New Here. Need Help with Cap Quest

[Mockenrue]

Mockenrue, you might find the following thread useful.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/158682-capquest-dont-let-them.html

 

Also, I noticed you posted on another thread that you feel your thread might be in the wrong forum. If you want it to be moved to the Capital one Forum, just click on the red triangle at the left and ask a mod/site helper to move it for you.

 

Thanks for that. When I click on the triangle it says "Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts." Should I use it anyway to get the thread moved? I don't want to wind the mods up when I haven't been here five minutes!

[citizenB]

Mockenrue, I have clicked and requested the shift on your behalf, but signed in my name:D

 

perhaps if 42 man notices if he returns, perhaps he can arrange it for you.

[saintly_1]

Thread moved to Capital One Forum as requested

[Mockenrue]

Thanks once again citizenB and saintly_1.

 

Right, here are the documents:

 

Covering letter:

 

 

Terms (front and back of the same sheet):

 

 

Application certificate:

 

 

Template of Statement of Default:

 

 

Template of Default Notice:

 

 

Leaflet:

 

[Mockenrue]

Can anyone comment on these documents?

 

Cheers

[citizenB]

The terms and conditions are current. Not only do they say so in their covering letter the default charges shown are £12.00 and they didnt come into force until about 2006.

 

The agreement.. actually says APPLICATION certificate. From what I can see there appears to be none of the prescribed terms as per 42 man's post earlier.

 

The default notice might not be valid inasmuch as some of the CAPITALISED text should be underlined and it isnt. It should also allow you 14 clear days from receipt to remedy any breach in the Default Notice letter they only give you 10 days.

 

These are clearly templates and just because they say they sent them.. I would think they would have had to send you originals ?? therefore they should have copies with your personal details on them.

 

This is only my opinion, hopefully 42 man will look back in on you.

[Mockenrue]

Thanks citizenB. What I have posted up is everything they sent me. Even though I'm still on the steep learning curve with all this stuff I was very surprised to receive those two template documents and not originals!

 

What about the fact that they completely ignored my request for a Deed of Assignment?

[citizenB]

:)I am not sure about the Deed of Assignment, I think I have read somewhere that they dont have to give you a copy of that. However, I am also of the understanding that they should have advised you that they were passing the debt on to someone else. Or that the new DCA/owner should inform you. I do know that a Notice of Assignment will need to be produced should a DCA/new owner want to take court action.

 

With OH's CAP 1 saga, Capital one passed it over to DEBITAS who are CAP1's collection agents. DEBITAS wrote to him saying they were no longer dealing with the account and someone (they didnt say who) would be contacting him. This letter was received some 18 days after it was posted and there was a payment due the following week. I wrote to DEBITAS asking for confirmation that they were no longer dealing with the account and that payment was not to be made to them. The next communication he received was from CAPQUEST who threatened legal action. So at no time was a Deed or Notice of Assignment ever produced.

 

HTH

 

PS. You could if you wanted to send a Subject Access Request, and be specific in asking for things such as the Notice of Assignment, Default Notice along with statements and anything else you feel you need to see. IF they dont produce it under that banner then you could make a complaint to the Information Commissioner

[Mockenrue]

Thanks again for the response. The initial letters from Cap1 themselves and later Debitas both said things such as "we may place your account with, or sell your account to an external Debt Collection Agency..." but no actual formal notification was received by me at all when this actually happened. The first I knew of it was when I received the red 'Creditor's Notice' from Cap Quest!

 

I still have the original DN and SoD letters, so I'm surprised that they've sent me copy templates. I'm pretty sure I have all my statements too, so I won't be sending them a S.A.R. just yet and regardless of the outcome of the CCA situation I'll be claiming back the unlawful charges. If it weren't for their extortionate interest rate I wouldn't have defaulted in the first place.

 

Looking through various other Cap1 threads on here it would appear that I have been sent the same letter and documents as quite a few other people. What I'm not sure about is exactly which of the many example letters I should use in reply, and how exactly to word it to suit my case.

[citizenB]

I have had a quick look back over your thread. Who exactly has your account now is it CAPQUEST ?.

 

If you write to Capital One advising them that they have NOT fulfilled your request in that they havent provided an enforceable document you will just receive a letter back saying Yes we have and we will be unable to provide you with anything different.

 

I think perhaps you need to get this out of the hands of CAPQUEST and back under the control of Capital One. A letter to them perhaps saying that having received documents from Capital One in respect of a CCA 1974 request you are now contesting the enforceability and as far as you are concerned the account is in dispute as they clearly havent provided you with what you asked for.

 

I guess it all boils down to what you want to happen.

