Disciplinary Hearing Thursday 5th June

[vonnie32]

Hope this makes some sense and not a mad rant!

 

I have received notice of a formal disciplinary hearing this Thursday the 5th June.

 

The disciplinary is in relation to events that happened in the beginning of April (when we moved office) the letter states "The disciplinary hearing is in relation to the events of the x April 2008 and in particular, confidential files and equipment being left unsecured"

 

I have admitted that I left the files and equipment unsecured but at the investigation stage both myself and my colleague who was also present on the day gave evidence that we attempted repeatedly to secure the office but without any luck.

 

The place was a building site with significant works still being undertaken (the manager had decided to move the date forward so he knew this would be the case) the builders still needed access to the office and no-one was available to handover keys or point us to someone who could help.

 

 

My arguement is that the building was not fit for either myself or my colleague to actually be working in as there were no toilets, heating, phone lines, electricity or ventilation, in fact it didn't have a completion certificate as there were no fire safety signs, no directions to fire exits, no fire safety equipment and I doubt if the fire alarm was working! I informed my manager of the situation - what else could I have done?

 

 

 

I've worked for the organisation for 5 years with no previous disciplinary or practice issues. I did however raise a formal grievance against my line manager a couple of months back, so this seems to me to be a very tit for tat situation.

 

What do you think my chances are with my Health and Safety Arguement? -

Any help, advice or assistance would be very much appreciated folks - I can't focus on anything else and everytime I shut my eyes this just gives me nightmares!

 

Thanks

 

Vonnie x

 

PS I will post about the gievance situation seperately:?

Edited June 2, 2008 by vonnie32
too much information given

[magic28]

hi there

sorry to hear about your disaplinary, im also going through one tomorrow but its for something completely different to yours.

im so nervous about mine so i know just how you will be feeling.

i think you have a good case regarding the health and safety thing.

good luck

[vonnie32]

Thanks Magic, hope your goes OK too, it's not easy to put to one side when you don't know what's going to happen with your future!

 

I do hope the health and safety bit is worth persuing, but time will tell.

Best of luck

[magic28]

thanks vonnie keep posting and i will do the same.

t c

[zarakhan07]

Hi there

 

I have been through a disciplinary hearing and mine ended on termination of my contract but it is unfair dismal, so i am apealling.

 

Please check this website: (edited)

 

This site gives you free advice via e-mail or phone and you can ask them anything regarding your case and they anwser you free.

 

Goodluck to both of you and don't stress.

Edited June 1, 2008 by Bigmac versus
Removed Link to comm.site.

[vonnie32]

I have been told by ACAS that unless their disciplinary letter states dismissal is an option, if they then dismiss me I can go straight to an employment tribunial for unfair dismissal?

 

I think my manager is stating that I never informed him of the key situation, but he was in a meeting most of the day and I left messages for him to contact me and I informed him when he did contact me.

 

They have not provided me with the evidence to prove that I did not contact him - should I request this?

[vonnie32]

I phoned in sick today as I just couldn't face going in a facing my manager - he has now got my colleague to phone me at home and question me about work related matters - my colleague advised him that we had spoken earlier this morning and in their opinion I was very distressed and should they be calling if I am off with work related stress?

I've basically told them I am too stressed to deal with anything related to work today, hence the reason I called in sick! This has just made me feel worse than I already did - if that's at all possible:mad:

[Allwood]

Hi, it awful at work today re the credit crunch etc employers want to save money and the best way to do that is to get rid of staff.

 

vonnie32, as you have phoned your manager re the security issue, and you will have evidence of this by way of your telephone bill therefore they cannot dispute that you have made the call.

 

Do not worry too much as it can have devastating effects on your health and that is no joke you health comes first.

[vonnie32]

Thanks Allwood

 

Finance isn't the issues here it's the Manager who has taken a dislike to me and is flexing his muscle cause I'm usually quite good at standing up for myself and he doesn't like that.

