Help Wanted Bailiffs coming at 6AM

[Puggie]

Hi i did a stupid thing on the 21/12/07 I had a visit from Chandlers limited regarding unpaid council tax not knowing any different I signed a walking possesion for a council tax debt of £1233.51 to this they added the following fees

 

levy fee £60.00

walking possesion fee £12.00

attendance and removal costs £242.50

 

And agreed to pay them £100 per month

 

this i have done with out fail but several times this has been a few days late getting to their office

 

on the 28/04/08 we recieved a notice of bailiffs attendance for an outstanding balance of £1051.01 stating that they would be round the following morning at 6am to remove goods

 

we rang chandlers stating we were up to date with our payments they said that several were late so tuff luck

 

we then rang the council stating that we were up to date with payments and that there had been several times that the payment had been sent late due to our wage payments being paid on different days each month and also we work full time and getting to a post office isnt easy during working hours

 

the council spoke to chandlers and told then to cease there action and told us that chandlers should be writing to us to change the date when the payment should be made

 

We have heard nothing from Chandlers till tonight at 18:10 this evening when we got another notice of bailiffs attendance at 6am tomorrow morning again we are up to date with payments but they continue to arrive a couple of days after the due date

 

Obviously with the lateness of there letter being delivered we cant contact the council till they open tomorrow at 9am which is after there time to arrive at the premises

 

we are both due to go to work tomorrow both of us will be out of the house by 6:30 and 7 am leaving my step son in till he leaves for school at 7:50

 

any advice would be helpful

 

Puggie

 

 

what can we do?

[WWOW]

attendance and removal costs £242.50

How much goods did they remove? There are removal companies that can move the entire contents of an apartment for less.

 

when we got another notice of bailiffs attendance at 6am tomorrow morning

Making house calls at 06:00 is being unreasonable.

 

...on the 21/12/07 I had a visit ...council tax debt of £1233.51 ...agreed to pay them £100 per month... this i have done with out fail ...on the 28/04/08 we received a notice of bailiffs attendance for an outstanding balance of £1051.01

and their arithmetic doesn't look right either. They've defrauded you £217.91 plus £242.50. A total of £460.41.

 

Make your car safe. If a bailiff turns up at your house, hand this to him through an open window. NEVER open the door. NEVER confirm or admit your name and address. Tell him you can’t answer any questions.

 

To: [NAME OF BAILIFF]

 

BY HAND

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Your visit to [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE]

 

The council appears to have instructed you to recover council tax arrears from me however, your fees contradict by £460.41 because you have charged me £242.50 for removing goods you did not have contact with and added further fictitious fees of £217.91 between 21/12/07 and 28/04/08 and this matter is being passed to police under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. I am also filing at your certificating court an official Form 4 complaint against you for defrauding me with bogus fees contrary to Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

 

This letter also gives you notice that you are being denied peaceful entry to my home or to levy goods contained within and I will not be signing anything for you. This notice revokes your eligibility to charge a Walking Possessions fee or other fee relating to the handling of goods.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt as you demanded because it is unrealistic. I have sent an affordable payment direct to the council along with a written schedule of repayments.

 

Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for me to deny a bailiff entry to my property, if you suggest to me otherwise I will automatically report you to the police and you may face a criminal record.

 

Meanwhile please quietly leave the property. If your fees contradict those prescribed by law I will automatically file a Form 4 complaint against you at your certificating court for attempting to defraud me under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

This document was passed to you by hand, and a photograph using a mobile phone has just been taken showing you standing outside the above address reading it.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

Meanwhile send this letter to the council enclosing first installment (if due).

 

Name of Council

Council Tax department

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME & ANY REF]: Visit by your bailiff on [DATE]

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law has ruled an authority is liable for its bailiffs.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by your bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. I was defrauded by them in the meaning of Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 and I ask that you refund me the sum of £460.41 because I was charged fees of £242.50 for removing goods he did not move and made an error in his arithmetic in calculating the balance due by £217.91. We were unable to reach an amicable resolve and the bailiff showed threatening behaviour and became vexatious in nature.

 

I also ask the Council to:

 

a) Take the case back from the bailiff.

b) Accept my original offer to pay £[AMOUNT] a week to clear the arrears

c) Pay me a reasonable compensation for my inconvenience and for my efforts in seeking discovery of information and

d) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff acting for you making unrealistic demands of money.

