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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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jellybabe vs Argos (rd 2)


jellybabe
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Hi there,

i am going after Argos again. For me and for my Husbands account.

3 Questions:

Has Argos become any harder to claim against within the last year?

Have they actually truned up to court yet?

My Husband is not very confident with things like that and asked me if i could do all that for him. Is it possible for him to assign me to receive the letters and do all the negotiations and stuff?

 

Answers to the above questions are greatly appreciated.

jellybabe

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Hi jellybabe!

...Is it possible for him to assign me to receive the letters and do all the negotiations and stuff?...
Do U not live at the same address as your husband??...:confused:

...If U do, wouldn't it be easier, for U to just do the donkey work + get him to sign any letters sent on his behalf, as + when necessary??...;)

Otherwise...

What U need to do, would be to set up an Ordinary Power of Attorney to legalise your actions on his behalf.

...:)

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Hi MilkTrayMan,

Thanks very much for your reply.

Yes, we live at the same adress. As you said, i will do the donkey work.LOL

What about negotiations on the phone? I can remember last time someone from Argos rung me wanting to settle my 1st claim. Can we specifically ask for it to be in writing?

I just hope everything goes well again. I'm getting quite fed up with Argos now. Keep getting phone calls all the time. Thinking about sending the Phone Harrassment letter with my S.A.R.

Don't think it'll make a difference though, they are sooooo persistant.

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...What about negotiations on the phone? I can remember last time someone from Argos rung me wanting to settle my 1st claim. Can we specifically ask for it to be in writing?

It is ALWAYS advisable to conduct matters via written correspondence.

That way U would have irrefutable evidence to back up any potential Court action, should Argos renege on anything which U have agreed on.

 

Also bear in mind that they would be likely to employ specially trained peeps to telephone U + would perhaps therefore be a tad more sharp + skilled than the average normal person that they telephone.

 

By keeping things to written letters, it also enables U to slooow things down to YOUR pace + ask more than 170,000 registered peeps on CAG for their advice/opinion...;)

 

 

 

 

 

...Keep getting phone calls all the time. Thinking about sending the Phone Harrassment letter with my S.A.R.

Don't think it'll make a difference though, they are sooooo persistant.

Personally, I'd try to keep these two different things separate, by sending two letters.

 

 

...:)

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Thank you once again. It is much appreciated:)

Will do as you said.

And sorry about all those questions. I have battled Argos before, but surely they are a bit more up to the fight now. Just want to do everything right. Been reading a lot of things up again on here over the last few months ( to refresh my memory)but some things are still as confusing as they were back then.

Many Thanks again!:)

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Ok, can't send them the letter until i get paid which is another couple weeks. But got a lot of time to read in the meantime.

I come across some Threads where it's stated that the Argos agreements aren't really enforcable?? Would that maybe apply to me aswell?

I opened my account on the 08.03.2001. And i think i can remember signing something in the shop when i applied for this Store Card.

Would it be worth going down the CCA route instead?

I'm certainly not one to run away from Debts, but they are really making my life a misery.

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two more question....anyone ...please?

If i go down the CCA route, does it automatically mean my debt get's transferred to a DCA?

And what is the possibillity of catalogue company's actually having an enforcable agreement?

I am completely new to this whole CCA path, and i'm rather confused now.

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...I come across some Threads where it's stated that the Argos agreements aren't really enforcable?? Would that maybe apply to me aswell?...
Unless U obtained a Copy of YOUR Credit Agreement with Argos, scanned it + Posted it online for peeps to view it, U can't expect peeps to be able to reliably answer your question methinks.

 

 

 

 

I opened my account on the 08.03.2001. And i think i can remember signing something in the shop when i applied for this Store Card.

Would it be worth going down the CCA route instead?

I'm certainly not one to run away from Debts, but they are really making my life a misery.

Sending the £1 CCA Request Template Letter costs just that, £1 + the price of sending it via Recorded Delivery.

If U have a bona fide debt, it is up to the Creditor to be able to prove that U have.

If they can't...U don't legally have a debt to them...simple as that IMHO.

...Morals just don't enter into it...:cool:

 

 

 

 

...If i go down the CCA route, does it automatically mean my debt get's transferred to a DCA?...
In short NO.

However, if U are sending a £1 CCA Request Template Letter, an original Creditor is MORE likely to be able to supply a true copy of a Credit Agreement than a DCA.

When debts are sold on (...Assigned) to DCA's, they are often done in bulk purchases + not necessarily with ALL the correct documentation.

It therefore follows that a DCA's involvement is NOT always a bad thing, if U know what I mean...;)

 

 

 

 

...And what is the possibillity of catalogue company's actually having an enforcable agreement?
See earlier replies in this Post.

 

 

 

 

I am completely new to this whole CCA path, and i'm rather confused now.

Here is a link to just ONE of the many Threads on the subject, for U to browse through...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements.html

 

Perhaps U could Post back after U've read through it + explain it to me??...:confused:

...in a few months time...:p

 

 

...:)

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Unless U obtained a Copy of YOUR Credit Agreement with Argos, scanned it + Posted it online for peeps to view it, U can't expect peeps to be able to reliably answer your question methinks.