 

I've now had a quick call from a solicitor who advised to raise another grievance about the health and safety matters which should to some extent protect me with the grievance. But they said it could still be considered gross misconduct!

[vonnie32]

I'm also going to fire off a letter requesting the evidence they intend to present against me - including any witness statements and request an postponement to allow me to recieve this information and prepare my defence!

[vonnie32]

Ok have done the letter to request the postponement while I await their evidence. Can anyone have a look and see what they think i need to post and e-mail it tomorrow? thanks

 

3rd June 2008

Dear Mr nice person

Re: Disciplinary Interview – Thursday 5th June 2008

Following your letter advising me of the above Disciplinary Interview I would like further clarity on the allegations made against me prior to attending.

Please confirm that I will receive any witness statements and notes of investigation so that I may have been given a fair and reasonable opportunity to prepare my defence.

I understand this may mean you will need to reschedule the meeting, in which case I look forward to receiving a minimum of 48 hours notice of this new date and time.

I would also like to express my concerns that this hearing has been scheduled whilst I have a grievance outstanding, which is directly related to the events I am being asked to attend the Disciplinary Interview for.

Best wishes,

Mrs nice person

[vonnie32]

I have also had some legal advice and they suggest raising another grievance in relation to the health and safety matters ie no risk assessment, no health and safety plan and no completion/habitation cert.

 

Do you think this is a good idea or is it going to antagonise the situation?

 

Thanks in advance

 

xxxx

[prushton]

Hi , I am a shop steward, I have just been reading your thread regarding the situation that you find yourself in. Firstly, you have the right prior to the commencement of a disciplinary hearing to be furnished with the details of the case against you, including access to documentation in support of the managements case.This is done so that you are able to formulate your defence in advance of the disciplinary hearing.

 

If you have not been given this information, or they try to introduce evidence during the hearing that you have not seen in advance , you should call a halt to the hearing.

 

when you go into the hearing, if you have not been given this information then you should notify them that you will not continue with the proceedings until such times as you have been given this information and adjourn the meeting until a future date. They cannot do anything about this and have to agree to a postponement until they have given you this information.

 

Regarding the securing of documents, was this usually part of your job description? clearly the building was unfit for occupation, there were as you admit various health and safety breaches.

 

You took demonstrable steps ( BY PHONE ) to contact your boss to inform him of the situation, yet your calls were not returned, you left messages on the answer phone ( although I suspect that these will have been erased by now) There were no keys to secure the building with, and attempts to establish their whereabouts proved unfruitful.

 

All in all, this hardly paints a picture of recklessness on your part. The offices were clearly not fit for occupation and you took reasonable steps to inform your boss of the situation. When you look at in these terms, you clearly do not have a case to answer.

[vonnie32]

Thanks so much prushton. Your saying all the things I have been thinking but head such a mess with all of this.

 

I've had no reply to my e-mail and letter requesting the meeting be cancelled to furnish me with any evidence and I have also asked for the health and safety questions to be answered.

 

I don't have any line management responsibility yet my colleague who was also there on the day is not being disciplined over this matter (they also are a key holder for the office) and her statement backs up what I said happened on the day.

 

The only difference I can see is that she has not raised a grievance against the manager and I have! so he is flexing his muscle and victimising me and I'm not having it.....

 

Thanks again and will post later to let you know how I get on.

 

Vonnie

[prushton]

If you have not had any confirmation of postponement of the proceedings, then I would attend at the date and time ( with union representation) and imediately inform them there and then that you will not continue with the proceedings and that a new date should be set for the near future.

 

The reason for this is that they failed to follow the basic statutory disciplinary proceedures as set out by ACAS and until such times as you receive the information you require in advance of any future proceedings you will not participate in any disciplinary proceedings.

 

You said that your colleague had key holder responsibilities, yet they are not being disciplined, clearly this is victimization as a result of you submittting a grievance against your manager, when you do attend ( with union representation ) you should get the union rep to point out that this is the case and that should there be a need to take things to an industrial tribunal then the tribunal would possible come to the same conclusion.