 

Penalty charges on the account. You will have to dig your heels in to get ALL of them back. Cap1 will argue the toss that their charges are fair and quote huge sections of OFT regulations at you. This of course is their interpretation and not fact. So with a bit of persistence you should be able to reclaim everything back. Will this make a huge difference to the account and bring it back under control ?.

 

Do you want to perhaps make a full and final settlement at a lesser amount of the outstanding balance. Will you need a reduced payment plan with interest frozen for a period of time? Do you want to take it further and perhaps contest the document in court ?

 

Answers to the above will have an affect on the type of response to send.

 

Other CAGers will have advice as well I am sure.

[citizenB]

removed post.. incorrect information.

[Mockenrue]

I have had a quick look back over your thread. Who exactly has your account now is it CAPQUEST ?.

 

Yes, that's right. They have been hassling me for some time which is how I found my way here.

 

If you write to Capital One advising them that they have NOT fulfilled your request in that they havent provided an enforceable document you will just receive a letter back saying Yes we have and we will be unable to provide you with anything different.

 

Indeed, that's what I expect will happen having read several other Cap1 threads on here.

 

I think perhaps you need to get this out of the hands of CAPQUEST and back under the control of Capital One. A letter to them perhaps saying that having received documents from Capital One in respect of a CCA 1974 request you are now contesting the enforceability and as far as you are concerned the account is in dispute as they clearly havent provided you with what you asked for.

 

OK, I will do that. Cap Quest wrote to me to tell me that the account was on hold for twenty eight days (see post eighteen above) while they obtain the necessary information. I'm sure that as soon as those twenty eight days are up the threatograms will resume and I would far rather deal with Cap1 as they are the OC.

 

I guess it all boils down to what you want to happen.

 

Penalty charges on the account. You will have to dig your heels in to get ALL of them back. Cap1 will argue the toss that their charges are fair and quote huge sections of OFT regulations at you. This of course is their interpretation and not fact. So with a bit of persistence you should be able to reclaim everything back. Will this make a huge difference to the account and bring it back under control ?.

 

Yes - I fully intend to reclaim all the charges back. It won't make a huge difference to the account but yes, it will bring it back under control.

 

Do you want to perhaps make a full and final settlement at a lesser amount of the outstanding balance. Will you need a reduced payment plan with interest frozen for a period of time? Do you want to take it further and perhaps contest the document in court ?

 

If they fail to come up with a valid CCA then the answer to the last question is 'yes'. If they don't then yes, I will certainly need to look into a payment plan of some sort and when funds allow consider the F&F settlement route.

 

Other CAGers will have advice as well I am sure.

 

All of which will be most welcome.

[citizenB]

 

I think perhaps you need to get this out of the hands of CAPQUEST and back under the control of Capital One. A letter to them perhaps saying that having received documents from Capital One in respect of a CCA 1974 request you are now contesting the enforceability and as far as you are concerned the account is in dispute as they clearly havent provided you with what you asked for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, I will do that. Cap Quest wrote to me to tell me that the account was on hold for twenty eight days (see post eighteen above) while they obtain the necessary information. I'm sure that as soon as those twenty eight days are up the threatograms will resume and I would far rather deal with Cap1 as they are the OC.

 

 

I doubt very much that CapQuest will be able to provide you with the CCA and as they are now aware you have requested this direct then chances are the next letter you will receive will be either from Debitas or Cap 1.

 

In which case you just stick the record back on...."Where is my CCA, the one you have provided is not what I asked for".

 

If they get too persistent then you can complain to Trading Standards/FOS for the threatograms, passing over to DCAs whilst in dispute or if you send a SAR letter then you can complain to the Information Commisioners Office for lack of compliance with the Data Protection Act.

[Mockenrue]

Thanks again

 

I want to get a letter off to Cap1 straight away informing them that what they have sent me is unsatisfactory. I've read many similar threads on here which include letter suggestions, all of which are very useful, but I'm a little confused as to what exactly I should cite as the reasons why the document is unenforceable. I know they'll just try to fob me off but before I take the plunge I want to get my facts straight and get it right first time!

[Mockenrue]

Anyone?? As I understand it I have to formally notify Cap1 that the account is now in dispute if I am to rely on that when CQ inevitably start hounding me again. Is this right?

 

I've read dozens of Cap1 threads on here over the past few days trying to get my head around all this, and whilst there's clearly an abundance of invaluable expertise and knowledge on the site my head's spinning with information overload. This isn't helped by the fact that on one or two of those threads there appears to be a degree of uncertainty as to the enforceability (or otherwise) of some of the CCA paperwork people are getting back from Cap1, and to what exactly constitutes an invalid agreement. I've found several excellent 'in dispute' letters but naturally I want to base mine on one that best suits my case.

