CL Finance/cohen claimform - old HSBC managed loan debt

[Guest mediaseller]

I have had a County Court claim registered against me from Howard Cohen Solicitors for CL Finance.

 

 

This is for my debts which they bought from HSBC Bank and the debts were an overdrawn current account and a managed loan.

 

 

In December 2007 CL wrote to me proporting to have bought the debt from HSBC and I received a similar letter from HSBC (allegedly), claiming the same, however I continued making payments to CL and in the meantime requested a copy of the original HSBC loan agreement and proof of assignment of debt, to which they did not reply. I did enclose a cheque with the letter for a normal one month's payment which to this day has not been cashed.

 

 

I occasionally suffer from mild depression which sometimes leaves me forgetting things and recently I missed a few payments, so at the end of July I received a county court claim from Nothampton CC requesting full payment of £8,000 approx.

 

 

On receipt of the summons I contacted CL to remedy the situation offering to catch up in one payment however they refused to listen stating that it was too late to withdraw the claim but I could have it withdrawn if I paid 3 stage payments to clear the balance.

 

 

I have acknowledged the summons at court and stated that I intend to defend the claim against me.

 

 

Meanwhile I sent a SAR to CL for all relevant documents which they are relying on as evidence and sent a CPR to Cohen's for likewise.

 

 

CL have sent a pack containing my balance sheet with them, statements of my accounts with HSBC, a blank template of transfer of rights and a half completed copy of the same TOR form and a copy of the original managed loan agreement with HSBC.

 

 

Amongst my copies of HSBC statements I have been sent statements of someone else's loan account with HSBC. (Breach of data protection here methinks).

 

 

The original HSBC Loan agreement has my house address correct however my two forenames are the wrong way round with my correct signature at the bottom. Does this void the agreement?

 

 

I was sent a default notice from HSBC when they owned the debt but I have never received a default notice or reminder from CL Finance despite them lying to me over the phone stating that they sent reminders.

 

 

Cohen's still have not replied to my CPR request and it's ten days since I sent it by special delivery.

 

 

I have to get my defence in by Monday 1 September 2008 so what is my best defence here and can I ask for a stay since Cohen's have not replied thus frustrating my case?

 

 

Please help URGENTLY since I must get my defence in the post by Friday this week.

 

 

Thanks to all.

 

 

P.S. It's strange that within a few months of claiming back my bank charges (with the help of CAG), HSBC decided to sell on my debt don't you think?

 

 

:-|

[MARTIN3030]

You dont need to send an sar for docs they will be relying on in evidence since you can request that and it will need to be shown in their defence.

Under guidelines they cannot move on the debt if its in dispute although if its being collected on behalf of the original creditor they can of course send it back to them.

It seems you have acknowledged the debt in your asking for time to pay.

Can you answer a couple of questions.

1 How much was the original/alleged debt for ?

2.How much (if anything have you paid off it )

3.Did you dispute charges before making arragement/admitting the debt?

[Guest mediaseller]

Hi,

I have not asked for more time to pay I am disputing it.

 

The original debt on the managed loan account was fro £10k and about £8,500 is left owing on that, howevver where I thick CL Finance have slipped up is that they issued the summons in the details of my HSBC current account on which the balance is about £295.

 

I disputed the charges in May 07 based on my HSBC current account and was paid back my charges later that month.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Paul:(

[Blossomandebony]

Hi,

I have not asked for more time to pay I am disputing it.

 

The original debt on the managed loan account was fro £10k and about £8,500 is left owing on that, howevver where I thick CL Finance have slipped up is that they issued the summons in the details of my HSBC current account on which the balance is about £295.

 

I disputed the charges in May 07 based on my HSBC current account and was paid back my charges later that month.

 

Thanks so much.

 

Paul:(

 

If you have proof that the o/d balance on your current account was £295 when they closed it, and the Particulars of Claim specify this account only, I would pay the £295 by recorded delivery, then base your defence on the simple fact that you have paid the debt.

 

As far as I know, CL can't change the POC just because they've made an error.

 

BAE

[Guest mediaseller]

Hi,

 

In fact on further trawling through the statements of my current account (which CL provided, not Cohens), I have found that my HSBC current account (which ends in 395) was closed with a ZERO BALANCE on 20 February 2007 and the summons was issued at 28 July 2008.

 

The Assignment Notice eledges that the assingment for that account took place on 28 Septemebr 2007 so how can assignment be carried out on a closed account.

 

Thanks.

Paul

[Blossomandebony]

Hi,

I have found that my HSBC current account (which ends in 395) was closed with a ZERO BALANCE on 20 February 2007 and the summons was issued at 28 July 2008.

 

So you have absolute proof that there is no debt on this account, (the account that they specify in their Particulars of Claim) - even better. Your defence is ' the account was closed on 20th February 2007 with a zero balance.' Then you attach a copy of the statement which proves the closing balance was zero. (Simplistic, I know, but you get the gist).

