Urgent advice leaving local authority housing

[Rich44]

I posted a long time back about getting my partners mother moved from their council house to nearer to us as she has very poor health and her friend who is her carer is 72 and they both need more support they're currently 75 miles away.

 

Long story short after some help from an MP they have been offered a local home. They have told the council they are leaving and they now want them to sign terms and conditions saying things like they need to remove all furniture (fair enough) but they also say all carpets must be removed now the carpets that are there were down when they moved in about 24 years ago.

 

Can the council REALLY make them remove the carpets it seems totally ridiculous to me to expect people on benefits who are having to borrow every penny from relatives to be able to afford to move house to remove carpets (stair carpet is under a stairlift anyway).

 

The housing officer is coming tomorrow to put the thumb screws on her to sign immediately, have told her to sign nothing so need help ASAP!!!!

 

Thanks

[MrShed]

They dont have to, but they may be charged a removal charge if they do not.

[Rich44]

I can see that but why should they have to when that was the state the property was in when they moved in

 

How can someone with severe heart problems and someone else who is 72 be expected to rip up carpets and not only that remove a carpet that has a wahacking great stairlift on top of it, with the best will in the world NO ONE is going to be able to remove that without first removing the lift.

 

We can't do it for them as my partner is 38 weeks pregnant we've already agreed to lend them our life savings to move, another relative has offered them some money too, the new place has no carpets so that is over £1000 to carpet so they have no money to get carpets ripped up.

 

Seems very unfair for two elderly unwell members of society to be victimised in this fashion, even more so when there is no mention of what these charges are and how much they could be what would stop a council charging £500 to clear carpets

[MrShed]

It would be their actual cost, which they would have to quantify at the point of claiming.

[Rich44]

their actual cost which they could then turn around and say 2 men all day plus van plus disposal £500

 

I fail to see why when the previous occupant left them and the council did not remove them why they should now have to do so, unless the council used it as a nice little earner take the money then dont remove the carpets hmmmmm

 

There must presumably be some kind of system in place for this kind of scenario they cant expect people living on the poverty line who can hardly afford food and heating to be able to afford to pay someone to remove carpets which were already laid when they moved in it's totally crazy

 

They're now thinking about not moving over it all

[MrShed]

OK lets be clear.

 

- Should the council leave them in, there can be NO charge made.

- Although the current vogue is to accuse public organisations of fraudulent behaviour, I would be extremely surprised if any council would act in the fashion you have described and falsify costs or exaggerate them.

 

Can you/they show that the carpets were present when they moved in?

[Rich44]

Hah well our ex local council was forced to pay myself and my partner £800 due to it's behaviour so i KNOW councils can carry on in any fashion they like and how awful they can truly be so I wouldn't be surprised after all what chance would they stand of being caught anyway this is besides the point. I couldn't give a damn about "vogue" etc I am speaking from personal experience of 2 councils not to tar them all with the same brush but once bitten and all that...

 

The figure I made up could be easily quantified 2 men all day plus van etc they would charge more for disposal as the could claim hazardous materials (could be fleas or whatever, there isn't but they wouldnt know that so hence hazardous)

 

I don't know if they can or they can't they've been there a long time so they may have records or they may not and I wouldnt hold out any chance of the council having records.

 

My inclination to it is let the council do it and wait for the bill and then tell them they can have 50p a week from their income support/other benefits they get as they have nothing that's why those carpets have been down for 24 years they literally have nothing and have both been bankrupt

 

Figures are:

 

£800 moving costs (removal company, cheapest)

£1100 carpets new place (again cheapest with cheapest carpet £4.99 sq mtr)

 

We have £1000 in the bank another relative has offered £1000 so that it's just about covered but that's it there is no more money.

 

My partners mum has been on the phone 5 times today and this evening she was sobbing down the phone and this from someone who has a hernia the size of a rugby ball, acute angina (killed mother and brother) and many other problems all because of this letter from the council.

 

It's all just far too ambiguous it wouldn't be so bad if they'd put a damn figure on it but to just say there'll be a charge is frightening the hell out of her as it would many of the vulnerable in society.

 

Thanks for your replies on the matter I dont want to sound ungrateful but like I said there has to be some compassion somewhere in the system

[MrShed]

Well Rich, I personally dont deal in compassion. That sounds awful, and it is not that I dont sympathise. But people have a tendancy to bring in what are completely irrelevant emotional comments/arguments into what is, effectively, a legal and financial question. Without being heartless, the fact that someone suffers from angina or a hernia does not mean that they should be less liable than someone who doesnt. And also, someone who has no or little ability to pay again is no less LIABLE to pay than someone who has greater ability to pay. Also, remember that on the flip side of this - if someone should remove the carpets and doesnt and then DOESNT GET BILLED, who pays....well us, the taxpayer. So yes, clearly the council has an absolute obligation to reclaim whatever costs it legally can from others, when others are in fact liable.

 

I am not saying the people in question are liable. What I am saying is that the ONLY reason they may not be liable is due to the presence of the carpet when they moved in. Dont get yourself(and others) dragged down into some sense that it is immoral for other reasons - concentrate on showing that the carpets were there on commencement of tenancy.