 

If you fail to satisfactorily complete the above I will automatically escalate the complaint to the local government ombudsman in fourteen days from the date of this letter and open a claim in the small claim track for £460.41 plus costs allowed by the court.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt as demanded by the bailiffs and I will make payment of £[AMOUNT] each month for [NUMBER OF] monthly installments with a final installment of £[AMOUNT]. This may seem a long time but it's all I can afford and allows me to pay future liabilities without falling into arrears. I confirm I am not refusing to pay this debt.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it to be served on you by the ordinary course of post in the meaning of Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

[NAME]

Enc 1st payment.

 

 

Send the bailiff this letter. Its called a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) tweak as necessary. Enclose a cheque for £10 & scan a copy of that cheque showing payee name, date and amount. They slip up and you have the bailiff with his underwear at half-mast.

 

Name of firm of bailiffs

FAO the Data Controller

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Address 4

 

[DATE]

 

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME + ANY REF]: Data Access Request & opportunity to mitigate incorrect fees

 

I write pursuant to Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 and enclose payment of £10 the maximum prescribed under the Act and request you send me the following six points.

 

a) The name and address of the court that certificated the bailiff who acts in this matter

 

b) The certificate number of the aforementioned bailiff

 

c) The name and address of the person or body that instructed you.

 

d) All letters documents emails comments faxes personal opinions memos and other related information which would qualify as information defined under the Act.

 

e) Written confirmation your fees of £[AMOUNT] are truthfully compliant with current legislation that prescribes bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid [TYPE OF DEBT]

 

f) An itemised breakdown of all the fees charges orders costs and other monies that make up the total obtained by your bailiff being £[AMOUNT]

 

I appreciate the Act allows you 40 days from the date of this letter to fulfill this request; I look forward to receiving the above at your earliest convenience.

 

Please be advised your bailiff is being denied entry to my property and I will only communicate with him durably and from a safe distance. If your bailiff threatens me or attempts to break & enter my property, I will automatically make a Form 4 complaint at the Bailiffs certificating court. This may also involve a criminal investigation.

 

This document is delivered by Royal Mail and I deem it good service on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is now your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation. I regret I am unable to discuss this matter by telephone or in person.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

You can ask the court for a refund of fictitious fees by filing an official complaint against the bailiff by sending a Form 4 to his certificating court: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/form4_0606.pdf

 

In the Details of Complaint – tweak as necessary

 

On [DATE] I was visited by the bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. He demanded £[AMOUNT] of which his fees were £[AMOUNT]. He also said he would make house visits at unreasonable times of night to obtain money from me.

 

The bailiff enforced the debt and charged fees I understand contradict Regulation 45 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 and commits an offence under Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

I have tried to reach an amicable resolve with the bailiff and his firm but they have become defensive and vexatious in nature.

 

I ask that I am compensated the sum of £[AMOUNT PAID TO BAILIFF] I have paid to the bailiff plus reasonable costs allowed by the court for seeking discovery of information and bringing this matter to court

Send the form to the bailiff's certificating court with a covering letter asking for it to be placed before a judge.

 

A bailiff defrauding you with fees in this way commits a criminal offence. Ask police to address the criminal element of this matter. Print a hard-copy of Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 from http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1992/Uksi_19920613_en_14.htm and make a copy of the bailiff’s receipt showing the fees charged, and send them with the following letter to your local police station. Tweak as needed

 

To whom it may concern

Name of Police Station

Address line 1

Address line 2

Address line 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Report of offences under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006

 

I was visited on [DATE] by [NAME OF BAILIFF(S)] who I understand might be a bailiff from [NAME OF FIRM] collecting an unpaid Council tax.

 

I was charged [£AMOUNT] as bailiff fees and I understand this contradicts the law prescribing statutory bailiffs fees for collecting this type of debt, namely Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

 

I tried to seek a sensible resolve with the bailiff but they became generally uncooperative and showed defensive and vexatious behaviour. They continued to demand money with threats of fee extortion and making house visits at 6am. They defrauded me of £460.41 by charging me £242.50 for removing goods they did not have contact with and added further fictitious fees of £217.91 between 21/12/07 and 28/04/08. I understand defrauding me in this way commits an offence under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

To enable police to perform a thorough and objective criminal investigation, I enclose the following:

 

1. A copy of the prescribed fees for bailiffs collecting this type of debt as published by the Office of Public Sector Information.

 

2. A document left by the bailiff confirming over-charged fees contradicting the above legislation.

 

I understand the correct fees should have been [£AMOUNT]. I am happy to stand as a prosecution witness and provide a statement for the proceedings and you can contact me on [PHONE NUMBER] to arrange this. Meanwhile, please provide me with a crime reference number.

