

Are you aware of any charges that were being made by Monkton. If not, perhaps it may be necessary to send them an SAR too.

[devotchka02]

Hello again,

 

Many thanks for the continuing help. I do have a package of material ready to send to the FOS. I first contacted them back in July when this issue first blew up again. They said they would investigate if I had not had a satisfactory response from Barclays after eight weeks. That period is due to expire shortly and the bank have yet to make anything like a reasonable response which answers any of the points raised so far. I'll wait to see what the debt counsellor in Govan says before contacting the FOS to activate their investigation.

 

I agree Barclays are very unlikely to sort this out. They seem to have little or no paperwork on file relating to these events and what little they do know, they've admitted to obtaining recently from Credit Solutions in response to my complaints. And the inconsistenices in letters from Margaret Debnam suggest Barclays are just making it up as they go along.

 

As for Monton Debt Care, I'm not aware of any additional charges that may have been levied. Tony Salmon is no longer a licenced debt councillor and I believe Monton Debt care ceased trading sometime in 2005. I spoke with Mr Salmon last month regarding this case and may do so again depending on what happens when I see the debt counsellor in Govan.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Kindest regards,

 

David

[slick132]

So if Monkton Debt Care didn't add on charges, who do you think did to leave so much still owing.

 

Or do we have to wait for replies to the SAR.

[devotchka02]

Hello again,

 

Hope you're well and thanks for the continuing support. Barclays claimed in their letter of September 4 2008 that interest and other punitive charges were added in contravention of the debt agreement brokered by Monton Debt Care until at least early 2005. It does not specify when exactly that ended but does claim that all additional charges were refunded. I am not sure whether to believe that and may have to wait for the SAR details for confirmation either way. But it may also be the case that Credit Solutions have not passed on all the money to Barclays.

 

By my reckoning, and according to records disclosed to me by Credit Solutions at Christmas 2007, the remaining debt owed at the time I disputed the agreement's legality was £2,700. Barclays claim this figure is anywhere from £3,700 to £4,300 but will not say how they worked this out. At the very least £1,000 in repayments is not accounted for in this figure. Either Credit Solutions did not pass on the whole sum or Barclays have added a ton of other punitive charges. My appointment with the debt counsellor in Govan is next week so I should have a clearer idea of what's what with all this after that. Thanks again for all your help.

 

Kindest regards,

 

David

[slick132]

Hi Devo.

 

It sounds like the info required by the SAR is the only way you'll find out what's happened here, so let's hope you get it soon.

 

[devotchka02]

Hello again,

 

Just a quick post this time to report that a letter from Barclays arrived today claiming the matter is too complicated for either their customer relations or debt recovery divisions to deal with. Apparently staff from an internal complaints section are going to mount an investigation and claim they will report back some initial findings within 10 working days. I'm not sure whether that's a good a bad thing. Thanks for all your help,

 

David

[slick132]

Hi Devo,

 

If they report back in 10 days thats defo a good thing.

 

They normally take far longer, so fingers crossed for a quick and substantive response.

 

[devotchka02]

Hello again,

 

Hope you're all well. I'm just posting a fairly brief update regarding a visit to see a debt counsellor in the Govan area of Glasgow. The basic upshot is I've been advised to sit tight until Barclays try to do something, which could be a while yet. The staff at Money Matters in Govan Road told me they had never come across a case like this in all their years dealing with debt-related issues. For a start I'm English by birth and the debt problem originated in England and so would be dealt with under English law if it were ever to get to court. That complicates things from their point of view as they normally deal with people local to the Govan area. And they've also apparently never had a case where the client is seeking to challenge the legality of a debt agreement or one that is as complex and goes back over so many years as mine.

 

The advisor carefully considered all the paperwork and listened to my story. She consulted with a supervisor and they both agreed that Barclays had a case to answer, especially over the interest and other charges added to the debt in contravention of the agreement brokered by Monton Debt Care. She said that if the debt agreement was void and unenforceable in law then it was this act that probably made it so. She suggested the Financial Ombudsman Service and the Office of Fair Trading would be very interested in this case and recommended that I follow up with them eventually. But before then, she said I should let Barclays conduct their internal investigation and see what it turns up. She thinks my letters and paperwork may have prompted Barclays into realising they might have done something wrong, thus explaining why the matter is no longer in the hands of either their debt recovery or customer relations divisions.