 

Obviously, CL have made a mess of the Particulars of Claim and they will most likely withdraw their claim once you get your defence in. It's then likely that they will re issue a claim with the correct account numbers / details, but by that time you will have a better idea of writing a defence, and you'll have access to a whole load of help on here.

 

BAE

[Guest mediaseller]

Hi and thanks for the help.

 

By the way, like I said, they appear to have purchased an account which did not exist so can they purchase the other account and re-apply to the court?

 

Since I also have proof that the managed loan account was closed on 20 February 2007 presumably they could not buy this debt since it no longer exisits.

 

The only thing that does exist is a copy of the agreement with no typed reference to the account number. Just a hand written reference to the number ending in 277.

 

Also could I claim back the £95 per month I had been paying to an account which did not exist? Perhaps sue them in return.

 

Thanks again.

Paul

Edited August 28, 2008 by mediaseller

[MARTIN3030]

If you have proof that the o/d balance on your current account was £295 when they closed it, and the Particulars of Claim specify this account only, I would pay the £295 by recorded delivery, then base your defence on the simple fact that you have paid the debt.

 

As far as I know, CL can't change the POC just because they've made an error.

 

BAE

 

 

 

They would need permission to submit an ammended defence-which would have to be done on notice.

[MARTIN3030]

I am going to move this thread into the debt legal forums for you.

[Guest mediaseller]

Thank Martin3030.

 

How do I navigate to this forum or can you send me a link please?

 

Thanks again.

Paul

[Guest mediaseller]

Hi,

 

 

I have posted a thread elsewhere in this forum on this subject and I'm now ready to file my defence on-line this weekend so I would like someone to check the defence posted here and suggest any changes which I should make if any.

 

 

The situation was the Howard Cohen Solicitors acting for CL Finance issued me with a summons for a balance of £8.5k on a bank account which was closed and leaving a zero balance 7 months prior to CL Finance acquiring the alleged debt.

 

 

The defence is as follows:

 

 

In the Northamton County Court

Claim number: xxxxxxxxx

 

Between

 

CL Finance Limited- Claimant

 

and

 

xxxxxxxxxx – Defendant

I xxxxxxxxxx, of 1xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, am the Defendant and make this statement.

Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

The Claimant's claim in their own words “is for a sum of £8,463.83 being monies due from the defendant to the Claimant under an overdrawn bank account originated with HSBC Bank plc under reference xxxxxxx and assigned to the Claimant on the 28th of September 2007, notice of which has been given to the Defendant”.

Deed of Assignment.

It has been alleged by the Claimant that the aforementioned bank account under reference xxxxxxxxx was assigned to the Claimant at 28th September 2007, however despite a request from myself to the Claimant in the form of a SAR (Subject Access Request), for a copy of a Deed of Assignment, non has been delivered to me.

Particulars of the aforementioned overdrawn bank account.

The HSBC bank account under reference xxxxxxxxxxx to which the Claimant refers was closed at 20th February 2007 leaving nothing owing.

Conclusion.

I the defendant respectfully ask the Court to strike out the claim against me since the aforementioned bank account was closed at 20th February 2007 and did not exist on the alleged date of of assignment being 28th of September 2007.

Statement of Truth.

 

I, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed .....................xxxx xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Date xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks thanks in anticipation.

Paul:)

[creditcardmug]

There must be more to the story than this, CL wouldnt have issued the claim for a non-existant debt, have you sent a request for information under CPR18?

[Guest mediaseller]

Yes it's the truth.

 

I sent in a CPR18 and Cohens did not reply however a SAR sent to CL direct resulted in them sending me copies of my bank statements which clearly show tha the account was closed down 7 months before assignment was done.

 

Account closed in Feb 07, assignment done on Sept 07.

 

Clearly HSBC have sold CL a duff account.

 

regards

Paul

[creditcardmug]

Yes it's the truth.

 

I sent in a CPR18 and Cohens did not reply however a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent to CL direct resulted in them sending me copies of my bank statements which clearly show tha the account was closed down 7 months before assignment was done.

 

Account closed in Feb 07, assignment done on Sept 07.

 

Clearly HSBC have sold CL a duff account.

 

regards

Paul

 

Yes i see that, so did you clear the balance on the account and then it was closed?, if you dont mind me asking

[Guest mediaseller]

Someone did because at the time of account closure the balance was zero.

 

Anyway I only want to know if the defence letter looks OK.

 

Regards Paul

[creditcardmug]

Yes there's nothing wrong with it, it just seems a bit lacking, you should at least put in that you sent them a CPR18 request and that you respectfully ask that the court allow you to submit an amended defence should they provide you with further information IMHO.