 

And by the way, you are making some fairly serious accusations of councils being fraudulent with figures. I know from personal experience how much councils are monitored and audited, and I can tell you absolutely categorically that the implication you have made is completely unfounded.

 

*gets off soap box*

[Rich44]

errr I think you'll find that housing is majority funded from rent not tax payers

 

If you read my previous post I said where are the figures THAT is what is making it worse it's like some huge sword hanging over their heads when the council WONT say what is happening or what the charge will be does that sound fair to you?

 

Have you ever heard about extenuating circumstances and compassion I didnt say they SHOULDN'T pay it if you read again I said they should let the council do it and make arrangements to pay the bare minimum (which is the maximum the can afford) under those circumstances I wasn't saying this should not pay anything other than if the council agrees the carpets were there.

 

I could have said give them the keys back and lie about your new address is I was saying about not paying it

 

As for emotional arguments it's that kind of thing which is why she should be given the opportunity to pay via extended installments things like that and the NHS giving her MRSA 5 times as well and the NHS are monitored FAR FAR more than any council is (and I used to work for a county council and I know EXACTLY what the do get up to I can assure you!!)

 

As for the off topic council thing so if councils are soooo well monitored how can the LGO come in write a 24 page report lambasting them and telling them to pay us £800 (as documented elsewhere in this very forum as it happens) don't give me that councils are monitored therefore it doesn't happen crap as for my "allegation" I made no such thing I merely posted a supposition I did at no time alledge that this is what would/does happen.

 

I also think it's very suspect for the housing officer to tell them they are going round the next morning with some terms for them to sign that they must sign there and then they cannot have them for a day or so (to give relatives a chance to read them) again for people of that age and health to be leant on in such a fashion is unreal that is the kind of behaviour I would expect from some dodgy door to door salesman not a council officer. I'd like to know what this exactly says that they are so keen to get them to sign immediately sounds very odd to me when we left local authority housing it was not something that happened to us we just gave the keys to them shook their hand and that was it, we are hoping the will email a copy to us to look at first but I wont hold my breath on that either

 

Anyway apart from your good self it seems there is no one about on here at the moment who may contribute and no one who has any actual answers rather than supposition and repeating what i've already read on the relevant councils website under housing so I will bid you good evening and hopefully try to get something sorted out tomorrow or i'll get back in touch with their MP to try to get an actual figure on it which is ultimately all we were asking for in the first instance not hard is it (or maybe it is).....

 

Thanks for your replies but after a week of 5 or more calls a day and very upset elderly relatives and a partner upset who is 38 weeks pregnant and very busy 2 year old this is just going to go on and on and isn't going to help anything I wondered if anyone had been through similar rather than the textbook answer and obviously not tonight.

 

Thank you for your replies as you can guess it's been a long week and stressful I don't want to snap at you as you're only replying trying to help and like I said I hate councils tbh from previous experiences with them and thats threatening to drag the whole thing off topic which wont help either and is likely to just leave me with ulcers so thanks for your help and i'll go back to the way I was pursuing it before

 

Rich

Edited August 13, 2008 by Rich44

[MrShed]

Well I've said my bit - not really intending to get into a protracted off topic debate with you, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Your key area is to concentrate on the fact that the carpets were present on moving in. Although there is only myself about, I cant see what anyone else will say that is any different to that...

[Rich44]

yeah see my edit I can see your cold light of day answer and from your PoV but life aint all black and white and apart from the carpet issue which is the angle we were going with anyway already as it's the truth not putting a price on it is the other argument as it is that which is really stressing them but see above edit.

 

Thanks for the replies

[MrShed]

Thats OK. As much as making my point, I am also just trying to refocus your efforts in the right direction if that makes sense

[Rich44]

Yeah I understand just hard when you've got someone saying down the phone that the stress of moving could kill them and then your partner heavily pregnant upset n all that it never rains heh will see what tomorrow brings.

 

I've got them the paperwork for a budgeting loan some if they get that maybe it will help take the pressure off.

 

Thanks once again

[Rich44]

Hi

 

Last year we got into trouble financially and ended up with rent arrears (coming off of HB after being unemployed) anyway hands up it's my fault.

 

Anyway social landlord is now saying we've broken our agreement with them and is taking us to court for posession. Up until now we've had no correspondence from them about it, we get a rent statement once a year in March time (when they whack the rent up a LOT!) but we've had no letters nor notices from them about arrears since 12 October 2011.

 

We scrimped and borrowed to pay off all the arrears and spoke to a housing officer today and told them that's what we'd done but they seem a little wishy washy as to whether clearing it off will automatically sort the court case or whether we still need to file a defence etc. We're waiting on another call back from our housing officer to clarify but will clearing the arrears and setting up a direct debit to prevent any further arrears likely to cease the action?

 

Any other advice (other than not getting into arrears again) thank you

[mariner51]

What Notice for repo has HA served, s8 (rent arrears), s21 (no fault) or both?