 

She suggested that I should wait until the outcome of that internal Barclays investigation is known before doing anything else. If they still persist in trying to enforce the debt after all that, then the FOS and OFT should be brought in. I was warned that it could take weeks or months for Barclays to reveal their intentions as it was agreed that their correspondence showed inconsistences which would need to be resolved, like exactly how much money is allegedly owed and how that debt was accrued, before they could try to enforce any action. In the meantime, the 12 working day period for any paperwork relating to the consumer credit agreement for the Graduate Loan first taken out nearly a decade ago is about to expire. I have not received anything from either Wescot or Barclays. Should I send a letter pointing out the deadline under the Consumer Credit Act (1974) has passed?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

David

[slick132]

Hi Devo,

 

Sounds like a very useful and encouraging meeting for you.

 

Don't bother chasing re the CCA yet. Give them, say 30 days in total, by which time you may have heard more from Barclays (or not!).

 

Perhaps chase Barclays if they fail to tell you their "initial findings" when the 10 days is up.

[devotchka02]

Hello again,

 

Hope you're all well. I'm sadly having to post again on here asking for advice as I've now had a response from Barclays' internal investigation team. And the letter I received today (Tuesday October 14) is the most stupid and utterly ridiculous thing I've probably ever read. It first of all states that this is the bank's final response and if I'm not happy with it then it's down to the financial ombudsman and the courts. And what follows in the next several dismissive paragraphs seems to have been deliberately intended to make sure that's the avenue I've got to go down.

 

The letter states Barclays Bank and Barclaycard have deleted ALL paperwork relating to this case. They literally have NOTHING and the letter admits the that internal investigation team possess no evidence whatsoever which would prove anything either way. This is apparently because, so the letter claims, they are not legally obliged to hold records for longer than six years. So all the Barclaycard stuff was thrown out in 2002, as my account was closed in 1996, and everything relating my Barclays current account, graduate loan and the complex debt situation has been chucked away over the last few months.

 

I find that absolutely outrageous. At the very moment one part of Barclays was trying to chase me for an alleged debt over the summer, another division of the same institution destroyed all the documentation which could have either proved their case or exonerated me. And get this: The letter states that, regardless of the lack of evidence, Barclays still thinks I'm guilty and they intend to have me prosecuted anyway!

 

The letter sets a deadline of December 1 for me to report Barclays to the financial ombudsman or sue them, after which they will take legal action against me (with a thinly-veiled threat that they will be looking to have me sent to prison). I'm absolutely appalled. Apparently, so the letter says, the only thing they MIGHT be able to prove is that I once defaulted on the graduate loan. And that's only a MIGHT, and the letter does not say how that could prove that if there are no records left. But, of course, the only reason why I defaulted was because Barclays confiscated my accounts and all my money, meaning I couldn't meet repayments as there was no means to do so!

 

Their final point covers my defences. They refute the claim of breach of contract, but don't say why, only that this is an issue they think should be decided in court. And with regard to the Consumer Credit Act (2006), the letter states they would contest any attempt to have any monies written off under any provisions of that act. And it would be for me to prove in court which sections of the act applied to my case, why any monies should be written off and convince a judge of that.

 

The tone of the letter is aggressive. Aside from everything else, I found it disturbing to read as the choice of language is highly menacing. My immediate thought is that Barclays are chancing their arm. They realise they haven't got a case against me. The fact that literally everything relating to my bank and credit card accounts has been deleted means they can't comply with the SAR request and can't produce any credit agreement I may have signed regarding the graduate loan either. So rather than admit defeat and write off the what they think they might be owed, they'll quite happily allow it to go the financial ombudsman or to court as they think they'll have a 50-50 chance of winning, which in their eyes is better than admitting they've completely screwed up. Or am I being too cynical? Thanks again for any advice you may be able to provide.

 

Kindest regards,

 

David

[miss muppet]

Well David, I must say I'd be interested to know how Barclays are going to produce evidence against you in court when they apparently have destroyed all their own records. They can be as menacing as they like but without the necessary paperwork they are stuffed. Hand this latest piece of drivel over to the FOS, at least that will cost Barclays £400 fee for FOS to investigate. This is basically a frightener, hold with it, don't panic and they will be the ones with egg on their faces.

[slick132]

Hi Devo,

 

Without seeing the actual letter, it's hard to comment properly.

 

I don't believe for one moment that they've destroyed the data you refer to but this may not matter just now.

 

Have you received a reply to the CCA request or is this supposed to be it. You really need clarification from them on this. If they have no Credit Agreement, they cannot enforce the debt.

 

Your case is quite convoluted but the simple fact is that, without a valid CA, the debt cannot be enforced in a court.