[master woody]

I dont think this is a good defence, please look at my defence (ive just won ) with these idoits.

 

CL tend to use the old bank account number and sort code for every product this proberbly will be a defulted loan.

 

look at my defence and read my thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/127086-going-court-woody-cl.html

[master woody]

my defence change the relevent bits

 

IN THE XXXXXXXX COUNTY COURT CLAIM NUMBER XXXXXXXX

BETWEEN:

 

CL FINANCE LIMITED

Claimant

And

Woody

Defendant

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

1. On 7 January 2008 CL FINANCE LIMITED commenced proceedings against the defendant for £XXXX plus interest, a debt allegedly incurred under a credit agreement between the defendant and HSBC Bank PLC 2. The Claimant states the debt was assigned them by a deed of assignment dated 28 September 2007.

3. The defendant does not admit or deny the debt, but puts the claimant to strict proof thereof.

4. The defendant has not received a valid notice of assignment for the alleged debt from the original creditor and therefore put the claimant to strict proof that privity of contract exists between the claimant and Defendant.

6. The claimant’s solicitors were requested by letter dated 17 January 2008 to produce the following various documents under Part 18.1 of the Civil Procedure Rules viz., a copy of the executed credit agreement, a true copy of the alleged assignment and any default notice from the original creditor together with some form of proof of postage that this notice was sent to the correct address and was served with the proper notice before this claim was submitted.

7. To date, the claimant’s solicitors have not acknowledged the request, nor responded in any way nor supplied the requested documentation.

8. The defendant has not received a copy of any default notice from the claimant, and asks that the claimant provides the court with a true copy of such a notice, and with some form of proof of postage that this notice was sent to the correct address and was served with the proper notice before this claim was submitted.

AND the defendant

9. seeks an order that the claimant’s action is struck out or otherwise is dismissed on the grounds that any claim cannot be enforced following the claimant’s default in failing to supply a true copy of the executed credit agreement as required by S78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

10. In the alternative, the defendant respectfully asks the court to order the disclosure of the credit agreement, notice of default in the form required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and notice of assignment in the form required by the Law of Property Act 1925.The defendant also requests that the court order the claimant to disclose a list of all charges made to the account and a list of the costs associated with each charge for the last 6 years in order for them to prove that the debt amounts to the amount claimed.

11. The defendant also respectfully asks the permission of the court to amend this defence when the above documents are provided by the claimant

[Guest mediaseller]

Thanks Master Woody for your advice.

 

Your letter looks great however the particulars fo claim on my summons are as follows:

 

"The Claimant's clam is for a sum of 8463.83 being monies due from the defendant to the Claimant under an overdrawn bank account originated with HSBC Bank plc under reference 402510/12613395 and assigned to the Claimant on the 28th of September 2007, notice of which has been given to the Defendant.

The account was maintained without sufficient funds to meet withdrawals made by the defendant.

The Claiment claims the sum of 8463.83."

 

 

The text in blue are the actual words on the summons.

 

 

Were the words the same on yours?

 

 

You see from the wording they are actually refering to an overdrawn bank account which clearly did not exist.

 

 

They make no mention of the managed loan account whic was also mysteriously paid off in Feb 2007. Long before the assignment date of Sept 07.

 

 

I will though change my defence to include the fact that I submitted to Cohens a CPR18 and have had no reply and that "The defendant also respectfully asks the permission of the court to amend this defence when the above documents are provided by the claimant"

 

 

Thanks again peeps.

[creditcardmug]

Just To put some meat on the bones of this Cohen/CL, (same company),Always say they do not have to comply with the CPR, as they did in my case.

You make no mention of whether they have a valid Consumer Credit Agreement, i think you should also put them to strict proof of this and require sight of the original, also did they send a valid Default Notice?, and can they prove delivery?

 

You would also require (should this be a valid claim which is yet to be established), a full set of accounts from the onset to the present in order to establish whether their are any penalty charges in it and that the said claim amount is correct.

[Guest mediaseller]

Thanks everyone.

 

I'm going to get some relaxation now and come back to it tomorrow before finally tweaking my defence for submission online.

 

Regards to all. Paul:cool:

[master woody]

have you read my thread?

 

as i said you need to tweak your thread to your situation. i'd start by uploading or type your POC then click the triangle so a mod can take a look. as per point 11 on my defence you may admend it a later stage but still good to start off on your best foot...

 

PS

 

sounds like CL\cohen have messed up. why not give them a ring and see if you can sort it out but dont forget to get your defence in on time!

 

all the best

[AndyOrch]

Hi,

 

 

I have posted a thread elsewhere in this forum on this subject and I'm now ready to file my defence on-line this weekend so I would like someone to check the defence posted here and suggest any changes which I should make if any.

