Halifax sent me an unsigned copy of "an" agreement

[Ypnos]

Post up the agreement they sent you. They only have to send you a 'true' copy of the original agreement and the regulations specifically allow removal of any signatures or other security info. What they have to do is produce in court an identical copy with signatures. Wee need to see the agreement to see if it fails as an agreement on its content with or without signatures.

 

That's not how I've understood it from other threads on here... I understood that they had to provide a signed photocopy of the agreement I had with them initially. All they have sent me to date is a printout of a standard agreement, twice. The first time it didn't even have my name on it.

 

The second time it had my name on it, but still no signature. Your post has me quite worried now, because you're saying that if this goes to court, they could still pull out an agreement with my signature on it?

 

 

Also, the agreement they sent me is several pages long - I'll be scanning and uploading all week!:-|

[steven4064]

Ypnos

 

The question of what they may send in response to a s77 or s78 request is well established. If they have sent you a copy of standard T&Cs, then they can argue that they have complied. There is no obligation for them to send an actual copy. It is all explained in my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

[Ragtaggeorge]

Your getting something for nothing here in anycase how wearysome is that. Not the sort of person I am interested in helping, bye.

[Ypnos]

Ypnos

 

The question of what they may send in response to a s77 or s78 request is well established. If they have sent you a copy of standard T&Cs, then they can argue that they have complied. There is no obligation for them to send an actual copy. It is all explained in my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

 

Hmm

 

according to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/83035-guidelines-requests-original-agreement.html

the general consensus is that a "signed" agreement is required. That's mainly what I was basing my case on. Which is the correct one?

 

Your getting something for nothing here in anycase how wearysome is that. Not the sort of person I am interested in helping, bye.

 

Relax, chap, I didn't say I wasn't going to do it. Uploading to photobucket as I type!

[Ypnos]

Here it is. ypnos666/CAG - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

There are also 2 letters on there and I need to make the following points wrt those:

 

1. The phone calls have stopped, however an automated system was used that was ringing every hour on the hour from 9am to 8pm. When I did answer it, the message said that no agent was available that _I_ should call back another time.

 

2. May '08 was the month I made the CCA request. Before that I made regular payments, exactly as what the C.A.B. arranged for me and I sometimes paid more, but never less.

 

3. As per point 2

 

4. It's not only the fact that they mislead me about having sent me a letter which ceased the agreement, but that they ceased the agreement without putting it in writing. by their own admission, they did not advise me in any way until they started calling me about arrears.

 

5. Very important to note that with this letter, they did _not_ enclose any documentation other than an Ombudsman leaflet. No statements or agreements were enclosed, probably in error. It's true that the cheque for £1 was never cashed, but that is their issue.

[Josie8]

Send a Subject access request because what they have sent you is all they have to under s.78.

Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

 

 

I require all information you hold on me including the following:

 

1. a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my credit card history with xxxxxx . Alternatively, a complete set of statements that include all transactions, late payment fees, over limit fees, all interest & charges for that period will be acceptable.

 

2. a copy of my original signed consumer credit agreement and copies of any default notices issued in this period & any other documentation or information pertaining to me that you hold in your records.

 

3. Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with your company.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

 

4. If this account has been sold or otherwise transferred to another organisation for administration or recovery please supply details of the sums notified by xxxx to any such organisation & a signed true copy of the Notice of Assignment. Please state whether this was absolute or equitable.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

 

Yours Faithfully

[Ypnos]

Josie8, thank you for your quick and helpful response, I will sort out the SAR on Monday. I have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind.

 

If they are unable to send me a signed copy of the agreement, under the SAR, what should my next move be?

 

Even if they claim they complied under s.78, does the absense of a signed agreement render the debt unenforceable?

[Josie8]

Josie8, thank you for your quick and helpful response, I will sort out the Subject Access Request on Monday. I have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind.

 

If they are unable to send me a signed copy of the agreement, under the Subject Access Request, what should my next move be? Jump for joy:grin:

 

Even if they claim they complied under s.78, does the absense of a signed agreement render the debt unenforceable?

Yes because they would need it to enforce agreement in courts as long as you took it out before 6th April 2007

[Ragtaggeorge]

Add

'You must as a minimum provide me with a list of any documents I request. You must also list all the documents you hold containing data relating to me and / or any accounts including XXXXXXXX another requirement of case law is that you annotate this list with the reasons (if any) why any data is non disclosable.

Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec) '26. It is clear that at the 17 July hearing, Judge Wyn Williams did give the claim an entirely different procedural direction and timetable from that of the Order of 8 June, which it replaced. The standard directions for disclosure of documents found in the earlier order were replaced by the more appropriate and carefully crafted directions in the 17 July and 16 August Orders, which required the National Assembly to (i) to identify and copy to Mr Ezsias the documents it had already disclosed to him, (ii) to identify by list to Mr Ezsias those documents it wished to withhold from Mr Ezsias, and (iii) to copy and file copies of those documents to enable the Court to decide whether they could be withheld or should be disclosed'

and '28. The judge required the National Assembly to serve the non-disclosable list as a list on Mr Ezsias, with annotations against each document indicating why they considered there were no data in the document that were disclosable under the 1998 Act: and to file copies of all of those documents at Court, to enable the judge to consider them (with the National Assembly’s reasons for non-disclosure) and decide whether the documents contained any information that was disclosable under the 1998 Act.'

They will not reveal what they have until forced to by taking you to court. Best advice is to wait for them to make the moves then react. Part of their overall strategy is to keep you guessing and worried. It is also cheaper even if they have the agreement signed cf. taking you to court to enforce the agreement. It looks like a new document when did you open the account - see Josies comment above.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Ragtaggeorge
fluffy bunnies

[Ypnos]

It was opened in the summer of 2004, not sure which month exactly...