 

Yes, of course....sorry

 

 

Here is a link to just ONE of the many Threads on the subject, for U to browse through...

Consumer Credit Act Agreements

 

Perhaps U could Post back after U've read through it + explain it to me??...:confused:

...in a few months time...:p

 

Know what you mean...started reading that thread a few days ago already. Probably gonna take me a year to get through it, LOL

 

Thanks again for your answers. Will send off for my CCA. My only worry was that my debt's aren't with any DCA's yet, and i was a bit scared they will end up with one. But then, like you said, it might not be bad either.

Edited by jellybabe
Smileys ended up wrong?
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sorry, forgot to include this in my last post.

What exactly is a bona fide debt?I tried to google it and also tried to look it up on here, but couldn't find a proper explanation.

Maybe just a point in the right direction would help me.

:)

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For Bona Fide......read LEGAL...:wink:

 

Thanks MilkTrayMan

 

Got my Letter requesting CCA ready and got my Postal Order.

Haven't handled many PO's before.....do i have to cross them or leave them the way they are. And do i have to write any thing specific on the back? Obviously my name and adress have to go on the back ( i would have thought), but have i got to say something like...only for CCA request...??

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Haven't handled many PO's before.....do i have to cross them or leave them the way they are.

Leave the PO as it is.

Personally I would have asked a friend/family member to give me one of their cheques for £1.

This would enable U to find out EXACTLY when it was cashed + also NOT provide them with a copy of your signature, so that they CANNOT re-constitute a 'made-up' Credit Agreement...;)

...do i have to write any thing specific on the back?

The account no. to which the 'alleged' debt/Credit Agreement related to should suffice.

Obviously my name and adress have to go on the back ( i would have thought)

This would be contained in the CCA Request Letter.

have i got to say something like...only for CCA request...??

It is VERY important to contain this in your CCA Request Letter.

Otherwise, the Creditor could say that it was a payment towards reducing the 'alleged' debt balance

 

 

...:)

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you know what....i think you're right. no...i know you are right. I will keep the postal orders for now. Might need them for ebay or whatever one day. Will send a cheque instead.

Regarding signatures on the postal order...there isn't a place to sign on them anyway. They are the new style PO's.?

Thanks again my Knight in shining armor :D

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Will send a cheque instead.

NOT one of your own...;)

Regarding signatures on the postal order...there isn't a place to sign on them anyway. They are the new style PO's.?

PO's do NOT need a signature...They NEVER have done.

Peeps have used them to send their £1 CCA Request if they don't have access to a cheque book, or so as NOT to supply a copy of their signature.

...The alternative that I have suggested, combines the merits of both, plus access to finding out IF they have been cashed also...;)

 

 

...:)

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Nope, not one of my own,LOL.

I have got a joint bank account with my hubby and wondered if he could sign the cheque for it. But maybe that wouldn't be good either, as we are pursuing Argos for his account aswell. And if he signs the cheque maybe those clever/or not so clever ***** have then got his signature.

We'll see, might ask someone else instead or go back to the PO.

PO's do NOT need a signature...They NEVER have done.

Told you, LOL, haven't handled many of those yet. :rolleyes:

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...just sent my letter off to Argos by 1st class recorded.

It may help other peeps if U were to mention WHICH address U sent your letter to + also HOW U made the £1 payment??...;)

 

 

 

 

...OMG....only just started and panicking already.
No need to panic, just so long as U have remembered to include the VERY important NEW info contained
, in your CCA Request Letter...:p

 

 

...:D

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Sorry once again. :o

 

I made the payment by Postal Order and sent teh Letter to:

Argos Card Services

Royal Avenue

Widnes

WA88 1AL

Will give 'em 2 days and then i start counting down to 12. :D

 

No need to panic, just so long as U have remembered to include the VERY important NEW info contained
, in your CCA Request Letter...:p

You had me worrying for a tiny bit. Thought i forgot something in my letter and then i saw the Vid. LOL! :eek:

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is the 8th working day, still counting.

No Signature for the letter yet on Royal Mail. They are Bl***y useless.From 7 letters i've sent to my creditors i only had 4 signatures and only 1 electronic proof of delivery.

Will wait for my Statement to see if they have credited my account with the £1. Knowing them, they probably did.

Got my S.A.R. ready aswell, will send that off next week with a few of my others.

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Little Update. Postman just knocked. I know what you think...but nooooo....he only delivered my/and Husbands CCA.

Look like normal Computer Printouts, no name, adress or signature. Just a blank form. Well, 8 of them. Called: Enclosure 1 (4 pages stapled together), and Enclosure 2 (4 pages stapled together). They state in the letter that the following:

"Regulation3 provides that the copy may omitcertain information, including the signature box and your name and adress."How am i supposed to know if it's mine then, without all those details.

Smelling fishy...me thinks!

 

Here is the letter i received:

[imghttp://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/jellybabe26/th_ArgosCCaReply1.jpg[/img]

[imghttp://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm51/jellybabe26/th_ArgosCCaReply2.jpg[/img]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Been trying for the last 2 hrs now to Link somehow to my pdf files with the scanned cca, but can't do it???

I uploaded them to Photobucket, but i think they worked out to be unreadable (too small).Anyone know how i can put a link in here for my pdf files??

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