 

 

The situation was the Howard Cohen Solicitors acting for CL Finance issued me with a summons for a balance of £8.5k on a bank account which was closed and leaving a zero balance 7 months prior to CL Finance acquiring the alleged debt.

 

 

The defence is as follows:

 

 

 

In the Northamton County Court

 

Claim number: xxxxxxxxx

 

Between

 

CL Finance Limited- Claimant

 

and

 

xxxxxxxxxx – Defendant

 

(Dont need the above just head it defence)

 

 

 

 

 

I xxxxxxxxxx, of 1xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, am the Defendant and make this statement.

 

 

 

 

Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

 

 

 

The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

 

 

 

The Claimant's claim in their own words “is for a sum of £8,463.83 being monies due from the defendant to the Claimant under an overdrawn bank account originated with HSBC Bank plc under reference xxxxxxx and assigned to the Claimant on the 28th of September 2007, notice of which has been given to the Defendant”.

 

 

 

 

Deed of Assignment.(Notice of Assignment)

 

It has been alleged by the Claimant that the aforementioned bank account under reference xxxxxxxxx was assigned to the Claimant at 28th September 2007, however despite a request from myself to the Claimant in the form of a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) (Subject Access Request), for a copy of a (Notice of Assignment )Deed of Assignment, non has been delivered to me.

 

 

 

 

Particulars of the aforementioned overdrawn bank account.

 

 

The HSBC bank account under reference xxxxxxxxxxx to which the Claimant refers was closed at 20th February 2007 leaving nothing owing.

 

 

 

 

Conclusion.

 

 

I the defendant respectfully ask the Court to strike out the claim against me since the aforementioned bank account was closed at 20th February 2007 and did not exist on the alleged date of of assignment being 28th of September 2007.

 

 

 

 

Statement of Truth. Dont need a statement of truth if input vis a vis MCOL

 

 

I, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed .....................xxxx xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Date xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks thanks in anticipation.

Paul:)

 

I really would include about CPR 18/ Default Notice Also if requested a copy of any CCA sec77 if the claim involves any personal loan element and its needs otherwise its ok

 

 

Regards

 

Andy;-)

[Guest mediaseller]

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks for the advice. The reference to the "Deed of Assignment" is correct siince I did receive a copr of the notice of assignment. was has not been provided is a true copy of the Deed. I have included the CPR18 statement so here is what I hope is my final defence:

 

In the Northamton County Court

Claim number: xxxxxxx

 

Between

 

CL Finance Limited- Claimant

 

and

 

xxxxxxxxxxxx – Defendant

I xxxxxxxx of 19, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, am the Defendant and make this statement.

Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

1. The Claimant's claim in their own words “is for a sum of 8463.83 being monies due from the defendant to the Claimant under an overdrawn bank account originated with HSBC Bank plc under reference xxxxxx/xxxxxxxx and assigned to the Claimant on the 28th of September 2007, notice of which has been given to the Defendant”

   
   

   
   

2. Deed of Assignment.

   
   

3. It has been alleged by the Claimant that the aforementioned bank account under reference xxxxxx/xxxxxxxx was assigned to the Claimant at 28th September 2007, however despite a request from myself to the Claimant dated 1 August 2008 in the form of a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) (Subject Access Request), for a copy of a Deed of Assignment, non has been delivered to me.

   
   

4. The claimant’s solicitors were requested by letter received by them and signed on 13 January 2008 to produce the following various documents under Part 18.1 of the Civil Procedure Rules inter alia., a true copy of the alleged assignment and any default notice from the original creditor together with some form of proof of postage that this notice was sent to the correct address and was served with the proper notice before this claim was submitted.

   
   

5. To date, the claimant’s solicitors have not acknowledged the request, nor responded in any way nor supplied the requested documentation.

   
   

   Particulars of the aforementioned overdrawn bank account.

   
   

6. The HSBC bank account under reference xxxxxx/xxxxxxxx to which the Claimant refers was closed at 20th February 2007 leaving nothing owing.

   
   

   Conclusion.

   
   

7. I the defendant respectfully ask the Court to strike out the claim against me since the aforementioned bank account was closed at 20th February 2007 and did not exist on the alleged date of of assignment being 28th of September 2007.

   
   

8. The defendant also respectfully asks the permission of the court to amend this defence when the above documents are provided by the claimant

   
   

Statement of Truth.

 

I, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed .....................xxxx xxxxxxxxxxx

 

Date xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sorry numbering got a little screwed which I will fix before sending.

 

Can I really omit the statement of truth if I submit online?

 

By the way, I'm sticking to responding to what they are claiming for. Anything else would only muddy the water and is irrelevant to the claim.

 

Thank again.

Paul:)

Edited August 31, 2008 by mediaseller

[Guest mediaseller]

Thanks to all.

 

I :)have submitted my defence now and will keep you posted.

 

Paul