[Rich44]

Section 8

 

Thanks

 

Also the court papers state

 

5. The following steps have been taken to recover any arrears:

 

Various letters sent according to our rent arrears procedure, visits and personal contact

 

6. The appropirate notice seeking posession was served on the defendant on 20th October 2011

 

This was a hand delivered letter (no attempt at contact was made just put through the door) and we then arranged to pay the arrears with them and then stuffed it up in August.

 

We had a notice on 20th October 2011 which is to what they refer to in their court documents as notice, since then we had our annual rent statement in March/April time but we screwed up late August and this seems to be where this is coming from. Is this notice they hand delivered on 20th October really all they had to do, we've not had any contact from them in all this time.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Rich44

[Lea_HTH]

What grounds?

 

If the grounds relate solely to rent arrears and at the time of the hearing you do not have any rent arrears then they do not have a cause of action and the case should be struck out of court.

 

However, if you are even a week or so in arrears, the LL can ask for an adjournment of the hearing with liberty to restore, which means if your arrears increase they can return to court without reserving you a notice.

[mariner51]

Then reducing rent owed to less than 2 months by date of hearing, should take care of g8 (mandatory repo), but HA may also have cited g 10 & 11 (discretionary repo) for persistant late payments / some rent owing.

If HA have not yet served s21 (mandatory repo order after 14-28 days from date of hearing) then expect one soon as a Sword of Damocles.

[Lea_HTH]

What type of social landlord? What type of tenancy? Assured Tenancy or Secure Tenancy? I presume it is not an AST unless you are temporarily housed?

[Rich44]

My mistake, looking through the notice served 20th October 2011 it says

 

Ground 10

 

Some rent is due lawfully from the tenant

 

a) is unpaid on the date where the proceedings for possession are begun;

 

b) except where subsection 1b of section 8 of this Act applies, was in arrears at the date of the service of the notice under that section relating to those proceedings.

There's nothing mentioning acts nor sections on the court paperwork just on this notice from last year.

 

It's a social landlord and we've been here since Jan 2007

 

To top it off Paypoint website link isn't working so I can't pay it tonight (will go to the bank after work tomorrow)

[Lea_HTH]

Yes, I saw it was a social landlord, what type? Housing Association, Housing Trust, ALMO, Council...what? And what type of tenancy agreement do you have?

 

Forget the notice, it's valid - it has an expiry date of 12 months from date of issuing, and that period of time isn't up for a couple of weeks, so it is perfectly valid.

 

Have you received a court date? When is it?

[Rich44]

Ok I didn't know if they could just go bang straight to court thanks.

 

Their name is xx housing trust

 

Edit The assignment of tenancy says it's under a "secure tenancy" some of the evidence submitted refers to it as an assured tenancy though and court date is 30th October 2012

Edited October 4, 2012 by Rich44

[Lea_HTH]

Okay, in that case I would strongly suggest you seek some face to face advice from CAB, a law centre or a solicitor so that all your paperwork can be looked at in detail. There seems to be some confusion over what type of tenancy you have - if it's a secure tenancy, they have served the wrong notice, and therefore it is not valid, particularly since you stated that you had received no other communication from them - there is a whole pre-action protocol that social landlords are supposed to follow, and it appears from the little you have said, that this might not have occurred.

 

In any case, if you have cleared the arrears before the hearing (don't leave it until the last minute, do it as soon as possible), there will be no cause of action as per my initial post. You do, however, need to establish what type of tenancy you have - though housing trusts usually give assured tenancies and not secure ones...you need all the paperwork.

[Rich44]

Right i've now dug out all the paperwork the secured tenancy mentioned was because we did a mutual exchange and the previous tenant was on one on subsequent paperwork it is referred to as an Assured tenancy and as we've only been here since 2007 I assume reading around that is the correct type of tenancy.

 

Ok, we'll get on to the CAB tomorrow when the children are at school. I hope to God we can get this sorted out as there's no private rent available anywhere nearby (it's all holiday homes) so we'd probably have to move back to Norwich to get an affordable rent which would mean destroying the children's lives, me losing my job and the MiL (disabled lives next door) probably having some kind of breakdown about us moving out and not leaving the house again (sounds like an exageration but it's not). I know it's MY fault I feel terrible i've let the wife and children down, if the worst happens I don't think i'll ever be able to look them in the eyes again. I have had some low moments in my life but this is the worst i've ever ever felt, sorry for rambling on. We'll call the CAB tomorrow, we can't afford a solicitor and i've called in everything I can think of to clear the arrears off, we won't qualify for any help as my wages are about £15k

 

I've been trying to pay the arrears off all day, it's now in the bank but it won't go through, going to head into the branch and get them to do it over the counter straight into the landlords bank account.

[Lea_HTH]

Sounds like it is an assured tenancy. I would still suggest you seek assistance from CAB or a law centre so that you can get someone to accompany you to the hearing and speak on your behalf, if this turns out to be necessary.

 

Try not to worry - I very much doubt you are going to lose your home, particularly if you pay the arrears off in full. But even if you only pay off some of the arrears, it is unlikely that a court will award a possession order.

 

Is your household income 15k? If so, you may be entitled to some benefits - working tax credits, child tax credits - maybe even some housing benefit. This is all stuff that CAB will be able to help you with, including helping you to fill in the forms.