 

I do ask that any personal feelings on prosecuting a certificated bailiff for fraud must not cloud anyone’s judgment in this matter.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

 

[YOUR NAME]

 

The police can be a bit funny with crimes like this. They may try to fob you off with excuses. Write down the police officers name & rank and quickly escalate your complaint to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/index/contact-us.htm.

 

Independent Police Complaints Commission

Address line 1

Address line 2

Address line 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Complaint against Police Officer(s) [NAME AND RANK]

 

I enclose a copy of a letter and enclosures sent to [NAME OF STATION] police reporting offenses under the Fraud Act 2006.

 

The police responded saying they are unable to perform a criminal investigation and say [it does not fit the criteria for the CPS to prosecute / there is insufficient evidence / the law doesn’t apply to bailiffs / it’s a civil matter / OTHER REASON]. I now understand the responding police officer [NAME & RANK] has made a factual error in their interpretation of the law and may be deliberately trying to misinterpret the law so to avoid making a criminal investigation.

 

I place this complaint before the IPCC understanding the officer may be professionally incompetent, and their failure to report a crime where sufficient evidence is available may be guilty under common law of Perverting the Course of Justice and Assisting an Offender contrary to Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967.

 

I respectfully ask this matter is investigated by police objectively and professionally, and a full and thorough report is passed to the CPS without further delay.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

YOUR NAME

 

If you still get nowhere with police then send the above two letters & enclosures to your MP. Ask why the police are protecting a bailiff after committing criminal offences in the course of his employ.

[tomtubby]

Good letter WWOW but the problem here is that your letter is advising the bailiff that you are refusing him entry into the property but as there is now a Walking Possession this does allow him to force entry into the propert to remove those goods listed on the WP.....and ONLY those goods.

 

 

However there could be an argument concerning the Walking Possession.

 

Firstly was the bailiff certificated as if not..then the Walking Possession is not valid.

 

Second, on the walking possession is there any mention anywhere as to the date that the payments are due?

 

Is there any mention of a default charge?

 

In any event if the bailiff is returning to the property tomorrow then he cannot charge a removal fee UNLESS he actually removes goods. This is because the regulations ONLY provide for the bailiff to make two van charges and that if a 2nd such visit is charged....then goods must actually be removed.

 

However, if the bailiff does intend to remove goods I would suggest that he could have problems in that the fees already charged do not appear correct and from what you have said, you are not in arrears with your payments.

 

I would seriously suggest writing a letter IMMEDIATELY to the Head of Revenue at your local council to state that they have a duty of care to you the council tax payer and that as there are no arrears to your account that this company ( as agents of the local authority) are looking at ways of increasing the their fees at your expense and that you are considering a formal complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman.

Edited July 23, 2008 by tomtubby

[Puggie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puggie

attendance and removal costs £242.50

 

Originally Posted by WWOW

How much goods did they remove? There are removal companies that can move the entire contents of an apartment for less.

 

 

Answer = Nothing !!!!!

 

Debt = £1233.51

levy fee £60.00

Walking Possesion fee £12

Attendance/Removal costs £242.50

Total £1548.01

Payments made

 

dec 21/12/07 £100

Jan 08 £100

Feb 08 £100

March 08 £100

April 08 £100

May 08 £100

June 08 £100

Total Payments £700

total demanded at 28th 04 08 =1051.01(there was £100 payment in the postal system at this time)

total demanded at 22nd 07 08 = 751.01

july payment was going to be sent 23/07/08

 

not sending it to chandlers sending it to council instead with the letter suggested

 

 

 

Oh and thanks for the help appreciate it very much this is driving my wife and I up the wall with worry

[tomtubby]

I would suggest that you contact the council first thing this morning and confirm the amount of the Liability Order This is because many bailiff companies are charging both a first and second visit to the debt BEFORE any visit has ever taken place. Many go even further and charge an attending to remove/enforcement fee as well !!!

[ImpoverishedStudent]

Hi

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but you do NOT have to let them in. However, once they ARE in they have walking possession and can visit anytime they please. If you refuse they can call the police to assist. The trick is is NOT to let them in the 1st place, no matter how they try to 'persuade' you. When they viSited me, the bailiff (Phil Mitchell in a suit) looked into our back garden (which is all fenced by 6ft panels) and inventoried our BBQ - which, incidentally, had a rotting leftover Halloween pumpkin on it. Chandlers are more than welcome to remove this - it will save me from a trip to a tip anyway.

 

What annoys me is that the council tax is not actually due until April, the next financial year. Yet we are getting extra charges now. Also, I am a mature student (council tax exempt) receiving contributions for my partner who is completely financially dependent on me. He has no income yet cannot claim JSA, or council tax benefit so just how he is supposed to pay his council tax of £800+??