 

The tribunal would note that you did not have key holder responsibilty, your colleague had and yet they were not the subject of disciplinary proceedings. Clearly you have been treated in a less favourable way than your colleague. If you have good representation at the meeting then you should wipe the floor with them , they have not got a leg to stand on.

 

P.s make sure that the meeting is correctly minuted and ask for a copy of these minutes ( it will all help should there be a need to go to an employment tribunal)

Edited June 5, 2008 by prushton
add comment

[vonnie32]

Hi prushton

 

I turned up for the meeting on Thursday with my colleague ( not an official member of the Union yet) and the meeting had been cancelled. They had said this was due to me calling in sick, I've now found out it was cancelled on Tuesday. I confirmed my willingness to attend on Wed via e-mail with all 3 people (I couldn't speak on the phone as I am so stressed out with it all and feeling constantly sick). But asked for a postponement to gain the evidence and health and safety stuff I requested.

Went to solicitors that afternoon and I basically fell to pieces. He is going to review my case but thinks I could possibly go for constructive dismissal and take them to tribunial or he could negiotiate my way out.

 

It's a very small organisation and with this manager at the helm folk who've been around for a decade and more are all jumping ship.

[vonnie32]

Oh and I e-mailed them yesterday to say very disappointed and upset about no notificiation of cancelation and I basically got back a lengthy reply saying it was my fault for not confirming on time - but their letter didn't state if I had to confirm by a particular date and they had already cancelled by the Tuesday.

 

Grrrrrrrrrrrr I'm stressed enough without this!

 

Oh also had letter today saying

 

1. They will postpone my disciplinary until my grievance appeal hearing has been heard and concluded.

2. The information I have requested that is directly related to the disciplinary matter will be sent to me in due course.

 

I will get the evidence and additional information once they are writing to set a new date - Eh I don't think so - surely I am entitled to this just now?

 

Sorry if I'm ranting but I am so stessed out with all of this all running at the same time and being given the run around.

 

thanks again

[vonnie32]

Been to the Docs he said I have all the classic signs of stress - so signed off for a while. Sick line states work related stress.

 

At least this will give me some time to look for something else.

 

Vonnie xxx

[prushton]

You should not have to wait for this information , if they were going to conduct a diciplinary hearing then they would have already compiled the evidence they required to substantiate their claims already .

 

They should provide you with this information imediately, there is no reason, despite an ongoing grievance to withhold this information, perhaps it would help them to send this information to you quicker if you pointed out to them that they are in breach of the statutory minimium disciplinary code of practice according to ACAS and that should your case go to an industrial tribunal any failure to adhere to this statutory minimium requirement would in the case of wrongful dismissal be ruled automatically unfair and that any financial reward is likely to be increases by upto 50 %. Take a look at ACAS web site for further information regarding not following statutory minimium proceedures and tribunals.

Edited June 9, 2008 by prushton
disregard link below dont know how that got there

[vonnie32]

Thanks Prushton I will take a look at that tomorrow and start planing my next letter to them that will also include a request for the policy on bullying and discrimination (which doesn't exist).

[vonnie32]

Ok, been off for 3 weeks and asked my doc to sign me back to work (at which he was absolutely astonished considering the stressors had not been addressed - I must be very mad or very brave!)

 

Anyway I've received none of the information I requested on the 4th June, nothing was mentioned about when I would receive this when I returned to work and I've now been told it's likely to be at least August before my grievance appeal is heard.

 

I've been told in a round about way by another manager not to worry about the disciplinary (which is easier said than done) that it will not be as bad an outcome as I think it might be (which sounds to me that they have already chosen my punishment without hearing my defence!)

 

My rep has advised just to hold my hands up admit my guilt and take whatever is coming to me???? (they think if I defend then they will up my punishment - punishment for what? Being made to work in a building that was uninhabitable?)

 

ARGGHHHHH

[Bookworm]

So what's the date for the hearing now? (I need to change your title or people will ignore it thinking it's over!)

[c_allen]

hi, did this go anywhere? is it still proceding?