[Josie8]

It was opened in the summer of 2004, not sure which month exactly...

 

 

Then its game on...................

[Ypnos]

Excellent news! Thank you

[Ypnos]

Hmmm... It would appear that the phone calls have resumed. Are they allowed to do this when I've sent them an SAR...?

[godpikachu]

er, no.....they shouldnt be contacting you at all as they have failed to provide you with a signed CCA (ie, proof of their right to pursue you).

 

next time one of these bozos calls, in form them that the call is being recorded and that you want to know their name, their supervisors name, and the name of the person who made an appointment to call you, if they fail to supply you with the name of the person who made an appointment to call you (which wont be hard as you never made one), then inform the person calling you they are committing a criminal offense, and you shall be contacting the police.

 

 

ignore any bluster about their rights etc, they dont have any now, those rights went away the minute they posted you out a worthless, unsigned agreement which has less value than a piece of used toilet paper.

 

remind them that EVERYTHING must be in writin, and say that for each phone call you recieve from them from now on, you will invoice them for £15 per phone call.

[Ragtaggeorge]

Thanks for the soylent

You could use this letter, keep a record of any calls you get.

I got fed up and changed my number eventually but they are certainly ringing me less often on my mobile now.

 

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXXX

DEFAULT UNDER THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

FAILURE TO PRODUCE AGREEMENT

SERIOUS DISPUTE

UNLAWFUL AND VEXATIOUS HARASSMENT

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY OR ITS AGENTS

 

 

Dear Sir / Madam

The account is currently in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

I have been receiving numerous UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS letters and phone calls from the various debt collection agencies / front companies that you choose to use.

 

Given that you have been given every opportunity to present me with a valid agreement and failed I can only assume a valid agreement does not exist.

 

Any future enforcement action whether that be letters or phone calls and I will invoice you for £15 on each occasion to cover my time in replying, the disruption caused to my day, postage and packing.

 

I trust this clarifies my position.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

[Print name no signature]

Edited January 12, 2009 by Ragtaggeorge

[Taz11]

just subbing, as this may also be a route I'm taking

[Ypnos]

I have just received a text message:

 

Dear MR *****, please call Blair, Oliver & Scott on 08456010433 quoting ref. *****.

 

 

 

 

I assume this is the Halifax. Do I need to call this lot?

[Guest dvdriley]

only if you want to wind them up and have a laugh, they just want money out you.

[godpikachu]

I have just received a text message:

 

Dear MR *****, please call Blair, Oliver & Scott on 08456010433 quoting ref. *****.

I assume this is the Halifax. Do I need to call this lot?

 

youe already told them you wil only deal with them in writing, so theres no need to ring them.

if its important they will write to you, and when/if they do, let us know what theyve said.

[Ypnos]

Thought so. Cheers

[findingthecheese]

Hi Ypnos!

 

Sounds all too familiar !

 

You'll probably be hearing from our 'friends' Westc**ks next !

 

More of the same threatograms etc. etc. etc.

 

I'm becoming a dab hand at the old 'cut & paste'...

 

 

ftc.

[Ypnos]

Morning FTC

 

Who are they?

[Ypnos]

OK Blair Oliver have been ringing every number they have to get in touch with me, so I called them and the conversation went a bit like this:

BOS: Can I have your reference number?

Me:

BOS: Can you confirm your name, address and D.O.B.?

Me: Not really, I don't know who it is I'm calling - I just have a text message here asking me to call the number.

BOS: We're calling on behalf of the Halifax with regards to your debt.

Me: Very well, let's get this out of the way

BOS: Thank you. I'm calling today...

Me: Correction, I called you.

BOS: ...fine...on behalf of the Halifax for the amount of £xxxx owing on your account and we require a payment in full.

Me: I don't know what you mean.

BOS: Your debt to the Halifax...

Me: Do you have a copy of a signed agreement?

BOS: If you just hold, I'll order you one up.

Me:

BOS: OK I've ordered you a copy of a credit agreement.

Me: Signed?

BOS: Pardon?

Me: A legally admissible signed copy of a credit agreement?

BOS: ...

Me: OK before this conversation goes any further, let me clear two points up because I have busy work to do.

One - I specifically instructed the Halifax to only contact me in writing, so that's reason number one why this call shouldn't be taking place. Two - I asked the Halifax for a signed copy of a credit agreement 9 months ago. This has not been produced. This is another reason why this phone call shouldn't be taking place. Currently, I am awaiting a response from Halifax with regards to a SAR I sent them a couple of weeks ago. That will tell for sure if a legally enforceable agreement exists.

BOS: Sir, if you don't want to co-operate then we'll have no choice but to take this to court.

Me: That's fine, but you'll have a hard time convincing the judge with no signed agreement to show him.

BOS: Ok goodbye

Me: Bye.

 

 

I am now quite stressed out, heh...

[Guest dvdriley]

well i dont get stressed, but my marriage has improved. Instead of taking out my stress on my wife I take it out the dca,s!!!!!!!!!!

[findingthecheese]

Mornin' Ypnos!

 

I was referring to Westcot (another DCA). I'm in a similar situation to you, but did the 'broken record technique' first with Hfx, then with BOS i.e. sent them the same 'bemused' letter to each of their threatograms! BOS eventually tired of me and appear to have passed me over to our pals at Westcot.

 

ftc.

 

p.s. can't praise the guys on this site enough! Best 'self-help' ever!