 

To the best of my understanding, the CCA paperwork they've sent me could be unenforceable because:

 

 

1. The T&Cs are current and not from when the account was opened
   
2. This is a pre-contractual application form and not a Credit Agreement
   
3. The document containing the signatures does not show any prescribed terms as per 42man's post earlier
   
4. The Creditor's name and address are nowhere to be seen on the 'agreement'.
   

I know that in all probability that when I write back to them they'll just respond with a template 'Oh yes it is (valid)' etc. reply but in order to properly dispute the account I'm fairly sure I have to do this.

 

Lastly, should I cc CQ on the reply to Cap1?

 

Sorry for all the questions, and thanks again to citizenB (you've been great) but this is my first reply to a CCA request and I need more advice and reassurance.

 

Cheers

[citizenB]

I will have a look for a suitable letter for you.

[citizenB]

Here you go, I found this one on Help48's thread, it appears to be doing the rounds.. Provided by car2403 for Magda, who has passed it on etc, If you want to hold fire for a couple of hours then I will look and see if there is anything else for you... However, if I dont feed OH.. he will leave home......hmmm now there's a thought

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/148387-help48xxx-mbna.html#post1564423

 

 

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an application form and your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

[citizenB]

Post 51 in the link below was provided by 42man.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/150055-robinson-way-about-appear-3.html#post1724079

[Mockenrue]

As ever, you're an absolute star Thank you again.

 

I knew I'd seen letters like that somewhere before, but I guess because of my recent focus on Cap1 only threads I couldn't put my finger on them again. I will edit to suit and send tomorrow. Just one more question - should it be sent to CQ or direct to Cap1?

 

CQ have now written back to me with this:

 

 

Stapled to the back of it was the same 5444 application form that Cap1 sent me previously - and nothing else.

 

Not only that, they've started trying to call me again - twice on my mobile, twice on my work number and once this evening at home.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Mockenrue
spelling

[citizenB]

Who sent you the documents, did they come via Capital 1 or CapQuest?

 

If from Cap1. Send the original to them with a copy to CapQuest with a covering note. Along the lines of Thank you for your letter of blah blah. Having taken advice, I find the document sent to me were not compliant. Please find enclosed my reply to Capital 1.

 

If from CapQUest.. then send them the original and copy in Capital 1 in the same manner.

 

Dont forget to put "Account in Dispute" on these and any future letters you send to them.

Edited September 25, 2008 by citizenB
Spelt a word wrong, the incorrect spelling was rude :(

[Mockenrue]

The documents I posted up in post #29 came directly from Cap1. All CapQuest have sent me is the above letter (post #44) with a copy of the 5444 application form (which was included in the docs Cap1 sent me) stapled to the back and nothing else.

 

Letters going off straight away. Thanks once again for your continued help.

[citizenB]

If you havent typed up your letters already, have a look at post 29 by castlebest in the following link. There could be something you can incorporate into your letters to make them more forceful.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/148293-paragon-finance-enough-enough-2.html#post1729615

[citizenB]

Thank you.

[Mockenrue]

*Update*

 

Right, I've received replies to my letters to Cap1 and Cap Quest. To recap, shortly after my last post in this thread I sent the non-compliance letter to Cap1, and a copy if it with a covering letter to CQ. CQ also got the phone harassment letter and the calls duly stopped. Last week, I received this acknowledgement to the phone harassment letter:

 

 

Shortly afterwards I received (on the same day) these replies from CQ and Cap1 in response to my non-compliance letter:

 

 

Finally, I now have this from CQ - again in response to my harassment letter (although the mention of the prescribed terms in the sixth paragraph suggests that it may also be referring to the non-compliance letter):

 

 

I'm concerned about the fact that they've mentioned my written and verbal correspondence from July and August, which took place prior to my discovering CAG and learning what I know now and realising my rights. I was right in the midst of my panic-stricken 'say anything to get them off my back' phase, and as you can see from the fourth and fifth paragraphs I called them and made a token payment - actions which, with the benefit of hindsight, were mistakes. I knew no better at the time but this has now come back to haunt me and I fear that they've now got me on the back foot a bit with this one.

 

Would the experts out there care to have a look at these letters and suggest what course of action I should take next and how I should go about composing appropriate replies (if any)? With the exception of the last one, these letters would all seem to be pretty standard replies from what I've seen on other threads. All assistance is, as always, greatly appreciated.

Edited October 8, 2008 by Mockenrue
spelling

[Mockenrue]

I forgot to mention that the 'copy of my agreement' mentioned in the above letter is merely another photocopy of the 5444 application form provided by Cap1 previously and shown in post #29 here. Cap Quest have now sent me this twice.